The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 19, 2011, 01:53 PM   #51
double bogey
Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 81
Mleake, we are talking about 2 different scenarios. In my neighborhood the houses are 30' from the sidewalk. No fences in the front. Dog running at you doesn't have far to go. Dogs are not allowed to chase people off the sidewalk. If the dog is behind a fence, I don't care what he does. If he is loose thats completely different. And it's kind of a touchy subject for me as my neighborhood has gone downhill in recent history. I own land in the country, but have been unable to get it built on, so I envy your situation.

I'm not sure how it would work with a dog, but if a self defense shooting isn't prosecuted, in my state (ruled a good shoot), I am protected from lawsuits. And I am not required to retreat, and allowed to protect myself and others.
__________________
Nos operor non pensio volutabrum
(We don't rent pigs)
double bogey is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:29 PM   #52
psyfly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 932
The thread is titled "Dog Threat?" not "When can I shoot a dog?". Threat is in the eye of the receiver. If your dog is taking a run at me, it's up to me to evaluate the level of threat: I don't know your dog. I have enough experience to be somewhat confident I can tell the difference between a bluff and an attack. My 9 y/o granddaughter; not so much. She will run. I will not attempt to shoot a dog, large or small, that doesn't present a threat. However, the larger the dog, the more severe are the consequences of misjudging a dog's intention.

I love dogs. I have lived with many over the years. I don't have one now because my circumstances don't allow me to properly care for it. But I have also put two of them down because they became unpredictable. I think it is difficult for some people to believe that their well-loved pet can be dangerous.

But they can.
__________________
Show me the data
psyfly is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:42 PM   #53
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
psyfly, yes they can.

But some people can also be inordinately stupid.

Example: I used to frequent an off-leash park in Florida. The vast majority of people there were familiar with, and comfortable with, dogs of all sizes. Every so often you'd get somebody there who didn't like the fact that it was an off-leash park, would complain bitterly, and demand that people keep their dogs away from them.

Now, within 5 miles of that park there are at least 8 parks that are not off-leash. So why would people who were not dog-friendly go there in the first place?

In another case, a father brought a toddler daughter there, to get her more accustomed to dogs. Great in theory; in practice, when the girl initiated a game of chase with one dog, and then panicked and started shrieking, the father kicked the dog like a football.

Why did he let his toddler approach an unknown dog? Why didn't the father pick up the kid and let the dog owner deal with the dog? Note: the dog was definitely in play mode, not attack mode, and the kid had initiated.

In yet another case, an older man (new retiree, apparently) was playing fetch with his retriever, and got violent when other dogs started trying to go after the ball, then play rough with the retriever. One of the dogs was a pit bull, but it had been playing just fine with the other dogs in the group. At no point was the retriever under attack. But the old man started swinging his tennis ball launcher at the other dogs, and actually hit the pit bull with it.

At which point, as a friend of the pit's owner, I advised the man that if he wanted to go to an off-leash park, he should expect interactions. If he wanted solo time, he should take his own dog to a more secluded area. And if he hit my friend's dog again, I'd take his toy and hit him with it. (He was lucky my friend, a woman in her early 30's, didn't just beat him then and there... she came very close.)

Every so often, a dog would create an actual problem. Most of the time, the owners were on it before much could happen, but there were some irresponsible owners. The rest of us would encourage them to either take some obedience classes, or not continue coming to the park.

As far as my dogs go, I have grown so accustomed to people letting their small kids approach strange dogs - in fact, to letting them pull tails or try to ride the bigger dogs - that every dog I own gets subjected to lots of ear, nose, and tail pulling by me. I stick my hands in their mouths, and drag them around by their lower jaws. I poke them between the eyes. I play tug-o-war with their tails. I take food out of their mouths (except for the Jack Russell; she hasn't ever learned not to bite down in that scenario).

