223 not chambering - Page 6

ninosdemente · August 30, 2018, 11:50 PM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dnN...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12H9...w?usp=drivesdk

ninosdemente · August 30, 2018, 11:51 PM

On the far left is the pulled bullet, not resized. The other five are resized 1.742".

ninosdemente · August 30, 2018, 11:53 PM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yes...w?usp=drivesdk

This is showing the marks when chambered. The far left is from in sized brass and the rest are resized.

ninosdemente · August 30, 2018, 11:55 PM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12y9...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CAB...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-qK...w?usp=drivesdk

The first link is full cartridge, second is fired non resized and last is pulled bullet and resized.

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 01:52 AM

https://drive.google.com/file/d/165Z...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C3-...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1auK...w?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D-h...w?usp=drivesdk

So this is what I found. I have some nosler cc 69gr... Seated two of these and two of the VMAX. As you can see from the pictures they are near the same length. Any idea why the VMAX didn't chamber while the Nosler cc did?

On the far left the size of that I seated based of the VMAX seated VMAX set up and the Nosler came out to 2.2015".

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 01:53 AM

The VMAX I had to give that extra push again while the Nosler was no force at all. I chambered again factory ammo to make sure the Nosler chambered as the factory Remington's.

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 08:56 AM

I did the following:
-I sized 5 brass
-Trimmed
-Deburr
-they all chambered with no force (1.742")

Then...
-Set seating die as indicated, backed off die 2 full turns while stem was removed.
-Then inserted stem when bullet was put in and started to lower until I reached suggestion depth from members (2.250")
-Seated two different bullets Vmax 60gr and Nosler CC 69gr out of curiosity
-Three of them final OAL (2.2495)
-Nosler chambered as it should no force... BUT vmax did not. I had to give it that extra push. Did not chamber as it should

Could I come to conclusion that VMAX was the problem all along?

cw308 · August 31, 2018, 10:03 AM

I've used Hornady A Max the ogive is much different from the Sierra's , seat it lower until it chambers , then check the base to ogive settings , it will be the same as the other bullets your seating . If the bullet diameters are the same it's the shape of the bullet that's giving you the problem . What gauge are you using to check your ogive settings . Not looking for OAL setting only ogive setting.

Metal god · August 31, 2018, 10:45 AM

I'm restricted from seeing your photos

Quote:

Any idea why the VMAX didn't chamber while the Nosler cc did?

See post number 6 in this thread . It does not matter what your COAL is as much as when the bullet starts getting fatter from the tip . In post #6 Unclenick shows the longer pointed bullet is seated much longer then the short rounded bullet yet they both contact the rifling at there respective COAL . If you were to try and seat that shorter bullet to the same COAL as the long pointed bullet you will experience the same thing you are now . That is the bullet is engaging the lands before the cartridge is fully chambered . In your case the difference is likely very small by only .020 or .030+ or so .

Did you answer the question about if the rifle/throat is clean and free of fouling ?

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 11:47 AM

Yes, the rifle was clean before I started redoing the brass I pulled the bullets from.

Well... then I will try additional brass and try it again with seating a bit deeper. At least the vmax. Although a dummy round, if it was filled with powder... you can only go so far deep right? This is more of a curiosity question... but I guess will know part of the answer until I seat a vmax deeper.

cw308 · August 31, 2018, 02:22 PM

Are you able to measure from the base of the case to the bullets ogive , what gauge are you using ? The caliper is not going to do it .

**Unclenick** · August 31, 2018, 02:24 PM

Keep in mind what the Black Hills tech said, which was to try 2.240", which is slightly shorter than you have now. Based on your report about the other bullets seating without resistance, though, and also that the ring on these bullets goes all the way around them and that you have set the seater up without a crimp (I think: you did adjust the seater down without turning the die body, right?), this seems clearly to be an issue of the bullet ogive being shorter than the others and you having a short, tight throat. Seating deeper is all you can do in this instance and be sure to start the load workup over.

To repeat myself from an earlier post, an extreme example of two bullets with the same jump to the lands having very different COL's is below.

mehavey · August 31, 2018, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

-Nosler chambered as it should no force... BUT vmax did not. I had to give it that extra push. Did not chamber as it should

Could I come to conclusion that VMAX was the problem all along?

Yes.... See Post 22.

... and No. (Likely you also had crushed shoulder from CrimpWhileSeating syndrome)

In any case... You have apparently now got an operational solution
(No Crimp & No Hornady/VMAX) . . . and I'd press on.

.

cw308 · August 31, 2018, 04:30 PM

Unclenick
As always , great diagrams . I'm getting the feeling the OP can't measure to the ogive . My need help in finding the right gauge to work with . I asked .

Chris

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 05:45 PM

Sadly and embarrassing as it is, yes I don't know how. Any tips? Unless given here already and I missed it. Thanks.

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 05:48 PM

Other than the VMAX... What other bullets might be concerned about getting then? More like a trial and error, buy and find out the hard way? Lol.

