CCW Shot by Police - Video

Bartholomew Roberts · July 1, 2018, 09:09 PM

A concealed carry permit holder was attempting to break up a fight in Portland, when he fell to the ground and his pistol fell out of his holster. As he attempted to retrieve the pistol, Portland State University police officers on the scene shot and killed him.

A bystander captured video of part of the situation. I thought there might be some useful insights to be learned.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-street-fight/

briandg · July 1, 2018, 09:43 PM

That was a very bad situation. The guy with the gun made mistakes. the cops all made mistakes. Here goes another catastrophic period.

Model12Win · July 1, 2018, 11:16 PM

Don't attempt to break up fights. That is where he went wrong. Looked to me like someone just had to play the hero and try and intervene with a bunch of drunks. When you're armed and carrying, these types of situations are textbook example of ones to avoid, and any good trainer will tell you that. The fact that this was done with a cop a couple of feet away is even more perplexing, let him handle it!

The sooner people understand the SELF in self-defense (unless your family and friends are involved), the better.

KY_blkout · July 1, 2018, 11:36 PM

Definitely shouldn't have involved himself in that scuffle unless that was a close friend or relative involved. One thing I noticed was how his weapon almost looked like it was loosely hanging on his shorts. Seemed like a holster retention problem. The police could have probably handled it better but the guy seemed to have brought his problems upon himself from the video.

MTT TL · July 2, 2018, 12:22 AM

Can't tell a whole lot what was going on there but it looked to be a terrible job by the police of taking control of the situation and making people behave like adults.

Some lessons I would go with:

- Use a proper holster with an active retention device
- Don't involve yourself in confrontations that don't concern you, especially if the police are around
- Don't get in to physical altercations and drunken brawls
- If you find yourself in one anyway and the police show up then withdraw, retreat and reassess
- Don't have a gun in your hand during a brawl with a bunch of police around

mete · July 2, 2018, 01:48 AM

Poor choices. Rule is , even for cops, is the first uniformed officer arriving takes command . Never have a gun in hand when cops arrive. Easy for them to assume anyone with a gun is the enemy [safer too ]. Entering any brawl fueled with booze and drugs is dangerous .
Put the gun away and back out of the scene .

briandg · July 2, 2018, 06:30 PM

the worst thing about this situation is that one unusual and abnormal incident is going to be used to create policy.

Mainah · July 2, 2018, 08:24 PM

I spend plenty of time surfing news sites, this is the first time I’ve seen this story. Recent protest violence in Portland got much more coverage. I’m sorry the guy was killed.

MTT TL · July 2, 2018, 09:22 PM

He was shot by the police while doing something dumb even though he was not an active threat to the police at the time.

But he was white.

Not much of a news story there in 2018.

**Frank Ettin** · July 2, 2018, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTT TL

...even though he was not an active threat to the police at the time.

How do you know? More to the point, how would the officer know at the time. Your imagined knowledge is based on information collected only after the incident.

What matters, however, is how a reasonable and prudent LEO would have perceived things at the time based on the information he had at the time. And what the cop probably saw, based on what the video shows, is a guy involved in a scuffle who picked up a gun and didn't immediately comply with an order to drop the gun. So while the guy who got shot might not have had the intention of being a threat to the cop, he looked like one.

A cop, or anyone else, isn't a mind reader. He can only infer someone's intentions from that person's actions. If someone looks like a threat he will be treated as a threat.

None of us has "certified good guy" tattooed on our forehead.

MTT TL · July 3, 2018, 06:48 AM

Quote:

How do you know?

Haven't seen the "somebody knocked my gun loose so I better pick it up and run away from the police to get a better vantage point from which to shoot them from trick" before. I guess it is possible just like all things are possible. I'd say its a very low probability event.

Quote:

how would the officer know at the time

He likely wouldn't as there are too many moving parts in his field of view; but like we have seen so many times in the past few years that fact hasn't stopped all the protests and ridiculous media stories that so often crop up after the fact.

These days the expectation is perfection, understandable since lives are at stake. Anything less than perfection is proof of incompetence, failures of leadership and/ or racism and especially grounds for a lawsuit. The dynamics don't play for racism here so... no big media story. It doesn't help that the victim is not a sympathetic person due to his continuing to engage in dumb behavior after the police show up.

MandolinMan · July 3, 2018, 09:29 AM

This is the third story I've seen in the past few weeks where poor firearm retention led to shots being fired. It amazes me that people spend hundreds of dollars on a pistol only to carry it in a $8 nylon holster or no holster at all!

Just last week in a city close to me a guy lost his pistol in an Ikea store while shopping. Apparently it wasn't in holster either and slipped out of his pocket. It was found by some kids who fired a round not knowing it was a real gun. Nobody was hurt, but his carelessness could have cost someone their life.