Point is, my dogs are conditioned to look at all that as play, so when some idiot parent lets their toddler approach my dogs without permission, no harm should come to the kids. They might get knocked down, or possibly toenail raked, when the dogs play with them, but they won't get bitten.

Again, I see far more people who threaten or harm dogs, than I see dogs who try to harm people (at least, without pretty serious provocation).
MLeake is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:45 PM   #54
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
When talking about a animal attack, each attack is unique. I am not going to say that I would never shoot a dog who I felt was attacking me. I will say that a firearm would be my last choice to defend against (1) animal. With me it would really depend on what I have on me, where I am and the specific animal.

I live in the rural South and there are lots of farm dogs. Some are noise makers and some are dangerous to a person afoot. Animal services are very helpful in dealing with vicious animals or animals that wander. I do not always carry a firearm but 99.9 percent of the time, I will have a quality OC spray or a nice stick.

In over 40 years I have been bitten once by a very unlikely attack dog (collie). I do agree that I should not have to deal with dangerous animals at large, but I could have avoided this attack if I had taken the dogs warning actions seriously. Since that time, I have carried whatever type of defensive irritant that the times/technology offers.

like I said, each attack is unique. I do not fault anyone who uses a firearm lawfully to defend themselves. Whatever your plan, take care and good luck.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

Last edited by FireForged; April 19, 2011 at 02:58 PM.
FireForged is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:51 PM   #55
psyfly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 932
MLeake:

Without a doubt, owners are more trouble (usually) than the dogs.

But, again, people forget that dogs (especially dogs that are considered part of the family) can be dangerous.

I have been personal witness to two events, and can find many more on the interweb, in which trusted-for-years pet has attacked family members.

Dogs don't process information in the same manner people do. That's easy to forget. Too many people treat their dogs (and expect them to act like) "little people". They're not.

Best,

Will
__________________
Show me the data
psyfly is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 02:57 PM   #56
Mayor Al
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Location: Southern Indiana, Near Louisville.
Posts: 211
My two Scotties are more apt to beat a visitor/treaspasser to death by wagging their tails so hard and licking their "new Friend", than any bites that might occur !

[img]Butterflies July 2 2008 025.jpg[/img]





They bark and sound fierce, until the visitor/stranger gets fairly close, then they shift into the greeting mode ! After about 5 minutes of greeting sniffs and petting and mumbling 'hello's", they sit or lay down to watch the humans interact.

Now, If it is not a human... all bets are off. Deer or turkeys in the yard get them moving on those short legs..and Possum, Raccoons and other critters are attack victims if they stay long enough to get caught.

We yell and throw things at unwelcome visitor dogs, to prevent ours from joining the neighborhood wanderers. If a strange dog appears, we do isolate our dogs and watch the intruder for any signs of bad behavior. I would not hesitate to shoot a militant dog that invades our property. it hasn't happened here in Indiana but did in SoCal and a swinging rake didn't detter the invader at all..so the snubby is kept loaded and available if we ever get another of that type of visitor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Butterflies July 2 2008 025.jpg (95.4 KB, 18 views)

Last edited by Mayor Al; April 19, 2011 at 03:07 PM.
Mayor Al is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 03:10 PM   #57
Roland Thunder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Gwinnett County Georgia
Posts: 1,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike38
MLeake, okay, but replace the dog in my above scenario with a human. Say the human was on his own property, I’m legally walking down the sidewalk in front of his house. He starts running at me with a knife, screaming and yelling at me as he approaches. Running directly at me, making eye contact with me.

If I was carrying, he would be a dead man.


I don't see the parallel. If a person was approaching with a knife, you could warn them your armed and prepared to defend yourself and that might stop them. You couldn't do that with a dog.
__________________
Do not follow where the path may lead, go, instead where there is no path and leave a trail - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Roland Thunder is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 03:18 PM   #58
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
I realize dog bites can be very bad news. One of the worst bite injuries I've seen didn't even actually result from a bite. An Italian greyhound ran full-tilt, while looking the other way, into an English bulldog. The greyhound just about gutted itself on one of the bulldog's protruding lower fangs. Ripped probably an 8" tear in it's side, from ribs to hip.

