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Old October 12, 2017, 06:20 AM   #1
OhioGuy
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High round counts for civilians

Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter? I probably would define "high" here as "more than would fit in a commonly carried CCW weapon."

So let's just say "more than six" since I'd have to start somewhere.

What about "More than 12?" To represent a revolver or single-stack gun with one reload.

More than 15? To represent the midsize semi-auto, Glock 19 or equivalent.

30? The above, with a reload.

I ask because in the seemingly endless "how much ammo is enough" discussions, examples are frequently given from law enforcement in which a cop had to take down two criminals, and he hit them both 8 times but they kept on coming, so thank goodness he had two spare magazines with him that day, etc.

But of course, the majority of civilians would never be in comparable situations because those usually arise from police chasing, arresting and intervening with armed criminals. So I don't see the applicability of that data to the CCW case. I always hear this rule of thumb that "3 shots, 3 seconds, 3 feet away" represents the most likely violent encounter.

Anyway, please post if you are aware of concrete examples. I am not trying to start another double-vs-single stack or everyone-vs-revolvers debate. I
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Old October 12, 2017, 08:33 AM   #2
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I havnt seen a lot of those statistics. Depends on the situation, and all are different.
0 is enough if the bad guy believes it’s in his interest for you not to shoot.
1 if you’re a marksman and stop the threat with 1 shot.

It goes up from there to infinity if you’re taking on a cartel squad or a SWAT-like team.
But if you read NRA’s Armed Citizen, it would appear 1 mag of 10 would be enough 90+% of the time.
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Old October 12, 2017, 09:32 AM   #3
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The 3 3 3 quote is a, misunderstood quote.
The FBI doesn't keep distance stats except for officer fatalities.
And the average is more like 4 to 5 ft. Even for that.
If your arming and training for 3 ft 3 rds 3 sec, your training to die.
Info can be found at at fbi. gov site.
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Old October 12, 2017, 09:36 AM   #4
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I have seen several videos where a civilian emptied several magazines or guns. Usually while defending home or business.
The Jewelery store owner with a half dozen revolvers.
There was a guy who has a shoot out from in his house to a car full of people in a car in the driveway.
A second magazine is also important for malfunctions.

The better question is, are there any documented cases of CCWers being found dead with empty guns.

This guy seems to run out of rounds, but not in the US. Video is jaw dropping though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMADRu9CE9w

Here is one that includes the shooting in the driveway. Attempted home invasion with a full auto involved I believe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps3gPpjLNJw

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; October 12, 2017 at 09:42 AM.
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Old October 12, 2017, 09:38 AM   #5
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Added. The only substantial study of distances I'm aware of ever done was for police magazine by Fairborn. The distance average was 14 ft.

The attack can happen at any distance from 2 ft to 50 yrds or more. By any number of attackers.
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Old October 12, 2017, 09:40 AM   #6
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If your arming and training for 3 ft 3 rds 3 sec, your training to die.
My thoughts exactly!
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Old October 12, 2017, 10:13 AM   #7
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The Greg Ferris stories have multiple shots fired. Ayoob has written it up. Two robberies at a gun store where Ferris used several guns in the course of the fights, IIRC.

http://proarmspodcast.com/107-ferris...rms-robberies/ - This is one of the incidents.

I'd note for the shotgun fans.

1. You can miss close up with a shotgun.
2. The pellets can go across the street
3. There was a civil suit threat even in this clearly self-defense incident.
4. The shotgun was effective.
5. Under stress, Greg forgets his sights on the first shot.

Second incident

1. Bad guy screws up a shotgun and missed close up.
2. Greg fires 7 shots from a 38 Super
3. Assistant joins fight with shotgun multiple shots
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Old October 13, 2017, 05:40 AM   #8
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Take this for what it's worth.
Depending on the scenario, location, and a host of other factors, a SD shooting incident may not involve taking a bead on a full profile adversary(like the cardboard targets at the range). I live in rural America and there are many situations in which simply returning fire will be enough to discourage an aggressor. With less concern that misses may injure innocents, I may be able to stop the attack w/o ever hitting the attacker. Put this into perspective: Bad guy thinks he's the only armed participant only to discover those buzzing sounds are bullets flying past him. Bad guy changes mind and boogies. I have no problem at all sending bullets at, near, or around the BG so yes, a high round count is worthwhile.
In the military, returning fire even if inaccurate is VERY important. First thing in an ambush is establish fire superiority. You can't do that with a 5 shot snubby.
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Old October 13, 2017, 07:04 AM   #9
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I wonder if Jim Cirillo ever needed 15 rounds ??
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Old October 13, 2017, 09:11 AM   #10
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I recently seen a video in I wanna say India?, Guy had a revolver, 3 attackers, he hit a couple of them but ran out and then they beat him with sticks.