In the case linked above, I can hardly blame the officers. They see a man with a pistol in hand in the middle of a street brawl and react accordingly. If the man felt he had a civic obligation to help control the situation until the police arrived, that's his prerogative. But as soon as officers arrived on the scene he would have done well to step back and allow them to deal with it.

Just my 0.02 cents

briandg · July 3, 2018, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Just last week in a city close to me a guy lost his pistol in an Ikea store while shopping. Apparently it wasn't in holster either and slipped out of his pocket. It was found by some kids who fired a round not knowing it was a real gun. Nobody was hurt, but his carelessness could have cost someone their life.

This baffles me.

he was carrying it loosely enough that it could fall out. Kinda dumb.

Now the rest of the story is that it fell out and he didn't feel it sliding out of his concealed site? he didn't hear it clunk on those heavy ceramic floors? He wasn't thinking about his gun when he squatted, or did whatever he did to lose it in the first place? He didn't feel the loss of that weight, or the lack of pressure on his waist?

Where in hell was his situational awareness? where was his physical awareness?

Right now I can feel four things in my jeans. Cigar cutter and lighter(not certain about the lighter). Phone and keys, and My wallet. they were there this morning and I can feel that they are still there. Strangely enough, there aren't any cats in the room, but the mail is due and I'll hear it when it's delivered. any hour, any time any day, you could ask me what time it is and I could get it within ten minutes either way, 95% of the time. It's 12:27, I had just estimated it at 12;30

It's hard for most people to divide their attention like this. To reach out with their senses and process the information. In the matter of a heartbeat that openness will be replaced by tunnel vision, obviously.

But back to the problem at hand. I cannot comprehend how a person can "lose" a gun at an Ikea unless he's drunk and doing backflips.

MandolinMan · July 3, 2018, 01:21 PM

The news reports that he was carrying it loose in his pocket without a holster and it fell out while he was trying out couches.

https://www.wibc.com/news/local-news...says-case-weak

FireForged · July 3, 2018, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Haven't seen the "somebody knocked my gun loose so I better pick it up and run away from the police to get a better vantage point from which to shoot them from trick" before. I guess it is possible just like all things are possible. I'd say its a very low probability event.

and you seemingly have allowed a media report to paint the complete picture for you. The video does not show any of what is "speculated" about the gun or what the guy was doing in the moment before the shot was fired. Did he appear to be a danger or an imminent threat to the officer or anyone else?? We don't know [yet]

What matters to me is the evidence and its currently not available in any completed sense. I will reserve judgment until the investigation is complete but if you want to allow a superficial news report to satisfy all your questions about it, I guess you can.

What I will say about what is seen in the video is that the guy seems to have a very poor holster system. It almost looks like its clipped to his pocket. I cringe at the sight of someone OCing in the middle of a brawl.. its a nightmare just waiting to happen.

**Aguila Blanca** · July 3, 2018, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KY blkout

Definitely shouldn't have involved himself in that scuffle unless that was a close friend or relative involved. One thing I noticed was how his weapon almost looked like it was loosely hanging on his shorts. Seemed like a holster retention problem. The police could have probably handled it better but the guy seemed to have brought his problems upon himself from the video.

It looked like he had one of those "clip grip" or "grip clip" thingies, with the pistol just clipped to the pocket of his shorts. That's a really poor way to carry, IMHO, and I felt that way even before seeing this video.

shurshot · July 3, 2018, 06:54 PM

Avoid... Stupid people, stupid places, stupid times of day and stupid things. Life is so much simpler that way.

mete · July 3, 2018, 11:30 PM

The world is not changing for the better . Now we have a phrase that's new to me .
" Police held him at the 'the point of a taser ' "

Glenn E. Meyer · July 4, 2018, 11:02 AM

College reaction - https://www.chronicle.com/article/De...ampaignId=9047

Obviously, the guy who got shot made very bad decisions. I would opine (worth what you paid for it) that the intense emotional situation blocked rational responses and his attentional abilities. Meaning that he was focused on the interaction and when he lost the gun, he could only focus on that. He probably didn't even process the officers' commands during his fixation on retrieving the gun.

We have continuing nighttime fights and gun fights in San Antonio - even in 'nice' areas. Young men out late at night and drinking - you have a diminution of cognitive ability and an enhancement of monkey dance emotions.

jmorris · July 4, 2018, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Avoid... Stupid people, stupid places, stupid times of day and stupid things. Life is so much simpler that way.

Reminds me of the likely drunk FBI thread...

briandg · July 4, 2018, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Young men out late at night and drinking - you have a diminution of cognitive ability and an enhancement of monkey dance emotions.