Luckily, the greyhound's owners saw the collision. The bulldog never bit, and in fact almost got knocked out by the impact.

(I say luckily, because they weren't at all angry with the bulldog or its owner, and all focus was on getting to the vet immediately.)

Most of the people I've seen get bitten fell into one of two categories:

1) Owners, who lost control of their own dogs, and then ineffectually tried to grab them; and
2) People who really had it coming.

I know there are many legitimate victims every year; I just haven't personally seen one (human, anyway; my friend's Schnauzer got mauled and nearly killed in a very short attack by a Chow). Then again, I've never witnessed a murder, but I know they happen.

I won't argue that dogs can't do serious damage. I will argue that a gun should not be the first line of defense against a dog, in the vast majority of cases. This is partly due to the possibility of bluff charges and misunderstandings; partly due to the fact that many people might actually wait too long if their only recourse is lethal force; and partly due to the fact that those bullets which don't hit their target, along with those which hit but overpenetrate, are going somewhere.

So, if I were really worried about a dog threat, I'd add some tools to the kit. Spray, whistles, a walking stick, even a stun gun leap to mind. And, of course, the gun.

But like I said earlier, when all you have is a gun, all problems start to look like targets.
MLeake is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 03:44 PM   #59
Roland Thunder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2010
Location: Gwinnett County Georgia
Posts: 1,136
I almost had an encounter a few years ago with a couple of neighbors Rotweilers that had gotten loose. I think the owners let them out on purpose thinking there wouldn't be anyone out late at night. I was out for a jog one night about 10pm when these 2 Rotweilers started running toward me. I didn't own a gun at the time. I decided to increase my foot speed and then I realized I wasn't going to outrun them and would probably get mauled. So, I stopped dead in my tracks and just stood there without moving an inch. The 2 dogs stopped too and we had a stare down for about 10 minutes. Finally, the dog's short attention span got the better of them and they took off. The frustrating part was, I was trying to wave down passing cars so I could get someone to help me by going to the dog owners house (I knew where the dogs lived) and everybody just waved back at me as the drove past.
__________________
Do not follow where the path may lead, go, instead where there is no path and leave a trail - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Roland Thunder is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 03:56 PM   #60
psyfly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 932
MLeake:

Quote:
But like I said earlier, when all you have is a gun, all problems start to look like targets.
Please consider the possibility that many of us gun owners and users find a comment like that condescending and at least a little insulting.

Best,

Will
__________________
Show me the data
psyfly is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 03:58 PM   #61
psyfly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 932
Greg has a good point.

Many dogs that approach threatingly, bluff or serious attack, will respond to a loud and commanding voice (particularly poorly trained dogs).

Certainly, as a grown-up human being, I have other recourse before turning to firing on the dog (if I judge I have the time).

Best,

Will
__________________
Show me the data
psyfly is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 04:07 PM   #62
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
psyfly....

How many gun owners in this thread, who have advocated shooting the dog, have offered any other alternatives to doing so? By my rough count, less than half. (I suspect a lot less than half, honestly, and think that's the trend in most dog threads.)

So, while you might find my comment condescending or insulting, can you not see why I might see things that way?

I'm about as pro-gun as you will find. I choose what states I'll live in based, in large part, on their firearms laws. Most of my friends are shooters, and CCW types.

But most of my friends don't look at the gun as their first response to possible threats. If you look at the dog threads that open on TFL, you'll see that very regularly, you get a high percentage of folk who advocate shooting the charging dog. You'll get a few who will suggest spray.

Once, there was a guy who said he was considering tasering an aggressive dog, through its chain-link fence, because he thought some day the dog might try to come over the fence at him. So, while he wasn't advocating shooting, quite, he wasn't helping things.

If you take issue with my stance, psyfly, explain what part you find condescending or insulting.

