.32 ACP rimlock and other pocket gun concerns

[cold dead hands]

Anyone ever experience .32 ACP rimlock in either a Kel-tec (p32 i think the baby pocket plastic wonder is known as) or Beretta Tomcat?

I am not so inclined toward the plastic wonder because I prefer as much metal as possible and I do not need to go smaller than the Beretta, so size and weight is not the issue up to the point that it still needs to very pocketable.

I had considered a Kahr PM9 (steel frame) but had heard horrible things regarding their quality and customer service considering the price for a new one.

NAA makes a baby .380 but I am unsure about them as well because the gun is small enough that recoil could be a problem, but maybe not because they are all steel. The potentially real problem lies in the fact tha Kahr makes the frames and other parts for NAA. If Kahr can't get it right for their own guns then how can I trust them with another company. I have read that there are accuacy issues with the .380 as well, though I have been informed that the customer service is second to none.

I usually carry a .357 snubbie but it is a bit of an anchor weighing in at 24 oz. unloaded. The Kahr has the right weight and demensions (plus 9mm beats .32) any day for me but again comes the questions of quality and service.

I know Kel-tec makes the P3at but I have read that they are brutal recoil wise and not meant to be shot much. I want to be able to shoot it at least 300 times a years for function checks and practice if I am going to carry it every day.

I had considered the Kel-tec .32 because it appears to be thicker ,metal wise, in spots that required shrinking for the .380 and seems to be more robust and easier to shoot recoil and return to target wise.. Add to this that it has a slide stop that had to be removed from the .380 and one more round which will help make up for the fact that the .32 is at the bottom of the self defense scale. 10 round mags are also available as well. Internet reviews poo-poo the little guns and say the break too easily, once again leading to my desire to shoot a daily carry gun frequently. It does me no no good if it lives at the factory because I shot it to death.

Finally is the Beretta Tomcat. I love that is all metal except for the grips and has that nifty tip up barrel. 10 round mags are available for it as well. It is a good deal bigger then the Kel-tec but not a monster by any means. The DA/SA trigger seems a better option than Kel-tec's trigger/hammer that won't reset unless the slide is pushed to the rear. But once again the internet blah blah has made me aware of what seems to be greater than accaptable mistakes in manufacuring and lousy customer service.

I was seriously considering either the Kel-tec or Beretta in .32 until I encountered the concept and apparently life threating reality (ask Mr. Murphy about bad things at the wrong time) of rimlock due to the fact that this is a semi-rimmed catridge. So now I am in a quandry.

Do I take a chance on the Beretta (or get two Kel-tecs for the price of the Beretta) or spend extra on The Kahr because the 9mm is a "rimless" and worry free feed wise but a bit more money than I wanted to spend (and do not ask what I think my life is worth. Dollars don't mean you're gonna win. Alertness and the willingness to pull the trigger make you victorious) or take my chances the NAA 9mm short (.380) because it is also ''rimless''.

I really would like to start leaving my .357 at home because it is a bit large (though I will miss the confidence that magnums give because they put bad guys down fast) and can be a real pain in the summer. I cannot stand IWB holsters and OWB holsters make paranoid. I'd hate to lose my permit because I accidentally showed while reaching for something at the store or something like that. If I was going to go the shoulder holster route I would carry my .45, so that is out especially in the summer.

I am sorry this was so long, but I wanted to be as thorough as possible when asking for the advice of others who own more guns than I do and possibly have carried longer than me. I have been CCW'ing for three years and want more options than my J frame clone by Taurus that has been a fantastic and trustworthy gun from day one.

So size, potential problems (manufaturers or field use) and absolute reliability are my big issues, all else is just detail.

Thanks for your time.

[rdks]

I own a Tomcat and it is without a doubt, the worst pistol I ever owned. Trigger pull is horendous and jams are way too common. I was hoping to use it as a BUG but I now have zero confidence in it.
I can't speak for your other options.

[OldShooter]

I'm with RDKS on the Tomcat. Maybe we'er the unlucky two who had bad luck because other people love them. Mine was fine for a few trips to the range, after about 200 rounds it started to jam very regularly, the slide came off track in recoil. What a POS! The trigger pull was pretty heavy and in double action the girlfriend couldn't pull it at all in DA. Took it back and gave her the Bersa .380 instead. The Tomcat was little and "cute" but I really thought the tip up barrel was kind of cheesy although the concept was interesting. Good luck.