At least now I know what will work for the meantime.

mehavey · August 31, 2018, 06:04 PM

The ONLY bullet I've ever found that gave me that problem was Hornady's shank/ogive design..
Speer, Sierra, Berger, Nosler... all fine (for me) in anything else I've loaded for.

cw308 · August 31, 2018, 09:37 PM

nino
No reason to be embarrassed , Hornady makes comparators that attaches to the caliper , I like the RCBS Precision Mic , very accurate an very easy to use . Only way to check your case sized measurement and bullet seating to the ogive .

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 10:46 PM

Uncle Nick, I seated to 2.2405" and it chamber (vmax).

Cw308, will look into one of those. Thanks for the help.

ninosdemente · August 31, 2018, 10:47 PM

Guess the vmax won't be obsolete aftaerall.

**Unclenick** · September 1, 2018, 11:05 AM

Congratulations!

Keep in mind you only moved it back about 4 thousandths, so the pressure will be higher than if you moved it back another 15 to 25 thousandths, which would produce a more normal pressure in your particular chamber. The usual Maximum-10% starting load should handle it just fine.

Since you are measuring something critical to location of the bullet with respect to the throat, I would buy the reliable old Sinclair hex tool. Unlike other comparators, its holes are cut with actual chamber throating reamers so they stop on your bullet exactly where they would meet a chamber throat. You have the advantage now that you know your actual bullet contact with the lands occurs to within 0.004" with that V-max bullet, so you could fine-tune the location of all your bullets with it from that information.

ninosdemente · September 1, 2018, 07:55 PM

Curious, when one uses a bullet remover, does one reuse the powder? Not looking to be cheap by any means. I'm not risking safety either... just don't know if people would reuse the powder.

condor bravo · September 1, 2018, 08:41 PM

Yes, by all means reuse the powder as well as the bullet, if not damaged, and some will reuse the primer if ejected during resizing.

I'm still curious about the cases that displayed the obvious shoulder bulges. I assume you pulled the bullets on those and resized the bulged cases. How did it go from there? Did the resized cases chamber OK? I think you indicated in a post that you did back off the seating die a couple turns which would prevent further shoulder buckling during bullet seating.

ninosdemente · September 1, 2018, 11:10 PM

I threw out the primers. Some bullets did get some damage, where there are markings, rings, scuffs. Just a few which I can live with if thrown away.

Yes, the cases from the pulled bullet were resized and trimmed. They chambered after seating to 2.2405" as Uncle Nick suggested i do to the vmax rounds. I seated some nosler cc at 2.250" and those chambered. The vmax did not chambered at 2.250".

The seating die when set up was turned back two full turns.

Want to thank everyone who helped with this problem and for your patience. Must have been frustrating as there is 6 pages...lol. I also know I wasn't much of help to some of the questions left unanswered. Still in the learning process and not trying to pretend to know much as I don't. Doesn't help when an op doesn't follow with answers. This I do apologize... As this has truly been a big learning experience.

condor bravo · September 2, 2018, 12:58 AM

Thanks for the feedback which is always appreciated. One thing you found out was that OAL is controlled by the bullet shape which may not necessarily conform to a loading manual figure.

August 31, 2018, 02:24 PM	#137
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Keep in mind what the Black Hills tech said, which was to try 2.240", which is slightly shorter than you have now. Based on your report about the other bullets seating without resistance, though, and also that the ring on these bullets goes all the way around them and that you have set the seater up without a crimp (I think: you did adjust the seater down without turning the die body, right?), this seems clearly to be an issue of the bullet ogive being shorter than the others and you having a short, tight throat. Seating deeper is all you can do in this instance and be sure to start the load workup over. To repeat myself from an earlier post, an extreme example of two bullets with the same jump to the lands having very different COL's is below. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 1, 2018, 11:05 AM	#146
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Congratulations! Keep in mind you only moved it back about 4 thousandths, so the pressure will be higher than if you moved it back another 15 to 25 thousandths, which would produce a more normal pressure in your particular chamber. The usual Maximum-10% starting load should handle it just fine. Since you are measuring something critical to location of the bullet with respect to the throat, I would buy the reliable old Sinclair hex tool. Unlike other comparators, its holes are cut with actual chamber throating reamers so they stop on your bullet exactly where they would meet a chamber throat. You have the advantage now that you know your actual bullet contact with the lands occurs to within 0.004" with that V-max bullet, so you could fine-tune the location of all your bullets with it from that information. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

September 1, 2018, 08:41 PM	#148
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Yes, by all means reuse the powder as well as the bullet, if not damaged, and some will reuse the primer if ejected during resizing. I'm still curious about the cases that displayed the obvious shoulder bulges. I assume you pulled the bullets on those and resized the bulged cases. How did it go from there? Did the resized cases chamber OK? I think you indicated in a post that you did back off the seating die a couple turns which would prevent further shoulder buckling during bullet seating. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with??