And if it turns out that you have more tools in your kit than just a gun, then you probably aren't one of the folks I was referring to. (And yes, using command presence on a dog qualifies as another tool. But aside from you, and GreginATL - who actually used non-threat, neutral body language - who has advocated that?)
MLeake is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 04:13 PM   #63
Duckkkkk
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2011
Posts: 134
The State of Michigan's opinion....

http://www.mcrgo.org/mcrgo/d_ccwfaq.asp


Under Michigan law, any use of a firearm is an application of deadly force. Deadly force is legally permissible when it is proportional to the threat. Meaning, that deadly force may be used to prevent death, great bodily harm that could lead to death, or rape. It is entirely possible that an animal could do great bodily harm that could lead to death. So, it is possible that the use of a pistol against an attacking dog would be a justifiable use of force. Keep in mind that the circumstances would have to be such that you are in a place where you have a legal right to be, and that there is sufficient indication that your life is in danger when you fire. If you were to fire when the dog is too far away, or running away, or if you hit something other than the dog, or the dog is a toy poodle, you might face serious legal consequences. The key is that any use of force must be reasonable under the circumstances. I admire your restraint and think that the policy of not using our pistols unless we absolutely have to is the wise course of action.

While the answer contains statements of law and practical advice that are essentially correct, it is worth noting that dogs are covered by different laws than human beings. Under Michigan law, a dog is an item of personal property.

There is a statute in Michigan which states that "Any person...may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing, worrying, or wounding any livestock or poultry or attacking persons, and there shall be no liability on such person in damages or otherwise, for such killing."

However, there is another statute which states that "willfully and maliciously killing or injuring animals" is a felony punishable by up to 4 years in prison.

The practical advice given last week remains unchanged. Only use your pistol if you have to. If you or someone else is in danger of attack by an animal, use your pistol or other firearm to defend yourself and your loved ones.
Duckkkkk is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 04:30 PM   #64
psyfly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 932
MLeake:

First, I do credit you with good intentions, so don't read personal condemnation in my own inference that what you were writing meant that gun carriers, in general, see everything as a target.

I've been carrying a gun since I was about 13 (don't ask) and I have never shot anyone with my ccw (nor anyone's dog). I live in the country mostly and I have shot my share of dogs that I deemed to be dangerous and some that I knew to be dangeous, and always with a long gun and never for sport.

My ccw is my last line of defense, not my first.

My main point is that many dog owners are overly defensive when their dogs exhibit poor training and aggressive behavior and, sometimes, seem to imply that their dog's life and health are more important than mine.

Best,

Will
__________________
Show me the data
psyfly is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 04:30 PM   #65
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
Threads like these make me aware of how much nicer it is living out of the city. We got no sidewalk, we got open fields, we got barns and out buildings where a dog can hide. We also got a law says control your animal or pay a price.

If a person is walking down the sidewalk and the dog attacks but the invisible fence stops him a person can call 911 and register a complaint about the aggressive dog and that owner will get a ticket and court date, in Omaha this will happen. A dog shouldnt attack a person just for walking down the sidewalk, a good owner will train his pet.

I got 6 dogs, come to my place and you will get licked to death, until I give the command, then you best be someplace else. A dog goes off all the time is like a gun goes off all the time.... worthless in a SD event.
markj is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 04:34 PM   #66
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,971
Quote:
Well maybe one lesson is that invisible fencing isn't a great idea if you own a large, agressive dog. I'm not comfortable with it because it won't prevent another dog from entering your property and if you loose power the fence is useless.
Takes mine about 5 or 6 days till they figure it out that the electicity is off, they are dogs, not so smart as we are.

Another dog comes into the place, he leaves real quick or my dogs take him to ground.
markj is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 04:35 PM   #67
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Dogs bark, and approach to warn off and identify potential intruders or strangers.

That's not an "attack".

Where I grew up, it was normal; of course, back then a lot of people had their dogs on runs or leads out in the yard. Quite a few would run full tilt to the end of their lead, and get jerked back.

