Wooden Machine Gun Bullets?

[44 AMP]

It appears that Lapua has a different definition of "blanks" than the one I use.

As far as I'm concerned, if it has a bullet (made of anything) and it fires, its not a blank.

But that's just me...right??

[gwpercle]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

Any intentional combat use is pure BS. The wood bullets were essentially blanks for MGs, as they would allow recoil-operated MGs to function.

This post has the real facts . Wooden bullets would not operate automatic or semi-automatic weapons . Used for Traing and blanks not used in combat ... bolt action or manual feed only . a wound from a wooden bullet would be horrific and violate the Geneva Convention's Humanitarian Laws of International Warfare .
Band Of Brothers is fiction and the author is mistaken on the use of wooden bullets in warfare .
Gary

[44 AMP]

violate the Geneva Convention's Humanitarian Laws of International Warfare

wrong reference. The Geneva convention does not address bullets or wounding that is the earlier Hague Accords (and its later update)

And, FWIW, neither one applies to non signatory nations, and also only the armed forces of countries that actually signed the accords.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by 7.62 man

I know the Russians used them as blanks, I have some of them. They work good for launching grenades.

In the 1990s I has some german training rounds in 7.62x39. I think they were a painted steel case holding a polymer bullet, not brass like yours. They were definitely not blanks, and were reasonably accurate out to 50 yards. They operated an AK, but gave a very gentle shove as opposed to the harder thump of normal rounds.

[Gary L. Griffiths]

IIRC, the Germans issued wooden bullets in some circumstances to use when an enemy unit is surrounded but wouldn't surrender. The bullets were lethal at short ranges but wouldn't carry far enough beyond the enemy positions to endanger German units behind them.

[jonnyc]

"IIRC, the Germans issued wooden bullets in some circumstances to use when an enemy unit is surrounded but wouldn't surrender. The bullets were lethal at short ranges but wouldn't carry far enough beyond the enemy positions to endanger German units behind them."

This is total BS. Got a citation?

[44 AMP]

"IIRC, the Germans issued wooden bullets in some circumstances to use when an enemy unit is surrounded but wouldn't surrender. The bullets were lethal at short ranges but wouldn't carry far enough beyond the enemy positions to endanger German units behind them."

The study of WWII is one of my hobbies, I've got hundreds of books on all different aspects of it, and have read literally thousands of books, articles magazines, etc.

Never found any mention of what you're talking about here, in any of them.

Seems to me that if it every actually happened (which I doubt), it couldn't have been a common practice, or it would be mentioned somewhere, with reference to where, and when...

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by jonnyc

"IIRC, the Germans issued wooden bullets in some circumstances to use when an enemy unit is surrounded but wouldn't surrender. The bullets were lethal at short ranges but wouldn't carry far enough beyond the enemy positions to endanger German units behind them."

This is total BS. Got a citation?

Sounds like a war story from someone coming up with an explanation after finding some on a battle field.

Like stuff I heard in the mid-70's in the Army like "you can shoot SKS rounds in an M-14" (didn't trust those guys with accuracy for anything else either)

[44 AMP]

Seems to be stories from every war back to flintlock days about "they could use ours but we couldn't use theirs" or the reverse.

Might date from the days when British troops used a .72 cal musket and the French used a .69. Might date even earlier, perhaps back to longbowman,,,I have no idea.

the only place I've found (in the modern era) where it is sorta true is 81/82mm Mortars. The US, Britain, France, even Germany used an 81mm mortar (at various times) The Soviet version was 82mm bore, and could fire 81mm ammo. Or so I've heard....

[jonnyc]

It works.....trust me.

[105kw]

Point of fact: Band of Brothers was not fiction, Ambrose interviewed Easy company survivors and published his non fiction book in 1992.
It was adapted into a screen play, and filmed buy HBO as a mini- series.

[JohnKSa]

Correct. However, that doesn't mean that the people interviewed for the book knew the truth about wooden bullets.

Wooden bullets are blanks, used for training. Maybe they were pressed into service in extreme situations when ammo ran low, but more likely they were simply found in enemy ammo dumps after battles and speculation about their use turned into myths/urban legends.

