Picking brass at range, not allowed!

ninosdemente · September 23, 2018, 10:25 AM

I went to the range yesterday and when I pulled up to an open spot there was a DNR guy picking up some brass and dumping it into a mall coffee container. I know this as I usually go on a Sunday and there is another DNR guy that also picks up for reloading and dumps it into the same container.

Well when I pulled up, I just said to my self, crap he beat me to them, lol. After getting situated and after a box and two, I put my brass away in their boxes. Now after a bit I saw a group putting their stuff away and were done. So as usual I patiently waited before I walked up to that area before picking up. But they were not leaving but were done as the table was already empty. So I walked up to the group and kindly asked is they reload and said no. Then I asked if I could pick up if they didn't want it or need it. They said help yourself, thank them and started picking up.

After a few minutes, the DNR guy was doing their driving around and he noticed me picking up and then proceeded to tell me that people can't be allowed to pick up any more as they are going to use the brass to "sell" and use the money to maintain the place. Just not sure if they were referring to that place specifically or used for other places to maintain or trying to get funds.

He tried to take away the bag I had of collected brass and I told him that he wasn't having it as it had my own brass too. All he said was, ok I'll let you have it for this time.

There were no signs of this so called new rule and the registration table or at the range.

But he sure didn't have any problem picking up specific brass for himself as remember he said they were going to use all that brass to sell for maintenance. I guess he was just like some other authorities that believe that certain rules don't apply to them. I didn't want to say anything because I was with my father and son. Didn't want to ruin their day or mine. So from yesterday, DNR 1 - Me 0, lol.

Anything like this where you go as well? Perhaps, these guys just made the rule so other people don't "steal" the brass but they sure can "steal" the brass that they can use to sell for maintenance money. I say this as there was still a lot of brass from hand gun to rifle brass that were not picked up. As mentioned he picked up from where I was pulling up and left a lot of "unwanted" brass laying around. I just believe there is enough for everyone period. If you beat me to it or I beat you to it, just deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it as I do use the place and it's free. I would have a problem if it were at another range I go to and they didn't allow as they charge at the door. I'm sure there are other people that have been doing this for a very long time who are not going to be much agreeable as I am though. I guess opinions can/will go either side.

Ben Dover · September 23, 2018, 10:34 AM

Many commercial ranges do not allow picking up brass, (even your own) if it hits the floor, it's theirs. Trap clubs are even worse about this than rifle/pistol ranges.

Find another range to use.

**Unclenick** · September 23, 2018, 10:36 AM

It's probably what the DNR officer said. They figured out they can sell it for scrap or they have a local processor willing to sell it as "once-fired", regardless of whether it is multiply-fired or not, and give them a cut.

I would look at the state rules online and maybe call the DNR. If it's true, it's just one more thing that makes the state facilities less attractive to use. There are also a number of commercial facilities that don't allow policing of brass out in front of the firing line, as they use motorized target runners and don't want to have to call ceasefires for people to police brass. They often run a reloading operation of their own that they make money off of.

mikld · September 23, 2018, 10:39 AM

Is the range a club where members pay dues? Or is it a public range where shooters pay a fee? Either way, the excuse "selling brass for range maintenance" is questionable. If selling brass is needed for range upkeep, what are the dues/fees used for? I went to a range that would not "allow" brass to be picked up once it hit the floor, only once, and I left with all my empties (45 ACP). Sorta like taking your car to the races, but leaving all your gas/fuel cans behind...

I may not be fully awake this morning, but what is DNR?

Ben Dover · September 23, 2018, 10:45 AM

DNR
Dept of Natural Resources.

Rifletom · September 23, 2018, 10:53 AM

If the brass belongs to me, I'm picking it up. They can have someone else' brass.
.22's shotgun shells, fine. I sweep them up in a pile, it's theirs.

**Unclenick** · September 23, 2018, 10:58 AM

You won't be picking it up if they kick you off or ban you from the range for trying to do it. A brass catcher or guns that don't eject empties automatically are your best bets.

Rifletom · September 23, 2018, 11:15 AM

That's true. But, It should be posted right up front. That way shooters will know. OP's wasn't posted, either was the one I was at. I no longer go there. Usually go the desert when it isn't too hot.

**Unclenick** · September 23, 2018, 11:29 AM

Agree they should make it clear. Otherwise, as the OP suggests, it seems arbitrary.

Nathan · September 23, 2018, 11:44 AM

I would follow up with the dnr. When the dnr makes a rule, they post it, i’ll bet. When the local range officer makes a rule, he has no authority to make a sign, so it is word of mouth.