If it's a 1on1 encounter I think a 5 shot 38 will get you thru it usually.
And I know several instructors who carry as such.

Look no one knows what you'll encounter that's why those of us carry do so in the first place.

However I'd rather have more than I need.
I carry 18+1 +1 reload, and it would be +2 reload if I had room on the belt.
I feel very comfortable with this level.

Having said that regardless of where the rule of 3 came from.
I believe that is the most common scenario, Logically it makes sense but I prefer to have it and not needed it then need it and not have it.
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Old October 13, 2017, 09:13 AM   #11
Glenn E. Meyer
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Every time this comes up, you support the antigunners' wish to ban higher capacity magazines.

It is that simple. Do we have to do this discussion again?

Would Jim Cirillo say to ban higher capacity guns as you don't need more?! If it saves one life!

He carried two revolvers and a shotgun usually on stakeouts. I guess he wanted more than 5 - and he probably was a pretty good shot compared to most.
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Old October 13, 2017, 10:50 AM   #12
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Bat Masterson - originally a revolver guy - says 10 shots from a semi:


https://americanhandgunner.com/savag...n-shots-quick/



Check out these gun fights and analysis:

1. Number of assailants - do you see that many were more than one? Yes.
2. Recommendation - gun with 8 or more rounds.
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Old October 13, 2017, 11:48 AM   #13
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"...FBI doesn't keep..." Highly unlikely anybody else does either. It'd be a useless statistic that really means little. The whole mag capacity argument by the assorted anti-firearm gangs is mostly the result of pretending to do something about criminal activity. Nothing to do with CCW. There are very few documented incidents where CCW holders were involved at all.
"...wanna say India..." No military or police cartridges allowed for civilians in India. Biggest allowed is .32 S&W.
"...3 feet away"..." Both shooters die or are severely injured.
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Old October 13, 2017, 12:38 PM   #14
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I keep two speed strips in my pocket when carrying my SP101, for a total of 17 rounds. When I carry my full sized semi-autos, I don't carry any extra mags. I'm not looking to get into any prolonged shoot outs, so the 14-17 rounds should be more than enough. If not, I guess I get to meet Jesus sooner than I thought.
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Old October 13, 2017, 12:45 PM   #15
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Extra mags for semis are also for malfunctions.
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Old October 13, 2017, 01:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire....
Are you under the impression that there is a process for collecting such data?

When you read news accounts of self defense shootings, do you routinely see any specific mention of how many rounds were fired by defenders?

If you had any such data, what might you expect to conclude from them?
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Old October 13, 2017, 09:42 PM   #17
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[QUOTE=OhioGuy;6521790]Does anyone know of any documented cases of a civilian (CCW in particular) needing to fire a "high" number of rounds in a defensive encounter?... QUOTE]

I am guessing the answer is, "No."

But, John Wick would not even consider carrying a single stack, much less, God forbid, a wheelgun.
Jack Reacher would neither.
Nor, Matt Damon.

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Old October 13, 2017, 09:49 PM   #18
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Speculation about what fictional characters and actors may or may not do is entirely off topic.
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Old October 13, 2017, 09:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
The 3 3 3 quote is a, misunderstood quote.
The FBI doesn't keep distance stats except for officer fatalities.
And the average is more like 4 to 5 ft. Even for that.
If your arming and training for 3 ft 3 rds 3 sec, your training to die.
Info can be found at at fbi. gov site.
"if you're arming and training for 3 ft, 3 rds, 3 sec"

OTOH, I would take the trouble to use your defense gun
up close on some paper. POI may surprise you. Usually not
the same POI as 7 or 10 yards. Single handed up close, and weak hand
drills may also be in order.
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Old October 13, 2017, 10:07 PM   #20
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It's hard to find that kind of information.

Lance Thomas was involved in 4 different gunfights when he had a storefront jewelry/watch store. Because he was involved in so many gunfights and survived them all, at least two authors wrote about him. As a result we have more information about his gunfights than is normal.

In one of his gunfights, he fired 3 shots.
In the second he fired 19 shots, emptying 3 guns in the process.
In the third, 8 shots.
In the fourth, he fired more than 10 shots. I can't find an exact figure. He had to reload at least once in this gunfight and the author characterized the total number of shots he fired in all 4 gunfights as "more than 40" which means that this fight had to account for more than 10.

So yes, more than 6. Yes, more than 12. Yes, more than 15.

In terms of a full-sized carry pistol like a Glock 19, his highest round count gunfight would be equivalent to emptying the gun and getting part of the way through a spare magazine.