[Superhouse 15]

I carry a P32 as a BUG, my girlfriend carries a Tomcat in a little belt pack, purse thing. I had a rimlock once, but it was when I put a +1 extension on an aftermarket magazine. That was asking for it, really. The only problem ever with the Tomcat was a night sight that died right after we bought it. Beretta replaced it quick and free. I have "flyer wires" in all our CCW magazines now and have never had a problem with either pistol. Her's actually gets fired a lot, but I am in the process of building a training pistol out of a 21 in .22lr. No wear and tear issues yet.

[AK103K]

I had a P32 and rim lock was an issue a couple of times, but it had other issues that were worse.

Have you considered the Seecamp LS-32? They are what all the others wish they were.

They are also all metal.

[PSP]

From what you've written, the Seecamp is just what you're seeking. American made, solid stainless steel, great reliability and NO rimlock due to the magazine design. One of the finer guns I've owned. Here's the web link.
http://seecamp.com/

[IMG][/IMG]

[Perldog007]

Tangfolio used to make the Titan II in .32. Great if you can find one (or two so you have a parts gun).

I like the beretta 21a for light and tight. Sure it's only a .22, but the design means the muzzle can be in contact with a reasonable chance of the slide not being pushed out of battery. Mine was always good to me, but usually carried as a BUG or for those times "you don't need a gun".

+1 on the Seecamp, never owned one, only got to shoot one once - but it made quite an impression on me.

[Bill DeShivs]

I have used .25 ACP, .32 ACP, and .38 Super extensively. All are semi-rimmed cartridges. The .22 rimfire is a full rimmed cartridge. I have never experienced rimlock in any of them, but I know how to load a magazine.
My Tomcat has had no issues and the trigger pull is fine. Later guns may be different. The .32 is pushing the envelope for the 950 series design.
I, and my wife carry Keltec P32s as primary guns.

[velocette]

My Seecamp LWS .32 is totally reliable, very easily concealed & holds 7 rds. It is a marvel of American engineering and quality.
The LWS .380 is holds but 6 rounds but is in every other way identical to the .32. Both superb concealment pistols of high quality.

Roger

[cold dead hands]

For those of you that use the Kel-tec P32, have you shot them frequently enough to say that you could consider them to be strong little guns or is a 1000 rounds probably the most those guns could handle before falling apart?

How about the recoil for those Kel-tecs? It seems that if women carry them than they should be kosher, but I have zero desire to hurry the arthritis that comes from harsh recoil (side note: just how weird do you have to be to be a recoil junkie?). I am not overly recoil sensitive but I have zero love for pain. Just imagine shooting your little gun lots of time and then failing to use it well or at all the next day when life throws you in to the path of a bad guy. Not good.

For the guys that had problems with the Berettas, were they the alloy and carbon steel (all black) or shiny stainless steel? I have read that the SS guns seem to be much tougher and offer fewer problems.

Any Kahr MK 9 or MK 40 users out there with opinions good or bad of their guns?

Same for NAA users? Good or bad?

I would love to have a Seecamp, but they are out of my price range and the waiting list is frustrating to people like me who want to go buy it and take it home that day.

[RJay]

I have been shooting both rimmed and rimless cartridge handguns all my life and have never experience rim lock. I didn't even know such a thing existed until a few years ago. Such a thing may happen but then but if so , it must be fairly rare. I can not find any one in my circle of acquaintances that have ever had it happen, not even with a .22 Auto. I've been working with a Kel-Tec 32 magazine trying to force one cartridge rim over the proceeding rim, can't do it with our damageing the magazines. I'm not saying it can't be done, perhaps in a very loose magazine, I just can't do with a Kel-Tec.

[Superhouse 15]

I bought the second Kel Tec that came into the gunshop where I worked. I think it was around 2000? maybe late 1999? I broke a slide lock spring once. I had a wierd aftermarket magazine that I don't trust for CCW. You can't put flyer wires in the +1 mags either. A perk of my job is free ammo, I have shot it "over 1000 rounds". We also have a range rental at the shop. It has no issues, and it's an old off-white frame 1st gen. KT has excellent customer service and treat you like you're smart. They'll send you parts and let you fix it yourself if you ask. When I've ordered parts, mostly broken slide lock or mainsprings, they send what you need and extras, too. If you want extra parts so you can experiment, they sell it to you cheap, and as many as you like. My girl's tomcat is black with an express front night sight. she traded in another plain black one for it for the night sight. If I could find a stainless one with the same sights I'd trade for that one for the rust resistance. She shoots it every time she goes to the range, maybe once a month. It shoots good and doesn't have any unusual wear inside yet.