September 1, 2018, 11:10 PM	#149
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I threw out the primers. Some bullets did get some damage, where there are markings, rings, scuffs. Just a few which I can live with if thrown away. Yes, the cases from the pulled bullet were resized and trimmed. They chambered after seating to 2.2405" as Uncle Nick suggested i do to the vmax rounds. I seated some nosler cc at 2.250" and those chambered. The vmax did not chambered at 2.250". The seating die when set up was turned back two full turns. Want to thank everyone who helped with this problem and for your patience. Must have been frustrating as there is 6 pages...lol. I also know I wasn't much of help to some of the questions left unanswered. Still in the learning process and not trying to pretend to know much as I don't. Doesn't help when an op doesn't follow with answers. This I do apologize... As this has truly been a big learning experience. Last edited by ninosdemente; September 1, 2018 at 11:12 PM. Reason: Grammar error

September 2, 2018, 12:58 AM	#150
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	Thanks for the feedback which is always appreciated. One thing you found out was that OAL is controlled by the bullet shape which may not necessarily conform to a loading manual figure. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; September 2, 2018 at 01:09 AM.

August 30, 2018, 11:50 PM	#126
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dnN...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/12H9...w?usp=drivesdk

August 30, 2018, 11:51 PM	#127
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	On the far left is the pulled bullet, not resized. The other five are resized 1.742".

August 30, 2018, 11:53 PM	#128
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Yes...w?usp=drivesdk This is showing the marks when chambered. The far left is from in sized brass and the rest are resized.

August 30, 2018, 11:55 PM	#129
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	https://drive.google.com/file/d/12y9...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CAB...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-qK...w?usp=drivesdk The first link is full cartridge, second is fired non resized and last is pulled bullet and resized.

August 31, 2018, 01:52 AM	#130
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	https://drive.google.com/file/d/165Z...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C3-...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1auK...w?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D-h...w?usp=drivesdk So this is what I found. I have some nosler cc 69gr... Seated two of these and two of the VMAX. As you can see from the pictures they are near the same length. Any idea why the VMAX didn't chamber while the Nosler cc did? On the far left the size of that I seated based of the VMAX seated VMAX set up and the Nosler came out to 2.2015".

August 31, 2018, 01:53 AM	#131
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	The VMAX I had to give that extra push again while the Nosler was no force at all. I chambered again factory ammo to make sure the Nosler chambered as the factory Remington's.

August 31, 2018, 08:56 AM	#132
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	I did the following: -I sized 5 brass -Trimmed -Deburr -they all chambered with no force (1.742") Then... -Set seating die as indicated, backed off die 2 full turns while stem was removed. -Then inserted stem when bullet was put in and started to lower until I reached suggestion depth from members (2.250") -Seated two different bullets Vmax 60gr and Nosler CC 69gr out of curiosity -Three of them final OAL (2.2495) -Nosler chambered as it should no force... BUT vmax did not. I had to give it that extra push. Did not chamber as it should Could I come to conclusion that VMAX was the problem all along?

August 31, 2018, 10:03 AM	#133
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I've used Hornady A Max the ogive is much different from the Sierra's , seat it lower until it chambers , then check the base to ogive settings , it will be the same as the other bullets your seating . If the bullet diameters are the same it's the shape of the bullet that's giving you the problem . What gauge are you using to check your ogive settings . Not looking for OAL setting only ogive setting.

August 31, 2018, 11:47 AM	#135
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Yes, the rifle was clean before I started redoing the brass I pulled the bullets from. Well... then I will try additional brass and try it again with seating a bit deeper. At least the vmax. Although a dummy round, if it was filled with powder... you can only go so far deep right? This is more of a curiosity question... but I guess will know part of the answer until I seat a vmax deeper.

August 31, 2018, 02:22 PM	#136
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Are you able to measure from the base of the case to the bullets ogive , what gauge are you using ? The caliper is not going to do it .

August 31, 2018, 04:30 PM	#139
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	Unclenick As always , great diagrams . I'm getting the feeling the OP can't measure to the ogive . My need help in finding the right gauge to work with . I asked . Chris

August 31, 2018, 05:45 PM	#140
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Sadly and embarrassing as it is, yes I don't know how. Any tips? Unless given here already and I missed it. Thanks.

August 31, 2018, 05:48 PM	#141
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Other than the VMAX... What other bullets might be concerned about getting then? More like a trial and error, buy and find out the hard way? Lol. At least now I know what will work for the meantime.

August 31, 2018, 06:04 PM	#142
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	The ONLY bullet I've ever found that gave me that problem was Hornady's shank/ogive design.. Speer, Sierra, Berger, Nosler... all fine (for me) in anything else I've loaded for.

August 31, 2018, 09:37 PM	#143
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	nino No reason to be embarrassed , Hornady makes comparators that attaches to the caliper , I like the RCBS Precision Mic , very accurate an very easy to use . Only way to check your case sized measurement and bullet seating to the ogive .

August 31, 2018, 10:46 PM	#144
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Uncle Nick, I seated to 2.2405" and it chamber (vmax). Cw308, will look into one of those. Thanks for the help.

August 31, 2018, 10:47 PM	#145
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Guess the vmax won't be obsolete aftaerall.

September 1, 2018, 07:55 PM	#147
ninosdemente Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2017 Location: Northwest Indiana Posts: 831	Curious, when one uses a bullet remover, does one reuse the powder? Not looking to be cheap by any means. I'm not risking safety either... just don't know if people would reuse the powder.