I’ve seen local range officers make plenty of “rules”. The state does not generally fund ranges through brass pick up due to the extremely low return on investment, especially if he is picking up by hand. I’m guessing his boss said he could pick it up, if the people left it. Then you as a fellow opportunistic brass scrounger, like me, picked it up.

Our local dnr range had a super unofficial no brass scrounging rule, but you can pick up your own and really as much as you want when shooting. The ro told me he made the rule to keep down the folks coming to scrounge and sell because they would come without paying the fee and practically catch it out of the air with completely disregard for if the shooter wanted it or not....they had some arguments and then came the rule.....you really do have to stop things at arguing or before when parties involved have loaded guns.

marchboom · September 23, 2018, 11:46 AM

If I shoot at a range and MY cases hit the ground I will pick them up and take them back home to reload. They are MY property. I own them. Just hitting the ground does not relieve me of MY ownership rights.

My shotgun hulls go in the trash.

I would find another range if you're not allowed to retrieve your own property.

Metal god · September 23, 2018, 11:47 AM

Quote:

If the brass belongs to me, I'm picking it up

Agreed , You don't get to keep my things , period . What else can I drop that you get to claim is no longer mine if it hits the ground ? Cell phone , loaded ammo , glasses …. ? Not even sure how they think that's legal ? Just because something of mine lands on the floor of your business does not make it yours .

I do agree with the range calling it theres if the original owner left it there and another person is trying to take it . I work at a range that has a ( "if it's on the ground then it's the ranges brass " ) policy but that only applies if the owner left it . For a very short time we tried ( I say we because I volunteer there ) to say if the brass hit the ground it was the ranges property regardless if it was sitting at the feet of the guy who just fired it . There was instant and massive feed back from just about everyone saying that was not expectable , with guys demanding there membership fees be returned .

Are policy now is you not only can keep your brass , you can allow others to pick up your brass to keep . We found there to be very little difference from handing someone the brass off your bench to letting them pick it up off the ground from around your bench . I pick up my buddies brass to keep . How can the range think that's not OK

Quote:

You won't be picking it up if they kick you off or ban you from the range for trying to do it.

That would not be necessary because I would voluntarily leave never to return . Although that would suck if that was the only range that I was able to shoot at . I believe that's when letters start being written and getting others involved would be in order .

ninosdemente · September 23, 2018, 12:36 PM

mikld, this is no club it is a state owned. The good thing about this one is, one doesn't pay to use it. The other I used to go to, is also state owned but you do have to pay. I think it's reasonable. Last time I went with a group of 4, it was close to $20 for the whole day. It wasn't much as children are less. Sure beats having to pay hourly at a indoor gun range.

Unfortunately, those are the only two closest to me that are within an hour drive. If not mistaking the next is 2.5hrs away. So I have no choice but to suck it up deal with it.

ninosdemente · September 23, 2018, 12:48 PM

Unless I do as some other people and try and dig to see if this is true or not.

If the guy banned/kick me off the range, that probably would have been so due to that I would call him out on him actually going to different empty spots and picking up brass that doesn't belong to him either in front of other people. Probably would have felt the need to "use" his power. Lol.

Had no idea that others prohibit, but then again haven't been to one that didn't allow this and have never gone to paid indoor ranges either. I just stay away from indoor ranges period.

RC20 · September 23, 2018, 01:09 PM

Our range operation also has a group they have pick up the brass. I assume its a benfit to the range for the privilege.

There is no issue with picking up your own brass. Picking up someone else has had some conflicts as some get carried away and don't ask.

I will ask if its the caliber and brass mfg I use. Sometimes people offer it up.

Chaparral · September 23, 2018, 02:54 PM

You can't have anything nice!

std7mag · September 23, 2018, 03:05 PM

Local indoor pistol range, if the brass lands in front of the bench, your not allowed to pick up. Regardless of anyone there or not.
One local outdoor range guy shows up and collects brass to turn in for scrap for his own purpose.
Sign says not a member, no admittance.
He's not a member.
Real issue came when he started picking up my brass!

Charlie98 · September 23, 2018, 03:41 PM

I feel fortunate... I shoot at an indoor range that doesn't really care. You tell them you want to try to recover your brass, they push it up to the wall and you can go fetch it when you are done. If your brass lands forward, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else shooting, you can use the rake and pull it back. I don't get stupid with it... all I really ever want to recover is my .45ACP brass, I could care less about the rest.

OP's story reminds me of where I used to shoot in Ohio, at one of the state ranges. One of the scroungers was just about catching my brass as it came out of the pistol, and picking up my .45 brass, too. I called him out on it, he said 'you are shooting 9mm!' so I unholstered my .45 and gave him a glance at the bore. He didn't pick up my brass anymore.