Oddly enough, I don't recall any citations, or public outcries; I also don't recall any actual attacks on my street.

Of course, we also didn't wear helmets on our bikes, or have people advocate putting 8 year old's in child car seats; we rode in the backs of pick-up trucks; we tried to make home-made firecrackers.... and just about every kid had a pocket-knife at school.
MLeake is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 05:09 PM   #68
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Let's look at some facts. There are about 30 fatal dog attacks each year in the US and the number one breed is pit bulls, Rotweillers are second with German Shepherds right up there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._United_States

If I am confronted out doors with a threatening pit bull, or other large dog, I am going to assume the worst, especially if I am with family. These are very aggressive animals that fear no one and do not back down to usual threats you can use against other dogs. You don't have to wait to get stabbed to be in fear of your life and in imminent danger of grave bodily harm or death to shoot in self defense. Likewise, are you really going to wait until you have one of these viscious dogs chomping on you. It could get out of hand quickly with them knocking you down and going for the throat.

In addition, not only do you have to worry about bite itself, it is the infection that always follows that could be the deadly part of the encounter. I am a physician and I took care of a man who was bit and scratched by his cat that had been shot in the eye with a BB by his neighbor. His arm was swollen to twice the size with scratch marks along his entire forearm. He had two bite marks on his thigh which was likewise markedly swollen. Bottom line, he would have been at high risk of death without the IV antibiotics that I gave him.

Please consider this when considering dog attacks. It is not just the bite that causes problems, it is what follows as well. That in my opinion qualifies as danger of death or grave bodily injury even from small dogs especially if people have underlying medical conditions.

The biggest issue is if the attack occurs within city limits where fire arm firing is prohibited. We had a dog attack in our neighborhood a couple of months ago where a large boxer attacked a woman walking. Actually there were three loose dogs in this attack including a Rotty mix. Fortunately, they picked on the wrong lady, she was walking her two pit bulls. A couple of weeks later, another couple walking their dog had to jump into a neighbors SUV to escape the same pack of three dogs loose once again. We had little help from the city and it is Kommifornia so the issue of even having self defense available makes it a sad situation.

The community service officer that is part of our neighborhood watch simply said call 911. Essentially all viable self defense methods against a dog attack ARE illegal here in LA county. I will be happy to be back in Idaho soon and escape to a land that recognizes self defense, especially against large dogs.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 05:41 PM   #69
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Alaska444... even in California, a cane or walking stick is probably not going to draw undue attention.

Pepper spray might or might not be an option.

For dogs, specifically, there are high frequency whistles that I'm pretty sure won't be banned anywhere in the US.

At the risk of sounding condescending... it seems like you are only looking at one means of defense, which has its downsides (both legal and practical). More options is generally a good thing.

Also, looking at your facts: 30 fatal attacks per year is bad. But it's also no higher than shark attack numbers. Do you take powerheads to the beach? The odds of a fatal dog attack are lower than lightning or tornado fatalities. (Very different from armed robbery, rape, aggravated assault, and homicide numbers.)
MLeake is offline  
Old April 19, 2011, 09:54 PM   #70
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Dear MLeake,

Sorry, but you truly have me pegged incorrectly. Just as in my personal home defense, I have layers of defense, so likewise is my own take on dog protection as well. I ALWAYS carry a stout walking stick when out doors walking even when I am in Idaho where I ALWAYS carry at all times as well. Multiple options including knowing your surroundings is all part of the self defense package as well as avoiding situations in the first place.

Thank you for your suggestions anyway, but truly not necessary. Way ahead of you on those issues.

Back to dog attacks, they do happen, they are quite common although fatal attacks are fortunately rare, shooting a dog in self defense in an urban setting will likely always be problematic with all of the no shoot ordinances no matter what city or state it occurs, but if pressed to the point of no choice, I will choose to protect myself, and my family and get a call to my lawyer pronto. Understanding the rules and regulations of where you live is essential. I hope I never need to use deadly force against a dog or other creature for that matter, but I will and am prepared as best I can depending on where I am at the moment.

