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Old February 14, 2020, 09:56 PM   #51
reynolds357
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Originally Posted by stagpanther View Post
Back on subject--I want to shoot some handloads tomorrow for the model 70--but it's headed to 22 below zero tonight in parts of Maine.
Be a good opportunity to test powder temp sensitivity.
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Old February 15, 2020, 08:51 AM   #52
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Be a good opportunity to test powder temp sensitivity.
I already have problems with that--so much so that I've had to shorten timing between shots and keep cartridges "pre-warmed"--basically the opposite of what you do in warm temperatures. It's amazing how much loss in velocity I've seen, some temperature sensitive powders lose 200 fps or more once I get down in the low teens to single digits. As cold as it is today, it's relatively calm and it's going to get stormy again starting tomorrow, so I will go out later this morning (assuming the truck starts, LOL). Thermometer says -2 but should hopefully climb with the sun out.
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Old February 15, 2020, 02:14 PM   #53
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Well, I called an executive meeting with the owner--it was his dad's gun so it was his decision to make. My opinion is that the original winchester stock was simply too thin in the areas that would need to be ground out to allow enough room to substantively to allow for meaningful thickness of bedding and material. Or, put another way, I felt it was beyond my skills to succeed in getting enough rigidity while at the same time time allow enough room to truly free float the barrel and adequately reinforce the pillars and lug bed.







So I ended up taking the easy way out--I recommended that he could use a hogue overmolded stock which includes a full-length aluminum bed and reinforced pillars and lug bed. If he or his daughter ever want to put the original stock back on, it's an easy switch-out. While I was at it, I also pulled the scope bases and Leupold dovetail rings and replaced them with winchester's own model 70 1-piece intregal base/rings. This had the added benefit that it gained me a few extra mm's in scope height so I was able to just barely clear the magnification ring throw lever, so I was free to move the scope into a natural position avoiding head squirming. The rings are not as tough as the others and probably will be pounded out of true faster, but they usually have me check them before they go on a hunt.
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File Type: jpg IMG_2714.jpg (59.7 KB, 73 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2713.jpg (59.7 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2712.jpg (40.8 KB, 70 views)
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Old February 15, 2020, 02:37 PM   #54
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Here she is in her new-found glory. I know you pursuits will scream heresy--but I feel pretty good about the rifle being up to the bashing around in the woods and foul weather. Fit, rigid support and free-float are perfect as far as I can tell.



The weather is pretty stormy of late, so I went out this morning in a rare sunny break. Unfortunately it was pretty cold, 8 degrees above zero, so I'll have to redo the zero when it gets warmer. My labradar battery was too spent to handle the cold, so no velocity measurements either. Winds were gusting from about my 5 o'clock at 10 to 15. Of all things to fail--the liner of my thick wool gloves blew out on my shooting hand glove, so my fingers got numb pretty quick, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.

The owner wants the gun zeroed at 200 with Weatherby's 150 partition factory load--problem is I used up the last three cartridges I had getting the scope back on target at 200 since everything had changed from the previous set-up. Just out of curiosity I loaded up my own handloads using barnes LRX 129 gr all-copper boattails which I suspect could probably do anything the 150 partitions could. I didn't bother doing a ladder, just selected a moderately warm load I figured would do OK. Had it not been for the one flier lower left this would have been a bettr group--I was pretty surprised it was good as it is considering all the gear and thick gloves etc I had to mess with. I would fork over $800 in heartbeat to the owner for the gun if he'd take it--it outshoots his newer Weatherby's IMO.



About the trijicon scope: The sight piece really takes some getting used to--they recommend using with both eyes open--but my left eye has issues so I have a hard time with that with this particular optic, though it's less of an issue with unmagnified reddots. I trued and leveled the scope to take out any cant but the reticle seems to really cant to the side, so I always doubt myself when I do the job and then go out in the field and things look off. But I trusted the level, and tracking was excellent.
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File Type: jpg 270WM129LRX73magpr.jpg (149.7 KB, 68 views)
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Last edited by stagpanther; February 15, 2020 at 05:43 PM.
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Old February 15, 2020, 11:19 PM   #55
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The trick to Wby is finding the right seat depth. You find it and most of them will really shoot.
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Old February 16, 2020, 08:22 AM   #56
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Be a good opportunity to test powder temp sensitivity.
On that note, even though it's not known for temperature insensitivity--accurate magpro did very well in terms of consistency in extreme cold in what few test cartridges I threw together.
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Old February 16, 2020, 05:20 PM   #57
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The glory is inherent in the Walnut stock. The plastic stock? Not so much. But whatever the owner likes is what matters.
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Old February 16, 2020, 07:02 PM   #58
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The glory is inherent in the Walnut stock. The plastic stock? Not so much. But whatever the owner likes is what matters.
I didn't think I could get the walnut stick to hold the receiver steady and free-float the barrel as thin as it is. Anyways, if the owner wants to show the rifle off he can always switch the stocks.
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Old February 16, 2020, 11:43 PM   #59
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Well, since you have 2 stocks for it now, it would be interesting to see what would happen if you worked up an accurate load in the synthetic free-float stock and then switched back to the original stock to see how it would do with that load.
I'm thinking that the rifle would probably shoot very well in the original stock using Nosler 150 grain Partition bullets fueled with a near max charge of Norma MRP.
I also think that 100 yards is a great range to evaluate an iron-sighted, lever-action rifle in calibers typical to that platform. But for a scoped bolt-action rifle like this, 100 yards is utterly meaningless to evaluate a load that is expected to perform at 300-400 yards and perhaps further. I see from your last photo that you have been shooting at 200, which is certainly better than 100....
I gotta hand it to you though; the weather conditions you are going out in are frigidly challenging! After spending six winters in northern Vermont and seeing what sub-arctic conditions do to challenge vehicles, chainsaws, log-skidders, and everything else.... well it just makes me appreciate that you are out there in those conditions. Anything that you can achieve now, you can almost certainly do better under more favorable conditions without any other changes. I'd recommend 300 yards to evaluate the rifle and ammo, when you get a favorable opportunity.