My god. how well put.

JERRYS. · July 4, 2018, 02:35 PM

do not, DO NOT have in your hand, reach for, or even pretend to go for a gun if the cops are around because they do not know who you are. I am a cop, and I fully expect to be handcuffed et cetera should I get into something off duty until the on duty guys learn who I am AND what part in the fiasco I played.

second, my gun (and my off duty business) is not to stop two alligator mouths from getting their tadpole butts beat up by one another; at that point that's not serious injury or death when its two willing combatants.

briandg · July 4, 2018, 02:42 PM

At what point do you believe that even off duty you should step in and save the guy who has lost and is still taking a serious beating? a punching match doesn't always end with just a bloody nose. Do you still stand aside, as an armed off duty cop, and let the action proceed?

FireForged · July 4, 2018, 03:39 PM

Brian.. If it looks like permanently maiming or life threatening injury is occurring or about to occur, I am sure he would step in as most any off duty LEO would. There is a substantial difference between two willing combatants passing a few licks and a felony offense. Most armed off duty LEOs are not going to jump into the middle of jackassery, they will call it in.

99.99999993845734763 if all fist fights do not result in life threatening injuries. That number is completely made up Im sure you get the point. Although a punch can ( in some instances) cause very serious harm... its exceedingly rare. I wont perpetuate the deadly fist fight folklore.

briandg · July 4, 2018, 06:27 PM

This is what I would hope, and what I would hope most civilians would do. if a serious, bleeding or broken bone injury is in the works, intervene.

As long as it is genuinely two idiots just having a go at each other, yes, let them go at it. maybe nobody will die. but when it changes to only one combatant and one man on the ropes, that's when I believe that it might be time to step in.

https://newspaperarchive.com/joplin-...-11-1993-p-15/

I knew this guy, he was kind of dim, but he was absolutely unbelievable. The guy benched 200. In the seventies, pre steroids. I watched both him and his brother fight, they had learned while in korea with their father who was serving there. So, in case you can't get the article, two people beat the peas out of him and he died later.

No, I couldn't have stopped it, but I wish that someone was there, he was a friend. The guys who killed him have never been found out.

July 1, 2018, 09:09 PM	#1
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	CCW Shot by Police - Video A concealed carry permit holder was attempting to break up a fight in Portland, when he fell to the ground and his pistol fell out of his holster. As he attempted to retrieve the pistol, Portland State University police officers on the scene shot and killed him. A bystander captured video of part of the situation. I thought there might be some useful insights to be learned. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...-street-fight/

July 1, 2018, 09:43 PM	#2
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	That was a very bad situation. The guy with the gun made mistakes. the cops all made mistakes. Here goes another catastrophic period. __________________ None.

July 1, 2018, 11:16 PM	#3
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Don't attempt to break up fights. That is where he went wrong. Looked to me like someone just had to play the hero and try and intervene with a bunch of drunks. When you're armed and carrying, these types of situations are textbook example of ones to avoid, and any good trainer will tell you that. The fact that this was done with a cop a couple of feet away is even more perplexing, let him handle it! The sooner people understand the SELF in self-defense (unless your family and friends are involved), the better. Last edited by Model12Win; July 1, 2018 at 11:35 PM.

July 2, 2018, 12:22 AM	#5
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	Can't tell a whole lot what was going on there but it looked to be a terrible job by the police of taking control of the situation and making people behave like adults. Some lessons I would go with: - Use a proper holster with an active retention device - Don't involve yourself in confrontations that don't concern you, especially if the police are around - Don't get in to physical altercations and drunken brawls - If you find yourself in one anyway and the police show up then withdraw, retreat and reassess - Don't have a gun in your hand during a brawl with a bunch of police around __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

July 2, 2018, 01:48 AM	#6
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Poor choices. Rule is , even for cops, is the first uniformed officer arriving takes command . Never have a gun in hand when cops arrive. Easy for them to assume anyone with a gun is the enemy [safer too ]. Entering any brawl fueled with booze and drugs is dangerous . Put the gun away and back out of the scene . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

July 1, 2018, 11:36 PM	#4
KY_blkout Member Join Date: June 10, 2018 Posts: 67	Definitely shouldn't have involved himself in that scuffle unless that was a close friend or relative involved. One thing I noticed was how his weapon almost looked like it was loosely hanging on his shorts. Seemed like a holster retention problem. The police could have probably handled it better but the guy seemed to have brought his problems upon himself from the video.

July 2, 2018, 06:30 PM	#7
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	the worst thing about this situation is that one unusual and abnormal incident is going to be used to create policy. __________________ None.

