The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Lock and Load: Live Fire Exercises

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 9, 2015, 01:21 PM   #1
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,930
Minimum reliable range for testing rifle loads?

So far I have developed all my loads using the OCW method and it has largely worked out for me.

I have always shot them at targets 100m away.

I'd like to do the latest lot tomorrow but it is a bit windy and my range's design means the 100m range is quite exposed to cross-winds. In the same area but far more protected by high walls close to the target area is the 50m range.

Obviously the variation between groups will be less pronounced but is there any reason I could not use the 50m range, sheltered from the breeze to find my new charge weight?
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old April 9, 2015, 03:51 PM   #2
Limnophile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2015
Location: Issaquah, Washington
Posts: 975
I don't see why not. Given stable bullet trajectories over at least 100 m, the groups should be identical at 50 m and 100 m in terms of minutes of angle, so if your group sizes between loads vary enough to reliably measure at 50 m it will work. Eliminating the influence of the wind, especially if it is gusting and not consistent from group to group, is helpful.
Limnophile is offline  
Old April 9, 2015, 08:14 PM   #3
4runnerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
I do all my load testing at 300 yards min. I have seen to many loads that shoot one hole at 100 yards go south at 300.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO
NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional
4runnerman is offline  
Old April 15, 2015, 11:03 AM   #4
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 7,481
Accuracy in MOA typicaly gets bigger as range gets longer; typically 10 to 20 percent more for each 100 yards/meters past the first one. With one exception.

Some barrels whip such that slower bullets leave at a slightly higher muzzle axis angle than faster ones. That compensates for their down-range drop. Longer ranges will show better accuracy than shorter ones.
__________________
US Navy Distinguished Marksman Badge 163
Former US Navy & Palma Rifle Team Member
NRA High Power Master & Long Range High Master
NRA Smallbore Prone Master
Bart B. is offline  
Old April 16, 2015, 08:50 PM   #5
skizzums
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
I honestly feel like 100 yards is a minimum. I have lots of loads that will shoot one hole at 50 yards only to end up being 2 moa at 100 yards. especially with PCC's, obviously, but also things like 300BLK etc. I can get less than half inch groups with lightweight .223 only to end up past MOA at 100. my 54R is anther example of that. hell, I guess that I think about it, theres not really any of my caliber that can give me a reliable reading at fifty that will transition to doubl at 100yard, then 200 yards etc. but I will say, with my .223 anyway, if I am at 1.5MOA at 100, that will usually stay true out to 300. but at 50, I can actually put them through the same general hole, so not a good indicator......that's my experience anyway
__________________
My head is bloody, but unbowed
skizzums is offline  
Old May 14, 2015, 08:21 PM   #6
monk d
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2015
Posts: 13
I agree with the 100yd minimum too, but if you have the place to shoot out to 2, 3, 400 or more, then you would really be able to get a better read. Keep in mind that 4 inch groups at 400 yds is 1 MOA
monk d is offline  
Old May 17, 2015, 09:00 AM   #7
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,046
As the spaceship designer said, scale models are useful. 100 centimeters to the meter is best.

I have shot at 25 yards and at 600. It depends on what is being tested.
Jim Watson is online now  
Old May 17, 2015, 09:07 AM   #8
hdbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 228
zeroing rifles

Back in 1963 in US ARMY basic training,we were zeroing our M1's at 25 meters. hdbiker
hdbiker is offline  
Old May 18, 2015, 07:56 PM   #9
tobnpr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 4,556
If you have minimum 300 yards available, the ladder test is widely used here.
Makes vertical dispersion you'd never see at 100 yards apparent.

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html
__________________
Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting
07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts
Genuine Cerakote Applicator
www.biggorillagunworks.com
tobnpr is offline  
Old May 18, 2015, 08:17 PM   #10
rtpzwms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: OTS
Posts: 1,023
if the wind is consistent you can make adjustments for it easily. The wind in the desert is often 35+ mph and I still shoot 100 yard minimum with a rifle. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're doing bench rest testing. If so you should just wait for a better day. Other wise just go and shoot.

If you want to get an idea of how much it will change your targeting you may find this helpful.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-re...ics-calculator
__________________
Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want.
rtpzwms is offline  
Old May 19, 2015, 12:05 AM   #11
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,930
Quote:
If you have minimum 300 yards available, the ladder test is widely used here.
300m is my max range here, not minimum!!

Quote:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're doing bench rest testing.
Nope!!
Prone rifle shooting only. Now that I have some loads worthy of further testing I will probably take them out to 300m and see how they perform.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 22, 2015, 05:06 PM   #12
tobnpr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2010
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 4,556
Quote:
300m is my max range here, not minimum!!
300 is fine for ladder testing. Give it a "shot"....
__________________
Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting
07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts
Genuine Cerakote Applicator
www.biggorillagunworks.com
tobnpr is offline  
Old May 24, 2015, 07:00 AM   #13
Snyper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2013
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,047
Quote:
Nope!!
Prone rifle shooting only.
When working up loads, it's preferable to use a bench to eliminate as much human error as possible
__________________
One shot, one kill
Snyper is offline  
Old May 24, 2015, 01:37 PM   #14
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,930
I could ask them if they'd allow me to shoot seated, but then I've shot all my test loads prone so far, so at least it would be consistent.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old May 24, 2015, 05:11 PM   #15
COSteve
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2009
Posts: 1,221
First, let me say that I'm no bullseye shooter and never have been. That said, I like to test my loads at 200 yds off the bench with bags (don't have a sled). When I find a promising combo, I like to confirm them at 300 yds as I've also been fooled by 100yd performance before. However, my 'long range' shooting is limited to 400-450 or so yds by my skill level and eyesight.
__________________
Steve

“Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.” - Confucius
"When you find a find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it." - Dilbert
COSteve is offline  
Old June 16, 2015, 08:11 AM   #16
Husqvarn
Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2015
Posts: 39
Why change what works for you?
I´ll sight in my 308 with the hunting round I´ll be useing at 50m then out at 100m for Point of aim. Most shots are not going too be much over that distance and if they are I know the drop is not going to be that much.
Husqvarn is offline  
Old June 17, 2015, 09:59 AM   #17
wizrd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2012
Posts: 187
Spend some time shooting in those 35 mph crosswinds. At 200 yards the drift will surprise you. Could mean the difference between a lifetime trophy or a shot 'AT' - a lifetime trophy.
__________________
Sumo magis ammo
wizrd is offline  
Old July 9, 2015, 12:04 PM   #18
Mobuck
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Posts: 6,846
Are you looking for your maximum load or for the most accurate load? Max loads only need a safe direct of flight and space to set up the Chronograph.
Mobuck is offline  
Old July 9, 2015, 05:11 PM   #19
Roadkill2228
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 8, 2014
Location: Nipawin, Saskatchewan
Posts: 311
Bart B....is the phenomenon you speak of the same thing some people talk about when the refer to some bullets "going to sleep"?
Roadkill2228 is offline  
Old July 9, 2015, 11:27 PM   #20
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 5,930
Quote:
the most accurate load
This was an accuracy test. I did it at 100m in the end.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old July 10, 2015, 12:43 AM   #21
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 16,046
Roadkill,

What Bart describes is the real world of shooting, the opposite of the "sleepy bullet" school that finds bullets getting more accurate as they go along.

Anybody who thinks that really happens should contact Bryan Litz who will help them demonstrate it under controlled conditions.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/foru...llenge-144359/
Jim Watson is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08846 seconds with 10 queries