Ther is an Atagua .32 that's been sitting in the case for a while, with 3 magazines.... hmmmm.

[JohnKSa]

No rimlock here. I messed around briefly TRYING to induce it and couldn't.

[dogtown tom]

cold dead hands: ...I had considered a Kahr PM9 (steel frame) but had heard horrible things regarding their quality and customer service considering the price for a new one.

PM9 is plastic frame, not steel. The K9 & MK9 are steel.
I believe the great majority of Kahr horror stories are rooted in the PM series. I have a K9 and have yet to have a malfunction, using everything from Gold Dots, Hydra Shok, WWB, Blazer and some funky Norinco Chinese stuff. It is reliable enough that I'm considering getting an MK9 as well.

NAA makes a baby .380 but I am unsure about them as well because the gun is small enough that recoil could be a problem, but maybe not because they are all steel. The potentially real problem lies in the fact tha Kahr makes the frames and other parts for NAA. If Kahr can't get it right for their own guns then how can I trust them with another company. I have read that there are accuacy issues with the .380 as well, though I have been informed that the customer service is second to none...

The same week I bought my Kahr K9 I picked up a NAA Guardian .380. It has been 100% as well with Hydra Shoks, Blazer, WWB, Dynamit Noble JHP and 1983 vintage Santa Barbara flat points.

Yes, the .380 Guardian is a handful recoil wise. It is MUCH more manageable than the .380 KelTec due to it's heavier steel frame. Kahr was the original parts supplier for NAA frames and barrels, but assembly and fitting are done by NAA.

I have the gutter snipe with tritium night sights installed on the Guardian. Understand that this is not a range gun, most guns this size were meant for pocket carry not for shooting soda cans at 25 yds. Just this week NAA anounced that Crimson Trace laser grips will be available for the Guardian.

Keep this in mind- 9mm is FAR cheaper to shoot than .380, which is cheaper than .32acp. If I could pick one gun for CCW it would be the K9.

[Tomac]

I've carried a number of Tomcats over the years for deep CCW, ever since they first came out. My current is the Inox version (best of the breed, IMHO) and to date I've yet to experience a malfunction of any kind in all the years I've carried & shot them (Silvertips & FMJ only). I prefer the manual safety & DA/SA trigger to the DAO designs and when fired SA mine have been far more accurate than one would expect from a mouse gun.
Tomac

[PSP]

velocette said,

My Seecamp LWS .32 is totally reliable, very easily concealed & holds 7 rds. It is a marvel of American engineering and quality.
The LWS .380 is holds but 6 rounds but is in every other way identical to the .32. Both superb concealment pistols of high quality.

FWIW...Both Seecamps, .32 and .380 hold 6+1 cartridges. A true feat of space utilization.

link to size chart,
http://seecamp.com/SizeWeight.pdf

[DMK]

I've never experienced rimlock, and I've shot my 32ACP guns a bunch (Keltec P32, CZ-70, Walther PP). But then, I only shoot FMJ. After research and my own testing of HPs with wet newspaper and water jugs, I don't trust .32 HPs to penetrate deep enough.

I love my little 1st Generation P32 though. I practice with it at 15 yards and find it to be surprisingly accurate. It's not difficult to shoot at all. It's always been reliable (it was my Dad's a few years before it was mine). I'm not sure of the round count he put though it, but I've shot maybe 500 rounds myself. I guess around 800-900 total and it shows no appreciable wear at all.

Another favorite of mine is my S&W 642. It's very light and the .38 Special round is a bit more comforting than the little 32ACP. Plus you can't get much more reliable than a S&W J-frame. Pricey little bugger though. I gues that's a testament to their popularity.

[Phil_A]

For those of you that use the Kel-tec P32, have you shot them frequently enough to say that you could consider them to be strong little guns or is a 1000 rounds probably the most those guns could handle before falling apart?

How about the recoil for those Kel-tecs?

Same for NAA users? Good or bad?

Here is my opinion of the P32 versus the NAA 32.

NAA 32: well built, nicely finished, heavier, more rugged, heavier trigger, sharper recoil due to the blowback design. It would probably hold up to more rounds than the P32 but I did not find it very fun to shoot.

