Fire Forming

ammo.crafter · January 16, 2018, 10:37 PM

I have been converting 30-30 brass to 7x30 Waters using a minimal published powder load and less expensive bullet.

Has anyone fire formed using Cream Of Wheat (COW) for this purpose?

Is there any relationship between a published load (gun powder) and the COW?

Pro's and/or con's to this method?

Northof50 · January 16, 2018, 10:46 PM

ammo.crafter - I've never used the COW, but have used reduced loads with heavy bullets. The big issue with the 30-30 case, which you probably already know, is that the brass is thin. I've not found them to last very long. They are very prone to stretching and splitting. They need constant trimming. I've had a couple split in two, just above the web. I ended up rechambering mine to 7JDJ [shoulder moved forward a bit and at a sharper angle].

It is a great round though. Just wish the brass was a bit thicker.

ammo.crafter · January 17, 2018, 12:52 AM

Thanks for the info!

HiBC · January 17, 2018, 12:38 PM

I have used Cream of Wheat for case forming. Its quite misunderstood.

You do not use a bullet when using Cream of Wheat. I don't care to write it all again.Please use your search function.Do not use COW with a bullet.

You might check Ken Waters "Pet Loads" The 7-30 is his baby.I would guess he tells how to form it.

I have made it from 30-30. First,I think originally Ken used .225 Win brass.
30-30 will work,but .225 may have been made for higher pressures.

Its a rimmed case,which controls headspace.If you take care with your die setting ,if you stop the 7mm neck in the right place,so it just goes into battery and locks up,that will help hold the case head snug against the breech face.
In a Contender,this cartridge was prone to stretch rings.

That's really all that is important,that the case head stays against the breech face.
That,and I'd use only virgin brass. "Experienced "brass may split on you.

Load middle of the road published starting loads and shoot some.Maybe just make 10 till you know what works.

If this goes in a tubular mag,used the flat point bullets made for it .Pointy bullets on primers in a tube mag can get too exciting.

Do use the paper clip trick to check for stretch rings every load. We only got about4 loadings.
You might need to trim after.

F. Guffey · January 17, 2018, 01:40 PM

Fire forming: I form first and then fire. When I ejected a case after firing I call it a once fired case, seems everyone else calls it a fire formed case.

F. Guffey

old roper · January 17, 2018, 07:23 PM

Ken Waters wildcat is not the 7-30 Waters case. Federal changed 30-30 case instead of using Waters 30-30 case and Federal increased case capacity by 2grs.

Since you have to blow shoulder forward you would have to form false shoulder so shoulder hold case and you could fire without bullet (COW method).

I've done that in the pass. By the time you buy all that you be better just to form with a bullet.

Ken Waters data for 7-30 Waters, he used Federal 7-30 Waters cases.

Northof50 · January 17, 2018, 07:59 PM

HiBC - I don't think Ken used a 225 case. JD Jones used the very strong 225 as a standard case for many of his wildcats. The 225, though much thicker than 30-30 has too small of a rim [.473"] where the 30-30 is larger [.506"]. The 30-30 is also longer, but narrower at the web.

I'm pretty certain JD Jones did make a 7mm from the 225 case. I know the 6.5 and 6 were made; the 6.5JDJ being very popular at one time.

Northof50 · January 17, 2018, 08:26 PM

HiBC - since reading your post, I've been reviewing the dimensions of the 225 and 30-30. That would be very interesting to try. Ha! Now I have to find some 225 cases. They would be so much better to use.