[44 AMP]

Knowing I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but I feel the need to restate that "training ammunition" that has BULLETS (made of anything) are not what I consider blanks.

[JohnKSa]

I'd say that's a realistic expectation. There is perhaps a century of history of wooden bullet training ammo being called blanks--probably a bit late to start a campaign to change things at this point.

[Hawg]

I heard for years that the Japanese used bamboo bullets at Pearl Harbor. I think they even had a documentary on it in the late 70's but I can't find anything about it now.

[SIGSHR]

The version in my day was that an AK could fire a round of 5.56.
In all my reading about the Wehrmacht I have never seen a picture of their rifle grenade. Like ours, a Great Idea That Didn't Work. The soldier was supposed to fire it only with blank ammo, you know that somebody tried it with live ammo-more than once.
The Germans had months-years-to prepare for the Normandy Invasion, never read any accounts of units running out of ammunition.
The "Ost" battalions were "static defense" units, little if any transport, assigned to coastal positions. By 1943 the TO&E of German divisions on the Eastern Front was a division of about 10,000 with about 20% "Hiwis" filling as many non-combatant roles as possible.

[Mike Irwin]

"the only place I've found (in the modern era) where it is sorta true is 81/82mm Mortars. The US, Britain, France, even Germany used an 81mm mortar (at various times) The Soviet version was 82mm bore, and could fire 81mm ammo. Or so I've heard...."


I've discussed the reasons for that many times here and at other sites.

Many of the French, British, Soviet, Polish, and US mortars used during World War II had their origins with the Edgar Brandt company of France.

In the 1920s they started developing what became the gold standard for 60 and 81-mm mortars from the 1930s to the 1970s.

Most nations were working on developing their own home grown mortars at the time, with varying degrees of success. When the Brandt designs started making it into circulation, a lot of those efforts stopped.

As for why the Soviets chose an 82mm mortar round instead of 81mm?

Shell design, most likely. Soviet mortar shells tended to be squatter and shorter than Western mortar shells, which seems to have been continuing the trend from mortars used by the Russian Army in World War I.

So, a purely functional choice based on historic considerations and NOT a bunch of Soviet Political Commissars sitting around a Kremlin table cackling and saying "Nekulturny Amerikansy! We can use their shells, but they can't use ours!"

[Mike Irwin]

"In all my reading about the Wehrmacht I have never seen a picture of their rifle grenade. Like ours, a Great Idea That Didn't Work. The soldier was supposed to fire it only with blank ammo, you know that somebody tried it with live ammo-more than once."

Really? I've seen many pictures of German rifle grenades over the years, including one or two wartime pictures that show German soldiers with the grenade launcher attached to their rifle.

Ah, here's one from Wikipedia. Actually shows a grenade loaded in the launcher.



As shown in the following picture, the Germans actually had a pretty extensive array of rifle grenades and, it would seem, distributed them fairly liberally.




I believe it was the French who developed a rifle grenade that could be fired using a standard ball round -- no need for a special blank cartridge...

Ah, yes, the Viven-Bessières rifle grenade, developed during World War I.

[4V50 Gary]

I happen to have a German launcher device and there's a picture of museum display with one in my book that will be released next year. Picture has a sniper rifle on the top of the display case and the German K98k with grenade launcher happens to be on the bottom of the display case. Editor decided not to crop the image.

I thought it was the Belgians who developed a grenade that could be fired with a regular bullet. The center of the grenade was hollow along with boreline and an endcap would trap the gases with sufficient force to launch it. The bullet could pass through the cap without any Boom!

[105kw]

I thought it was the French VB grenade launcher that fired using a standard ball round.
The bullet went through the grenade as described, muzzle blast launched it out of the cup.
We adopted it during WW1.
I found this in Canfields book of WW1 US weapons.

[4V50 Gary]

OK, what I read was much later and involved the FN.

[Mike Irwin]

"I thought it was the French VB grenade launcher that fired using a standard ball round."

Yes. As I noted, it was the the Viven-Bessières rifle grenade, developed during World War I.

[4V50 Gary]

The other French weapons invention that may be found in most modern American kitchens is the socket bayonet mount. KitchenAid mixers uses that technology today.