As far as the OP's story, I would make a call. Granted, DNR officers are almost their own Gods, but that sounds like it should be a policy issue. Maybe they are just trying to discourage the scroungers, but for the state to actually say they want to recover scrap brass and try to sell it? That's more trouble than it's worth and I question it's validity.

FITASC · September 23, 2018, 04:18 PM

I can pick mine up if I can find it in the grass. I NEED to just put my big blue tarp in the car and lay it out to make that easier.

buck460XVR · September 23, 2018, 05:22 PM

I would think if it's a legitimate DNR rule, there would be a way to verify. Most state DNRs have "chat lines" or "questions answered" contact methods on their websites. My state's chat line is manned with folks that know what they are talking about or they know where to get the answer. Never had to wait more than a few hours for an answer to any question I have asked. If it's a free range, properly maintained, I can't see snibbling over brass.....but I surely ain't gonna pay for a range and then give 'em my brass too. Fortunately, I have my own private range with my rules........

Brutus · September 23, 2018, 06:14 PM

This is one of the reasons that in my old age I'm gravitating back to revolvers.

Tsquared · September 23, 2018, 07:39 PM

GA DNR has a rule that you cannot solicit or ask another shooter for their brass. It is stated in their list of rules.

You can police your own brass but not others. The RO's will take all unclaimed brass and drop it into a 5 gallon bucket that they keep in their store room. When they have two of them filled they have a vendor that buys the brass. That money goes into a petty cash fund.

Metal god · September 23, 2018, 10:35 PM

Quote:

GA DNR has a rule that you cannot solicit or ask another shooter for their brass.

Haha , so GA feels OK with restricting your 1st amendment rights while you practice your 2nd . err wait what ??????

buck460XVR · September 24, 2018, 08:35 AM

Going to the Indiana DNR webpage on rules for DNR shooting ranges, this is what I found.......

Quote:

Shooters are responsible for picking up
spent brass and all other trash.

....could be different for specific ranges, but the OP did not give the specific range.

kmw1954 · September 24, 2018, 10:23 AM

This question came up not so long ago and when it did I took the time to call or email the 7 different indoor ranges in our area and 2 outdoor pay ranges and then looked at Wisconsin DNR rules.

Not one range had a rule about recovering brass other than a couple would not allow you to enter in front of the firing line for safety reasons. The 2 outdoor ranges both stated you could pick up whatever you wanted so long as the range was cold. Wisconsin DNR site states shooters are responsible for policing the area when finished of all brass and garbage.

I will say though that there is one private club near by that the ground all around the pistol range is covered in old used brass that is crushed and tarnished. I had a near impossible time trying to find my own, I finally gave up both shooting and looking.

September 23, 2018, 10:25 AM	#1
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Picking brass at range, not allowed! I went to the range yesterday and when I pulled up to an open spot there was a DNR guy picking up some brass and dumping it into a mall coffee container. I know this as I usually go on a Sunday and there is another DNR guy that also picks up for reloading and dumps it into the same container. Well when I pulled up, I just said to my self, crap he beat me to them, lol. After getting situated and after a box and two, I put my brass away in their boxes. Now after a bit I saw a group putting their stuff away and were done. So as usual I patiently waited before I walked up to that area before picking up. But they were not leaving but were done as the table was already empty. So I walked up to the group and kindly asked is they reload and said no. Then I asked if I could pick up if they didn't want it or need it. They said help yourself, thank them and started picking up. After a few minutes, the DNR guy was doing their driving around and he noticed me picking up and then proceeded to tell me that people can't be allowed to pick up any more as they are going to use the brass to "sell" and use the money to maintain the place. Just not sure if they were referring to that place specifically or used for other places to maintain or trying to get funds. He tried to take away the bag I had of collected brass and I told him that he wasn't having it as it had my own brass too. All he said was, ok I'll let you have it for this time. There were no signs of this so called new rule and the registration table or at the range. But he sure didn't have any problem picking up specific brass for himself as remember he said they were going to use all that brass to sell for maintenance. I guess he was just like some other authorities that believe that certain rules don't apply to them. I didn't want to say anything because I was with my father and son. Didn't want to ruin their day or mine. So from yesterday, DNR 1 - Me 0, lol. Anything like this where you go as well? Perhaps, these guys just made the rule so other people don't "steal" the brass but they sure can "steal" the brass that they can use to sell for maintenance money. I say this as there was still a lot of brass from hand gun to rifle brass that were not picked up. As mentioned he picked up from where I was pulling up and left a lot of "unwanted" brass laying around. I just believe there is enough for everyone period. If you beat me to it or I beat you to it, just deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it as I do use the place and it's free. I would have a problem if it were at another range I go to and they didn't allow as they charge at the door. I'm sure there are other people that have been doing this for a very long time who are not going to be much agreeable as I am though. I guess opinions can/will go either side.