ocharry · January 18, 2018, 11:47 AM

i just did that COW fire form thing a month or so back,,,250 savage to 250 Ackley Improved,,,it worked out very nice,,,i used new virgin hornady 250 savage brass,,came out beautiful,,,stretched everything equal and perfect,,,,no bullets wasted just used stuff i already had and some toilet paper

put in some fast burning pistol powder a wad of TP and fill to bottom of neck with COW and top off with a wad of TP,,,i tamped the TP down so it would stay where i put it,,,fixed up 1 to try and see about my pistol powder charge,,first one was a little weak,,,added a couple grains for next try,,,still a little weak ,,,so tweaked the charge a couple more grains,,,,and as goldy locks says it was just right,,,lol,,,got them all loaded up and sat on the patio and formed the brass,,,i did run a cleaning jag through the barrel ever 6-7 shots to help with final cleaning and make sure there wasnt any clinkers forming in there,,,lol

read Mr. Ken Waters articles,,so you have an idea where you are going

what i liked about this ,,, i have new virgin brass,,,fire formed with out a bullet ( NO BULLET ),,,perfectly formed brass to the chamber,,,,and then when the process is done,,,still new virgin brass that fits the chamber ready for real load and a bullet

then load work up,,,which i might add turned out very good too,,,this old 99 is still a shooter

many thanks to the guiding hand of the guys here,,,especially HiBC,,,,after a few days he sent me a PM to check up on the grass hoppers progress ,,,,very nice touch,,,thanks again

my .02

ocharry

hdwhit · January 18, 2018, 11:39 PM

Quote:

ammo.crafter asked:
Has anyone fire formed using Cream Of Wheat (COW) for this purpose?

Yes.

You are using the cream of wheat (COW) as a substitute for the bullet. It simply gives the gasses produced by the burning powder something to push against. If the originator of the cartridge has not provided a quantity to use, you will have to experiment.

Remember, you just want the pressure to rise high enough to push the brass against the chamber walls, so err on the side of low powder charges and small amounts of of COW.

Also, COW is not the only substance you can use. COW became a standard because at one time it was readily available in bulk, it was cheap, it didn't melt in the barrel and it otherwise worked.

A lot of time time, I can only find COW in single-serving packages where it is hideously expensive. Other things that can work as well would be oatmeal, cut rolled oats, ground hominy, grits (another form of hominy), or corn meal (particularly the coarse ground forms like massa). Avoid things that would be abrasive like sand and things that can melt like polystyrene beads or polyester fiberfill.

HiBC · January 19, 2018, 03:11 AM

Its Deja Vu,all over again!!

The "search" will get you to this post, "COW"

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...cream+of+wheat

In the name of keeping safe.... To recommend substituting other materials for COW,when using Bullseye or other fast pistol powder...seems irresponsible unless you have tested every media you recommend.

I suggest going to the thread above ,and reading it. Particularly post # 14,by Unclenick.

IMO,when Unclenick weighs in,it is worth paying attention. He knows his stuff.

FWIW, IMO, the COW technique has merit for necking up.I use it when the desired caliber,or bore,is larger than what a seated bullet would be.

If the brass caliber matches bore dia,I just use a bullet and powder. No filler.

I have never invested in forming dies,such as Reddings. It has been my experience that making do by forcing a decapper/expander spindle to do the job of necking up yields mediocre to poor results...eccentric and non uniform necks.
I have had excellent results necking up ,even blowing 30-40 Krag brass (long ago,when it was readily available)out to an essentially straight wall 40-70 Sharps,40-60 Maynard,and 40-50 Sharps. Its a great way to make 35 Whelen.

In this case,the OP is necking down 30-30 to 7mm.That is easily done in a 7-30 sizing die..You will create a small,30 cal to 7mm shoulder when you do that.If you set your die with care,that will act as a headspace feature tohold the case head snug to the breech face.

While you probably could successfully use COW for this job,..if I was doing this job,I'd use a bullet,a primer,and powder. That's it.

If,on the quicker end of the burn chart,a recommended starting load was a 150 grain bullet with 30 grains of Boomandflash powder,I'd take my Lee hand press ,primed brass,and some powder to the range.I'd load 5 rounds 30 grains Boomandflash and shoot them.If I got good brass,I'd load and shoot them all.If it looked like I needed more pressure,I'd add more powder. No COW.