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Old February 17, 2020, 02:55 AM   #60
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But for a scoped bolt-action rifle like this, 100 yards is utterly meaningless to evaluate a load that is expected to perform at 300-400 yards and perhaps further. I see from your last photo that you have been shooting at 200, which is certainly better than 100....
It's not my rifle and I only get to play with them once or twice a year. The daughter wants it zeroed to 200 yds--so that's what she gets. The problem with the original wood stock was that it was too flexible in the foreend, and I don't think I could get enough bedding material in it to stiffen it up without routing out a lot of the wood. That meant the POI shifted pretty easily depending on how it was held/rested. This gun spent a lot of time in wet coastal environment so it had some warping and deformation in the receiver contact points. I just wasn't up for a significant stock project.

While 100 yds might not be a meaningful distance to evaluate longer range performance of a particular cartridge/rifle; I'd say it's hard to argue it's not a very important cardinal distance for test/development. That said, the beauty of the weatherby mag is I can put a shot in at 25 to 30 yds to calculate the zero and it will likely be almost right on at 200.
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Old February 17, 2020, 09:30 AM   #61
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I am going to (reluctantly) turn over the gun to the owner's daughter this morning. I may shed a tear or two.
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Old February 17, 2020, 12:40 PM   #62
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It is done, sniff sniff.
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Old February 17, 2020, 02:51 PM   #63
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Maybe you should have your own. My motto is that if a man can only have one bolt-action centerfire, it ought to be a model 70 Winchester. Furthermore, he ought to have a pickup truck to go with it.
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Old February 17, 2020, 03:00 PM   #64
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Maybe you should have your own. My motto is that if a man can only have one bolt-action centerfire, it ought to be a model 70 Winchester. Furthermore, he ought to have a pickup truck to go with it.
I offered the guy $700 on the spot--even told him the barrel would need replacing soon--no go. The extreme irony is that post 64 push feeds are now hard to find--something to think about since I've heard head spacing a Mauser claw style bolt requires that it be timed properly to a cutout in the receiver for the extractor, no simple affair from what I understand, especially since the barrel is short-shanked and has to be torqued directly to the receiver. It is otherwise one of the all-time best designs I've seen IMO. For whatever reason (did Weatherby get all proprietary about it?) finding 270 Weatherby Magnums is VERY hard outside of Mark V's--couldn't find them even in Vanguards. It's Roy's first--and probably his all-around best (though that is an endless argument among Weatherby fans)
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Old February 17, 2020, 05:38 PM   #65
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Yeah, but I think the rifle is still better in 30-'06 or 270 Winchester, since it is a 5+1 rifle in standard calibers. I don't think you can beat those two calibers by much and certainly not without compromises. Plus, it will not be hard to find a good one as long as it is a 30-'06 or 270 Winchester. I'm getting 3,000 fps with 150 grain bullets from my 270. It was actually chronographing faster than some guys 7mm Remington magnum; of course that's my optimal handloads versus 7mm factory loads....I've clocked 140's up to 3,285, admittedly too fast with primer pockets getting loose after 2 or 3 firings. Having found the safe pressure boundaries, I have backed off a little bit, maybe a lotta bit. I run the 130's as relatively mild plinking/practice loads, perhaps barely making 3,000 fps or even less. Still, my most accurate load at 300 yards uses that 150 Nosler Partition at 3,000. That should be plenty for North American big game short of Alaskan Brown Bear.
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Old February 17, 2020, 05:47 PM   #66
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It's the mile-long throats that enable Roy to run up the powder charges without upping the pressure.