September 23, 2018, 10:34 AM	#2
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	Many commercial ranges do not allow picking up brass, (even your own) if it hits the floor, it's theirs. Trap clubs are even worse about this than rifle/pistol ranges. Find another range to use. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

September 23, 2018, 10:36 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	It's probably what the DNR officer said. They figured out they can sell it for scrap or they have a local processor willing to sell it as "once-fired", regardless of whether it is multiply-fired or not, and give them a cut. I would look at the state rules online and maybe call the DNR. If it's true, it's just one more thing that makes the state facilities less attractive to use. There are also a number of commercial facilities that don't allow policing of brass out in front of the firing line, as they use motorized target runners and don't want to have to call ceasefires for people to police brass. They often run a reloading operation of their own that they make money off of. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 23, 2018, 10:39 AM	#4
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Is the range a club where members pay dues? Or is it a public range where shooters pay a fee? Either way, the excuse "selling brass for range maintenance" is questionable. If selling brass is needed for range upkeep, what are the dues/fees used for? I went to a range that would not "allow" brass to be picked up once it hit the floor, only once, and I left with all my empties (45 ACP). Sorta like taking your car to the races, but leaving all your gas/fuel cans behind... I may not be fully awake this morning, but what is DNR? __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

September 23, 2018, 10:45 AM	#5
Ben Dover Senior Member Join Date: April 11, 2013 Location: High up in the Rocky Moun Posts: 665	DNR Dept of Natural Resources. __________________ The soldier's pack is not so heavy a burden as the prisoner's chains. Dwight Eisenhower It is very important what a man stands for. But it is far more important what a man refuses to stand for.

September 23, 2018, 10:53 AM	#6
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 786	If the brass belongs to me, I'm picking it up. They can have someone else' brass. .22's shotgun shells, fine. I sweep them up in a pile, it's theirs.

September 23, 2018, 10:58 AM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	You won't be picking it up if they kick you off or ban you from the range for trying to do it. A brass catcher or guns that don't eject empties automatically are your best bets. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 23, 2018, 11:15 AM	#8
Rifletom Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2011 Location: So-Cal Posts: 786	That's true. But, It should be posted right up front. That way shooters will know. OP's wasn't posted, either was the one I was at. I no longer go there. Usually go the desert when it isn't too hot.

September 23, 2018, 11:29 AM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Agree they should make it clear. Otherwise, as the OP suggests, it seems arbitrary. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 23, 2018, 11:44 AM	#10
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,327	I would follow up with the dnr. When the dnr makes a rule, they post it, i’ll bet. When the local range officer makes a rule, he has no authority to make a sign, so it is word of mouth. I’ve seen local range officers make plenty of “rules”. The state does not generally fund ranges through brass pick up due to the extremely low return on investment, especially if he is picking up by hand. I’m guessing his boss said he could pick it up, if the people left it. Then you as a fellow opportunistic brass scrounger, like me, picked it up. Our local dnr range had a super unofficial no brass scrounging rule, but you can pick up your own and really as much as you want when shooting. The ro told me he made the rule to keep down the folks coming to scrounge and sell because they would come without paying the fee and practically catch it out of the air with completely disregard for if the shooter wanted it or not....they had some arguments and then came the rule.....you really do have to stop things at arguing or before when parties involved have loaded guns.

September 23, 2018, 11:46 AM	#11
marchboom Member Join Date: September 10, 2017 Location: No. Idaho Posts: 39	If I shoot at a range and MY cases hit the ground I will pick them up and take them back home to reload. They are MY property. I own them. Just hitting the ground does not relieve me of MY ownership rights. My shotgun hulls go in the trash. I would find another range if you're not allowed to retrieve your own property. __________________ U.S.A.F., aircrew (ret.) NRA Life Member NHRA RSO

September 23, 2018, 12:36 PM	#13
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	mikld, this is no club it is a state owned. The good thing about this one is, one doesn't pay to use it. The other I used to go to, is also state owned but you do have to pay. I think it's reasonable. Last time I went with a group of 4, it was close to $20 for the whole day. It wasn't much as children are less. Sure beats having to pay hourly at a indoor gun range. Unfortunately, those are the only two closest to me that are within an hour drive. If not mistaking the next is 2.5hrs away. So I have no choice but to suck it up deal with it.