July 2, 2018, 08:24 PM	#8
Mainah Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Posts: 1,119	I spend plenty of time surfing news sites, this is the first time I’ve seen this story. Recent protest violence in Portland got much more coverage. I’m sorry the guy was killed.

July 2, 2018, 09:22 PM	#9
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	He was shot by the police while doing something dumb even though he was not an active threat to the police at the time. But he was white. Not much of a news story there in 2018. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

July 3, 2018, 09:29 AM	#12
MandolinMan Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2013 Posts: 339	This is the third story I've seen in the past few weeks where poor firearm retention led to shots being fired. It amazes me that people spend hundreds of dollars on a pistol only to carry it in a $8 nylon holster or no holster at all! Just last week in a city close to me a guy lost his pistol in an Ikea store while shopping. Apparently it wasn't in holster either and slipped out of his pocket. It was found by some kids who fired a round not knowing it was a real gun. Nobody was hurt, but his carelessness could have cost someone their life. In the case linked above, I can hardly blame the officers. They see a man with a pistol in hand in the middle of a street brawl and react accordingly. If the man felt he had a civic obligation to help control the situation until the police arrived, that's his prerogative. But as soon as officers arrived on the scene he would have done well to step back and allow them to deal with it. Just my 0.02 cents __________________ " The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." Col. Jeff Cooper

July 3, 2018, 01:21 PM	#14
MandolinMan Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2013 Posts: 339	The news reports that he was carrying it loose in his pocket without a holster and it fell out while he was trying out couches. https://www.wibc.com/news/local-news...says-case-weak __________________ " The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." Col. Jeff Cooper

July 3, 2018, 06:54 PM	#17
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	Avoid... Stupid people, stupid places, stupid times of day and stupid things. Life is so much simpler that way.

July 3, 2018, 11:30 PM	#18
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	The world is not changing for the better . Now we have a phrase that's new to me . " Police held him at the 'the point of a taser ' " __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

July 4, 2018, 11:02 AM	#19
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	College reaction - https://www.chronicle.com/article/De...ampaignId=9047 Obviously, the guy who got shot made very bad decisions. I would opine (worth what you paid for it) that the intense emotional situation blocked rational responses and his attentional abilities. Meaning that he was focused on the interaction and when he lost the gun, he could only focus on that. He probably didn't even process the officers' commands during his fixation on retrieving the gun. We have continuing nighttime fights and gun fights in San Antonio - even in 'nice' areas. Young men out late at night and drinking - you have a diminution of cognitive ability and an enhancement of monkey dance emotions. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 4, 2018, 02:35 PM	#22
JERRYS. Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,968	do not, DO NOT have in your hand, reach for, or even pretend to go for a gun if the cops are around because they do not know who you are. I am a cop, and I fully expect to be handcuffed et cetera should I get into something off duty until the on duty guys learn who I am AND what part in the fiasco I played. second, my gun (and my off duty business) is not to stop two alligator mouths from getting their tadpole butts beat up by one another; at that point that's not serious injury or death when its two willing combatants.

July 4, 2018, 02:42 PM	#23
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	At what point do you believe that even off duty you should step in and save the guy who has lost and is still taking a serious beating? a punching match doesn't always end with just a bloody nose. Do you still stand aside, as an armed off duty cop, and let the action proceed? __________________ None.

July 4, 2018, 03:39 PM	#24
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	Brian.. If it looks like permanently maiming or life threatening injury is occurring or about to occur, I am sure he would step in as most any off duty LEO would. There is a substantial difference between two willing combatants passing a few licks and a felony offense. Most armed off duty LEOs are not going to jump into the middle of jackassery, they will call it in. 99.99999993845734763 if all fist fights do not result in life threatening injuries. That number is completely made up Im sure you get the point. Although a punch can ( in some instances) cause very serious harm... its exceedingly rare. I wont perpetuate the deadly fist fight folklore. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

July 4, 2018, 06:27 PM	#25
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	This is what I would hope, and what I would hope most civilians would do. if a serious, bleeding or broken bone injury is in the works, intervene. As long as it is genuinely two idiots just having a go at each other, yes, let them go at it. maybe nobody will die. but when it changes to only one combatant and one man on the ropes, that's when I believe that it might be time to step in. https://newspaperarchive.com/joplin-...-11-1993-p-15/ I knew this guy, he was kind of dim, but he was absolutely unbelievable. The guy benched 200. In the seventies, pre steroids. I watched both him and his brother fight, they had learned while in korea with their father who was serving there. So, in case you can't get the article, two people beat the peas out of him and he died later. No, I couldn't have stopped it, but I wish that someone was there, he was a friend. The guys who killed him have never been found out. __________________ None.