Its just not that hard.

I'm not going to look it up,but is 30-30 the parent case for 38-55? If not,you get the idea,anyway. I'd blow 30-30 brass out to 38-55 with Bullseye and COW.If I used virgin brass I'm sure I'd get great results.My guess is I'd start with 3 grains of Bullseye. I'd expect good results at about 5 gr. At about 7 gr I might assess the situation.I don't think I'd do much more.

And I would not use anything but COW,even if I had to order it from Amazon.

January 16, 2018, 10:37 PM	#1
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	Fire Forming I have been converting 30-30 brass to 7x30 Waters using a minimal published powder load and less expensive bullet. Has anyone fire formed using Cream Of Wheat (COW) for this purpose? Is there any relationship between a published load (gun powder) and the COW? Pro's and/or con's to this method? __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

January 17, 2018, 12:52 AM	#3
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	777777 Thanks for the info! __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

January 17, 2018, 07:23 PM	#6
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	Ken Waters wildcat is not the 7-30 Waters case. Federal changed 30-30 case instead of using Waters 30-30 case and Federal increased case capacity by 2grs. Since you have to blow shoulder forward you would have to form false shoulder so shoulder hold case and you could fire without bullet (COW method). I've done that in the pass. By the time you buy all that you be better just to form with a bullet. Ken Waters data for 7-30 Waters, he used Federal 7-30 Waters cases. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

January 18, 2018, 11:47 AM	#9
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 685	i just did that COW fire form thing a month or so back,,,250 savage to 250 Ackley Improved,,,it worked out very nice,,,i used new virgin hornady 250 savage brass,,came out beautiful,,,stretched everything equal and perfect,,,,no bullets wasted just used stuff i already had and some toilet paper put in some fast burning pistol powder a wad of TP and fill to bottom of neck with COW and top off with a wad of TP,,,i tamped the TP down so it would stay where i put it,,,fixed up 1 to try and see about my pistol powder charge,,first one was a little weak,,,added a couple grains for next try,,,still a little weak ,,,so tweaked the charge a couple more grains,,,,and as goldy locks says it was just right,,,lol,,,got them all loaded up and sat on the patio and formed the brass,,,i did run a cleaning jag through the barrel ever 6-7 shots to help with final cleaning and make sure there wasnt any clinkers forming in there,,,lol read Mr. Ken Waters articles,,so you have an idea where you are going what i liked about this ,,, i have new virgin brass,,,fire formed with out a bullet ( NO BULLET ),,,perfectly formed brass to the chamber,,,,and then when the process is done,,,still new virgin brass that fits the chamber ready for real load and a bullet then load work up,,,which i might add turned out very good too,,,this old 99 is still a shooter many thanks to the guiding hand of the guys here,,,especially HiBC,,,,after a few days he sent me a PM to check up on the grass hoppers progress ,,,,very nice touch,,,thanks again my .02 ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

January 16, 2018, 10:46 PM	#2
Northof50 Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2018 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 232	ammo.crafter - I've never used the COW, but have used reduced loads with heavy bullets. The big issue with the 30-30 case, which you probably already know, is that the brass is thin. I've not found them to last very long. They are very prone to stretching and splitting. They need constant trimming. I've had a couple split in two, just above the web. I ended up rechambering mine to 7JDJ [shoulder moved forward a bit and at a sharper angle]. It is a great round though. Just wish the brass was a bit thicker.