September 23, 2018, 12:48 PM	#14
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Unless I do as some other people and try and dig to see if this is true or not. If the guy banned/kick me off the range, that probably would have been so due to that I would call him out on him actually going to different empty spots and picking up brass that doesn't belong to him either in front of other people. Probably would have felt the need to "use" his power. Lol. Had no idea that others prohibit, but then again haven't been to one that didn't allow this and have never gone to paid indoor ranges either. I just stay away from indoor ranges period.

September 23, 2018, 01:09 PM	#15
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Our range operation also has a group they have pick up the brass. I assume its a benfit to the range for the privilege. There is no issue with picking up your own brass. Picking up someone else has had some conflicts as some get carried away and don't ask. I will ask if its the caliber and brass mfg I use. Sometimes people offer it up. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

September 23, 2018, 02:54 PM	#16
Chaparral Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2018 Posts: 264	You can't have anything nice!

September 23, 2018, 03:05 PM	#17
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Local indoor pistol range, if the brass lands in front of the bench, your not allowed to pick up. Regardless of anyone there or not. One local outdoor range guy shows up and collects brass to turn in for scrap for his own purpose. Sign says not a member, no admittance. He's not a member. Real issue came when he started picking up my brass! __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

September 23, 2018, 03:41 PM	#18
Charlie98 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2006 Location: Great state of Texas Posts: 1,077	I feel fortunate... I shoot at an indoor range that doesn't really care. You tell them you want to try to recover your brass, they push it up to the wall and you can go fetch it when you are done. If your brass lands forward, as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else shooting, you can use the rake and pull it back. I don't get stupid with it... all I really ever want to recover is my .45ACP brass, I could care less about the rest. OP's story reminds me of where I used to shoot in Ohio, at one of the state ranges. One of the scroungers was just about catching my brass as it came out of the pistol, and picking up my .45 brass, too. I called him out on it, he said 'you are shooting 9mm!' so I unholstered my .45 and gave him a glance at the bore. He didn't pick up my brass anymore. As far as the OP's story, I would make a call. Granted, DNR officers are almost their own Gods, but that sounds like it should be a policy issue. Maybe they are just trying to discourage the scroungers, but for the state to actually say they want to recover scrap brass and try to sell it? That's more trouble than it's worth and I question it's validity. __________________ _______________ "I have this pistol pointed at your heart!" "That is my least vulnerable spot."

September 23, 2018, 04:18 PM	#19
FITASC Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2014 Posts: 6,441	I can pick mine up if I can find it in the grass. I NEED to just put my big blue tarp in the car and lay it out to make that easier. __________________ "I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa

September 23, 2018, 05:22 PM	#20
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	I would think if it's a legitimate DNR rule, there would be a way to verify. Most state DNRs have "chat lines" or "questions answered" contact methods on their websites. My state's chat line is manned with folks that know what they are talking about or they know where to get the answer. Never had to wait more than a few hours for an answer to any question I have asked. If it's a free range, properly maintained, I can't see snibbling over brass.....but I surely ain't gonna pay for a range and then give 'em my brass too. Fortunately, I have my own private range with my rules........

September 23, 2018, 06:14 PM	#21
Brutus Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2005 Posts: 1,023	This is one of the reasons that in my old age I'm gravitating back to revolvers. __________________ Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak out, Courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen, Winston Churchill.

September 23, 2018, 07:39 PM	#22
Tsquared Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2016 Location: NE Atlanta Posts: 337	GA DNR has a rule that you cannot solicit or ask another shooter for their brass. It is stated in their list of rules. You can police your own brass but not others. The RO's will take all unclaimed brass and drop it into a 5 gallon bucket that they keep in their store room. When they have two of them filled they have a vendor that buys the brass. That money goes into a petty cash fund.

September 24, 2018, 10:23 AM	#25
kmw1954 Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2016 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 1,524	This question came up not so long ago and when it did I took the time to call or email the 7 different indoor ranges in our area and 2 outdoor pay ranges and then looked at Wisconsin DNR rules. Not one range had a rule about recovering brass other than a couple would not allow you to enter in front of the firing line for safety reasons. The 2 outdoor ranges both stated you could pick up whatever you wanted so long as the range was cold. Wisconsin DNR site states shooters are responsible for policing the area when finished of all brass and garbage. I will say though that there is one private club near by that the ground all around the pistol range is covered in old used brass that is crushed and tarnished. I had a near impossible time trying to find my own, I finally gave up both shooting and looking.