In terms of a single-stack pistol holding 9 rounds (8+1), it would be equivalent to emptying the gun, reloading and emptying the gun again, reloading a second time and firing 2 more rounds.

In terms of a compact .380ACP holding 6+1 rounds, it would be equivalent to emptying the gun, reloading twice and being left with an empty gun when everything is over.
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Old October 13, 2017, 10:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danoobie View Post
"if you're arming and training for 3 ft, 3 rds, 3 sec"

OTOH, I would take the trouble to use your defense gun
up close on some paper. POI may surprise you. Usually not
the same POI as 7 or 10 yards. Single handed up close, and weak hand
drills may also be in order.
I drill from 3 yrds to 50 yrds.

At 3 to 5 yards weak or strong hand I wouldnt know the difference in POI cuz I don't use the sights.
Why would you at 3 yrds? With either hand?
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Old October 13, 2017, 11:02 PM   #22
John J. McCarthy, Jr
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I don't care about statistics saying this or that is most likely to happen. Since every fight is different and unique, what may happen to you (or me) will be something that has never happened before.

I carry a 1911 and a .357 revolver (GP100) and I train myself to shoot until reload. I carry two reloads worth of spare ammo.

I will also carry a J-Frame loaded with +P's as a back-up. I will have two reloads ready to go for this gun too.
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Old October 13, 2017, 11:09 PM   #23
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I don't care about statistics saying this or that is most likely to happen. Since every fight is different and unique, what may happen to you (or me) will be something that has never happened before.




Bingo!!!!
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Old October 14, 2017, 08:26 AM   #24
OhioGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
Every time this comes up, you support the antigunners' wish to ban higher capacity magazines.

It is that simple. Do we have to do this discussion again?

Would Jim Cirillo say to ban higher capacity guns as you don't need more?! If it saves one life!

He carried two revolvers and a shotgun usually on stakeouts. I guess he wanted more than 5 - and he probably was a pretty good shot compared to most.
I think that's kind of a stretch. Asking about or discussing what counts as a sufficient level of preparedness -- as vague as that will always be -- has nothing to do with high capacity magazines.

"I don't feel the need to carry a 30 round magazine when I'm out and about" = "I support crusades to ban 30 round magazines for everyone."

I'm not sure I see the logic in that. Anti-gunners will seize upon such statistics, sure. They seize upon everything. They seize upon the statistic that the vast majority of people go their entire lives without a life-threatening armed encounter to claim that concealed carry is unnecessary and should be replaced with "common sense laws" i.e. no guns for anyone except elk hunters (maybe).

Would my choice to not carry, and my asking how often CCWers have to draw their weapons, mean that I support others' attempts to ban CCW entirely?
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Old October 14, 2017, 08:34 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John J. McCarthy, Jr View Post
I don't care about statistics saying this or that is most likely to happen. Since every fight is different and unique, what may happen to you (or me) will be something that has never happened before.

I carry a 1911 and a .357 revolver (GP100) and I train myself to shoot until reload. I carry two reloads worth of spare ammo.

I will also carry a J-Frame loaded with +P's as a back-up. I will have two reloads ready to go for this gun too.
Sure, every such discussion is theoretical and even if 100% of all cases were X, it's still possible that Y could happen to me. If I'm present when four terrorists in body armor pull out rifles, my Glock with 8 spare magazines may very well not "be enough." Taking professional driving classes may not be enough to save me from some moron who's driving while Facebooking. But I still think norms can be helpful. We all have to make a decision somewhere about what's enough for ourselves, and it comes down to a feeling more than data. One person feels safe sleeping with unlocked doors, another has guns staged in every room and a video surveillance system. But each "feels" safe. Whether either is "right" can only be known by what happens, or doesn't.

In all likelihood, no gun will be enough for me for the rest of my time on earth. So a 6-round gun gives me 6 more than the nothing I had.

For myself, my feelings of security tend to follow some process of reasoning about what's likely to happen, though I fully know that nothing is guaranteed. I also figure that over-preparing can't really hurt anything, other than creating some inconvenience and expense. I've found I can carry a double-stack with spare mag for almost no perceived difference in comfort than a gun with half the capacity. So why not? My problem is basically solved.

I just see that when these endless discussions start (which I may have restarted!) they usually either (a) are entirely speculations and what-ifs, or (b) appeal to data from police and military encounters. I understand that's often the only data available. But demonstrating that a cop with only 15 rounds found it insufficient in a gunfight with criminals probably (?) doesn't apply to the rest of us, because we aren't going into the situation to arrest someone to begin with.

Anywas, thanks for the responses!

Maybe I can carry a bullwhip. No permit required and people will probably think I'm weird enough that they'll just avoid me anyway
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