Likewise, when out in the woods hunting in Idaho, I have my .444 Marlin lever gun over one shoulder or my .300 WSM Browning BLR depending on what the agenda is for the day, my constant carry SP101 pocket carry and my .44 magnum in cross carry bandolier style. Am I paranoid? a bit, but how far is paranoia separated from simply being prepared for all situations.

Same answer with simply taking a walk down the street. With the popularity of pit bulls in every other house it seems, is that really being paranoid to want something that will stop those beasts? Not in my mind. I have heard too many stories of what those creatures can do to a person that I don't want to find out first hand for myself. Pepper spray is not an effective deterrent against many of these large dogs nor is a silent whistle something that I would rely upon. Any dog that would bite me is a dog that has the potential to easily kill a small child especially those breeds I mentioned above.

I have had two near dog attacks in my life, one with a Rottwieler, one with a German Shepherd. Fortunately, someone came along and scared the first one off with his car, and the second one I had a 2X4 right at my feet when he charged which proved very useful at the moment. I suspect there are a whole lot of folks on this forum who can tell of their dog encounters. So, just be prepared with what you have legally available to you in your place of residence which does indeed include the legal right to carry if it is available to you. By the way, bear pepper spray is not legal other than for bears, mace is not likely enough for a pit bull.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old April 22, 2011, 01:57 PM   #71
440SAW
Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2011
Location: Plymouth, CT
Posts: 17
First thing, using an authoritative NO, NO, NO act to stop the DOG because they are conditioned to listen to the A Dog. (does that mean Alpha or Authoritative or both?)
Second thing, observe and react. If biting starts: try it again moving close with defense in hand.
Obviously avert serious injury or death of the human, the other person or you.
__________________
Freedom is something you can't take for granted.
440SAW is offline  
Old April 22, 2011, 04:36 PM   #72
Eagle Eye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 10, 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 178
440SAW -- Huh?

Last edited by Eagle Eye; April 23, 2011 at 12:58 AM.
Eagle Eye is offline  
Old April 22, 2011, 04:49 PM   #73
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
Sorry, I am a dialysis patient which makes me at huge risk of infections, I am not going to wait for the bite.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old April 23, 2011, 11:43 AM   #74
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 6,126
Premeditation

Just a note here. Several people have mentioned dogs in their neighborhood that they consider threats. That is in this thread and other similar ones. Among those people some have considered the use of deadly force.

Last week at one of the dog parks we go to I met a fellow that claimed that he and his dog had been attacked on three different occasions by a particular animal. This gentleman said that he had warned to owner that if the attacking dog were not controlled in the future he would "end it". The gentleman made clear that he meant to use a firearm.

So the question is, if you know there is the potential for a dog attack, do you have the responsibility to arm yourself with non-lethal means of defense?
After all a stun gun or dog spray will effectively stop a dog attack. More importantly pepper spray is safer to use in a place that might have many people and other animals.
Back to the gentleman, I suggested dog spray and then reminded him of the 4 rules, including being sure of what was behind your target. He was dismissive of both suggestions.

I'd also add that in the year that we've been going to dog parks I've seen several instances that were described as "attacks", which imho were either dominance displays or over enthusiastic play.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old April 23, 2011, 12:23 PM   #75
JerryM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,889
I guess I am a little surprised that there is any doubt. The use of deadly force is permitted on humans if there is fear of death or great bodily harm.

Dogs can inflict both, and so if one is charging or attacking me or someone else I would not hesitate to shoot it if I could do so safely.

Once I get the dog neutralized I'll deal with the owner if he wants to extract vengeance then or later. If I fear for my life or great bodily harm I do not have time to worry about consequences when a dog is attacking me.

Regards,
Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
JerryM is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12379 seconds with 9 queries