On your note, I have an old axis which I just took completely apart this morning--rebuilding the bolt and replacing the barrel with a McGowen 24" 270 win barrel.
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Old February 17, 2020, 07:29 PM   #67
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Good! The 270 can really deliver the goods with a 24" barrel, which is what is on my Winchester. With that barrel length, and using optimal powders, I think it's reasonable to expect to get 3,200 fps using 130 grain bullets; 3,100 fps with 140 grain bullets; and 3,000 fps with 150 grain bullets. But these should be considered maximum loads with optimal powders for each bullet weight, and when you reach these speeds over the chronograph, I don't think you should try for any more. With powders having burn rates that are a little faster than optimal, reaching these numbers could be well over maximum pressure.
Accuracy, of course, is to be preferred over highest velocity. The only good reason I can think of at the moment for keeping a load at the red-line is if you find a loading up there that is just too darned accurate to not keep using it, especially if it is a heavier bullet, and then you can put up a few boxes of that recipe and call it your ,"Moose ammo". And for deer season, if you have an accurate 130 grain load that doesn't even make 2,900, who cares? The deer will never know and you don't have to tell your buddies that it's a, "wimpy", load. It might even cause less meat to be damaged.

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Old February 18, 2020, 03:53 AM   #68
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I've done some loads for the 270 Weatherby magnum--if I can get within 150 fps or so with a 270 win load I'd be real happy. I've been very impressed by Barnes 129 LRX.
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Old February 18, 2020, 12:11 PM   #69
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Which powders will you be trying out with that 129 Barnes?
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Old February 18, 2020, 01:01 PM   #70
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I like the idea of an aluminum bedding block but there's a flaw in the thinking. You get a factory stock and it is machine inletted. Leaves room in most to better bed the thing. So get rid of that wood stock and get a plastic stock with an aluminum bedding block, inletted with a machine and tell me what changes? If I were to get an aluminum bedding block stock, I would still bed the action!

I suspect that someone really good a measuring thing's can find difference's in demention's in pretty near every barreled action! Stand's to reason to me that that is why wood stock vary and generally benefit from bedding. All the bedding block will really do is keep wood under the stock screw's from getting soft over the years from cleaning fluid!

Sort of similat to pillars. All the pillar really does is support the action so even if the wood get's soft the action will still only go down to the pillar! Epoxy on the other hand fills spots that are to thin and allows you to cut out humps and fix them. Cleaning fluid can still work on the wood but I have never owned a rifle that that has happened on.

Last edited by Don Fischer; February 18, 2020 at 01:07 PM.
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Old February 18, 2020, 03:55 PM   #71
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Which powders will you be trying out with that 129 Barnes?
Magpro worked quite well with the 270WM--but I think I need something different for just the 270 win.
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Old February 18, 2020, 04:04 PM   #72
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I like the idea of an aluminum bedding block but there's a flaw in the thinking. You get a factory stock and it is machine inletted. Leaves room in most to better bed the thing. So get rid of that wood stock and get a plastic stock with an aluminum bedding block, inletted with a machine and tell me what changes? If I were to get an aluminum bedding block stock, I would still bed the action!

I suspect that someone really good a measuring thing's can find difference's in demention's in pretty near every barreled action! Stand's to reason to me that that is why wood stock vary and generally benefit from bedding. All the bedding block will really do is keep wood under the stock screw's from getting soft over the years from cleaning fluid!

Sort of similat to pillars. All the pillar really does is support the action so even if the wood get's soft the action will still only go down to the pillar! Epoxy on the other hand fills spots that are to thin and allows you to cut out humps and fix them. Cleaning fluid can still work on the wood but I have never owned a rifle that that has happened on.
I've bedded some savage and ruger stocks--but they were mine so it was no pressure if I goofed. I'm not a black-belt ninja stock reworker, so when I looked at this particular stock my gut reaction was "I'm not so sure I can improve things significantly without tons of work" and so I took the easy way out. If the rifle can't do the job (and I know it can) I'll hear about it pretty fast. Maybe I should have got a wood stock instead--but we live on an island on the North Atlantic--so these guns spend time in rain and salt water environment.
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Old February 18, 2020, 10:23 PM   #73
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I have used a bit of Magpro....I think it works best with heavier bullets, but I haven't used enough of it to get a good feel for it yet. Some of the best 270 powders are no longer in production. The best powder I have ever burnt in the 270 is Norma N-205, which I believe hasn't been made in over 40 years, but I've still got some in excellent condition. I have heard that Norma MRP is supposed to be an improved replacement for N-205, so I will be experimenting with it in hopes of good results.
I prefer extruded powders and trickling up to exactly weighed charges for every round. But those ball/spherical propellants throw so darn consistently from the powder measure that it's hard to ignore the speed with which you can put together ammo without weighing every charge. Still, for accuracy testing and especially for maximum loads, I weigh every charge regardless of whether it's a ball powder or not.
I have run some ball powders and the best in 270 for me so far has been Winchester WMR, especially so with 140 grain bullets.
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Old February 19, 2020, 03:53 PM   #74
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I've bought some of new powders which might be good with the 270--but most of them have very little to no data.
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Old February 19, 2020, 07:26 PM   #75
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Stagpanther if you have some imr7828ssc give it a try in the 270. Also hearing rl26 is also good in the 270.
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