January 17, 2018, 12:38 PM	#4
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I have used Cream of Wheat for case forming. Its quite misunderstood. You do not use a bullet when using Cream of Wheat. I don't care to write it all again.Please use your search function.Do not use COW with a bullet. You might check Ken Waters "Pet Loads" The 7-30 is his baby.I would guess he tells how to form it. I have made it from 30-30. First,I think originally Ken used .225 Win brass. 30-30 will work,but .225 may have been made for higher pressures. Its a rimmed case,which controls headspace.If you take care with your die setting ,if you stop the 7mm neck in the right place,so it just goes into battery and locks up,that will help hold the case head snug against the breech face. In a Contender,this cartridge was prone to stretch rings. That's really all that is important,that the case head stays against the breech face. That,and I'd use only virgin brass. "Experienced "brass may split on you. Load middle of the road published starting loads and shoot some.Maybe just make 10 till you know what works. If this goes in a tubular mag,used the flat point bullets made for it .Pointy bullets on primers in a tube mag can get too exciting. Do use the paper clip trick to check for stretch rings every load. We only got about4 loadings. You might need to trim after.

January 17, 2018, 01:40 PM	#5
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Fire forming: I form first and then fire. When I ejected a case after firing I call it a once fired case, seems everyone else calls it a fire formed case. F. Guffey

January 17, 2018, 07:59 PM	#7
Northof50 Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2018 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 232	HiBC - I don't think Ken used a 225 case. JD Jones used the very strong 225 as a standard case for many of his wildcats. The 225, though much thicker than 30-30 has too small of a rim [.473"] where the 30-30 is larger [.506"]. The 30-30 is also longer, but narrower at the web. I'm pretty certain JD Jones did make a 7mm from the 225 case. I know the 6.5 and 6 were made; the 6.5JDJ being very popular at one time.

January 17, 2018, 08:26 PM	#8
Northof50 Junior member Join Date: January 5, 2018 Location: Northeast USA Posts: 232	HiBC - since reading your post, I've been reviewing the dimensions of the 225 and 30-30. That would be very interesting to try. Ha! Now I have to find some 225 cases. They would be so much better to use.

January 19, 2018, 03:11 AM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Its Deja Vu,all over again!! The "search" will get you to this post, "COW" https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...cream+of+wheat In the name of keeping safe.... To recommend substituting other materials for COW,when using Bullseye or other fast pistol powder...seems irresponsible unless you have tested every media you recommend. I suggest going to the thread above ,and reading it. Particularly post # 14,by Unclenick. IMO,when Unclenick weighs in,it is worth paying attention. He knows his stuff. FWIW, IMO, the COW technique has merit for necking up.I use it when the desired caliber,or bore,is larger than what a seated bullet would be. If the brass caliber matches bore dia,I just use a bullet and powder. No filler. I have never invested in forming dies,such as Reddings. It has been my experience that making do by forcing a decapper/expander spindle to do the job of necking up yields mediocre to poor results...eccentric and non uniform necks. I have had excellent results necking up ,even blowing 30-40 Krag brass (long ago,when it was readily available)out to an essentially straight wall 40-70 Sharps,40-60 Maynard,and 40-50 Sharps. Its a great way to make 35 Whelen. In this case,the OP is necking down 30-30 to 7mm.That is easily done in a 7-30 sizing die..You will create a small,30 cal to 7mm shoulder when you do that.If you set your die with care,that will act as a headspace feature tohold the case head snug to the breech face. While you probably could successfully use COW for this job,..if I was doing this job,I'd use a bullet,a primer,and powder. That's it. If,on the quicker end of the burn chart,a recommended starting load was a 150 grain bullet with 30 grains of Boomandflash powder,I'd take my Lee hand press ,primed brass,and some powder to the range.I'd load 5 rounds 30 grains Boomandflash and shoot them.If I got good brass,I'd load and shoot them all.If it looked like I needed more pressure,I'd add more powder. No COW. Its just not that hard. I'm not going to look it up,but is 30-30 the parent case for 38-55? If not,you get the idea,anyway. I'd blow 30-30 brass out to 38-55 with Bullseye and COW.If I used virgin brass I'm sure I'd get great results.My guess is I'd start with 3 grains of Bullseye. I'd expect good results at about 5 gr. At about 7 gr I might assess the situation.I don't think I'd do much more. And I would not use anything but COW,even if I had to order it from Amazon.