P32: weighs less so easier to carry, lighter trigger, less perceived recoil (locked breech design). Surprisingly more accurate than I would have expected. I don't shoot it very often but it is not a range gun.

I ended up carrying the P32 much more often than the NAA. It is possible to induce rimlock by using shorter .32 HP cartridges in a magazine designed for ball by loading the magazine incorrectly. I don't find any reliable benefits with hollowpoints out of a very small pistol so I stick with ball ammo. - Phil

[HisSoldier]

An interesting thing about the Kel-Tec .380's is that the barrel just behind the bulge near the muzzle is only about .015" thick! When I first saw that I thought "How can this take the pressure!" Well, that .015" of 4140 steel is much stronger than the .025" of unsupported brass at the breech is all I can figure, and I've never heard of them bulging or blowing a barrel. If I remember right the manual even says you can shoot +P. I know, there's no such thing, OK, but that's what the manual says I think.

As for the Guardian, my Kahr framed Guardian is a fine gun through and through.

On recoil, funny thing there, I got to shooting my .380's a lot, and picked up my Colt stainless commander .45 ACP. Suddenly the recoil of the Colt seemed way excessive! Ha! I'd trained myself somehow to be sensitive to recoil from the .380's. I refuse to allow that. I love the big .45's. My friend has a .454 Cassull, now that slaps your hand.

[alamo]

Ther is an Atagua .32 that's been sitting in the case for a while, with 3 magazines.... hmmmm.

I've got 2 of them. Fine little pistols. Never a problem with mine. Too bad they aren't made anymore. About 3,200 were made.

[cold dead hands]

dogtown tom,

I actually meant to call the PM9 an MK9 but had a brain malfunction.

As for the other poster who said there ain't no such animal as .380+p, have you checked out what Corbon and Magtech offer?

[HisSoldier]

Well, I mentioned +P .380 and got called to the carpet several times, something about SAMMI standards or something. I just don't want to argue about it. The MagTech ammo I buy are hotter than standard loadings. It's a matter of semantics I think. I'm just careful saying +P .380 anymore . The .380 needs all the help it can get.

[michael t]

I have 2 P-32 both over 500 rounds with out trouble. Because I use HP in them I installed the rim lock kit from KT. Just a little extra insurance. I have a 380 KT also way over 500 rounds Yes its a little snappier but not that bad. Wife carries 32 I switch between 32 and 380 . If you are real worried about rimlock shoot ball no chance of rimlock. Or load chamber and top round in mag with HP and rest mag Ball again no chance of rimlock.
I find the NAA to heavy and terrible trigger. Kahr no longer makes parts or frames for NAA. Last I read none were being made at present Till they can find a new supplier and test for relieabilty.

Mag tec +P a joke Corbon 90gr JHP will blow it a way . Best 380 round now the Corbon DPX It was made with the P3AT in mind and lots of testing done useing the Kel Tec.
A little bigger than any of above is the Bersa CC 380 and 8+1 Will pocket carry DA/SA and owners love their Bersa's
http://bersatalk.com

[Wrascal]

I didn't think it was possible, but I recently witnessed my daughter having a rimlock incident (P32) while using ball ammo. Perhaps she was just sloppy with the magazine loading/handling?

Also, I've not had any problems with my PM9 (although its only two months old /400 rounds). It's become my new favorite toy/ carried.

[HisSoldier]

"Mag tec +P a joke Corbon 90gr JHP will blow it a way"

It may be that Corbon is better, but from what I've seen in my own tests it would not be much of a joke to be shot with the MagTech +P .380. It's not gelatin but I shot two gallon jugs filled with water. The ball ammo moved the jug back about 6", other than the entry and exit holes the jug was intact. When I shot the other jug with the MagTech it jumped back 5 or 6 feet and the front of the jug was opened up clear around the front, just ripped open! Also, the back of the jug had an exit hole, so the slug penetrated as well. These cost about a buck apiece, a small price for peace of mind that the toy gun will not be a toy to the bad guy. I'm not an ammo salesman, so have no bias in the matter. I've read recently about the Ranger T ammo that is the later rendition of the Black Talon, I bid on some for my .45. Really nasty looking buzz saw after it opens up. Said to be sold only to police. What part of the second amendment says police or military should be armed better than law abiding citizens?