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Old June 8, 2016, 10:57 PM   #1
Metal god
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Best 45acp powder , with specific requirements

Ok I'm sure this is asked 50 times a year but I thought I'd add a twist-ish by putting forth the things I want in the powder that would make it best for me

First lets start with the bullet/s I'll use the most . 200gr plated RN about 75% of the time . 230gr lead and plated RN 20% of the time and 230gr JHP 5% of the time

Firearms used . XD45 compact & Springfield 5" 1911

What I want from the powder .

Clean burning , Not kinda clean , not clean enough . I want a powder that every reloader would say oh yeah that's some clean burning powder .

Forgiving , Meaning consistent and not to temperamental

Velocity is not a big deal but I would like the 230gr JHP's to get up over 900fps

Meters really well . Not pretty good but GREAT !

NO ! scorched or sooty cases , NONE !!!!

Powders I have

Titegroup
WSF
HS-6
CFE-pistol
Auto comp
Longshot

The only one of those that even comes close to all of the above is Titegroup . How ever I've heard it can be temperamental pushing the heavier bullets which then gives it a negative for getting the 230gr bullets up in the 900fps+ range .

Locally it's slim pickins around here and what is around is $34 lb . I went to the gun show a few weeks ago for primers and bullets and saw they had a good amount of powders to choose from . I'll be going again on July 9th .

What other powders meet my specs as far as what I would consider "best" powder ?
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Old June 8, 2016, 11:18 PM   #2
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Hodgdon's Universal comes to mind.
"Clays" also. But, it can be "tempermental". It is a great powder for the .45acp. Super clean, easy[soft] recoil and accurate as heck.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:01 AM   #3
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I think you're looking for MUF powder.

Magical Unicorn Fart powder, manufactured by Leprechaun Industries.
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Old June 9, 2016, 07:15 AM   #4
1100 tac
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What Mike said!
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Old June 9, 2016, 08:27 AM   #5
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What Mike said...

I like how you say "velocity is not a big deal", but yet you want to push a 230 grain FMJ 900+ FPS. The fastest load in my Lyman manual is only 878. Come on now.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:12 AM   #6
Mike Irwin
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Personally I want a powder that returns my gun to factory new condition every time I pull the trigger.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:15 AM   #7
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LOL I've heard of that manufacture . They're over there at the end of Rainbow lane right .

Quote:
I like how you say "velocity is not a big deal", but yet you want to push a 230 grain FMJ 900+ FPS.
If you consider my percentages , I only am looking for 900fps+ 5% of the time . That would indicate to me the 900fps aspect on the whole is not that important .

I've seen data that shows Longshot , 800x and CFE pistol all pushing 230gr JHP over 900fps . For lead I think there's at least one more maybe two . I willing to use a different powder for that 5% , Example : Universal will do 95% of my loads and CFE will do the other 5%
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:20 AM   #8
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Regarding scorched/sooty brass...

You do realize that that's a factor of a wide variety of things, not just the powder itself, right?

Chamber pressure, brass hardness, bullet neck tension, condition of chamber, etc., all can have an effect on whether the brass obturates fully or not.

And, if you're shooting lead even part of the time, powder cleanliness really becomes a null factor because bullet lube creates a significant amount of dirt in the gun.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:25 AM   #9
Jim Watson
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Clean burning powder is a small part of the equation.

I think new cases with a primer seated hard to the very bottom of that pristine pocket and a jacketed or plated bullet seated tight in clean springy new brass will shoot clean with most powders.
Hmm. Something to work on when it is too hot or cold for volume shooting.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:28 AM   #10
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Quote:
You do realize that that's a factor of a wide variety of things, not just the powder itself, right?
I do and the reason It's in the spec is I tried CFE pistol with 200gr JHP and could not get away from the sooty scorched cases . Even at max charges . It appears to slow a burn for that light for caliber bullet . Hodgdon has it right around the same burn as HS-6 and Auto comp . Had I known that at the time I would not have bought it seeing how I already had the other two .
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
I want a powder that every reloader would say oh yeah that's some clean burning powder .
1. No such powder exists.

2. You will, find nothing that every reloader agrees on.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:35 AM   #12
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So, if you do realize it, then you do realize that it's an expectation that NO powder can meet 100% of the time because it can be caused by factors outside of the powder's burn cleanliness, right?

Even the cleanest burning powder can, and will, soot and scorch cases.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:42 AM   #13
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Spending more time at the range would be more productive than trying to save time at the cleaning bench or cogitation over the perfect (and largely imaginary) load.
It's a lot more fun, too.
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Old June 9, 2016, 09:46 AM   #14
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Try VV N340. You may be in for a surprise.
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Old June 9, 2016, 10:02 AM   #15
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I was looking at N-320 , but N-340 may do it

Quote:
So, if you do realize it, then you do realize that it's an expectation that NO powder can meet 100% of the time because it can be caused by factors outside of the powder's burn cleanliness, right?
Yep and I see where you're going here . Lets nip all that in the bud before it gets out of hand in the thread . Lets assume and or look for guys that found the magical fart powder . What is it ? What did you have to do to make it work perfect for you ? Seat bullet deeper , crimp harder , over max charge , duplex loads , different types of brass , magnum primers in standard loads ?

If we need to we can take out the 900fps and and change it to 800fps +
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Old June 9, 2016, 10:17 AM   #16
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"Lets assume and or look for guys that found the magical fart powder . What is it ?"

Well, literally, not getting too bent out of shape/wrapped around the axle trying to achieve what is realistically not achievable combined with enjoying shooting my guns and not sweating the fact that powder residue happens.
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Old June 9, 2016, 11:40 AM   #17
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Your request has been around for years at the powder Mfg. lab.

As for you since you are a reloader you might want to try and experiment a little bit with what you want and make your own decision how to get it.

It's time to think on your own.

That's only my opinion.
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Old June 9, 2016, 11:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Well, literally, not getting too bent out of shape/wrapped around the axle trying to achieve what is realistically not achievable combined with enjoying shooting my guns and not sweating the fact that powder residue happens.
Oh hey no , I'm not trying to be snarky . I get your point completely . I wanted to just stop the , well if you try this with that and you do this then you can't have that type of posts . I know there are a lot of variables to consider .

Example of my point and or what I'm looking for . I could not find pistol powder for a couple years locally and did not want to buy bulk online because handgun loading is/was new to me . Only been loading pistol for about a year and did not want to buy 10 or 20 lbs of powder I ended up unhappy with . The first two powders I found were Longshot and Auto comp . They were both very dirty , sooty , scorching powders . Then one day I came across Titegroup and bought some . It seemed like I found my fart powder . I like it a lot , it burns real clean for me and zero scorching in both 45 and 9mm . That's what got me thinking with all the powders out there . Maybe there's even a better powder then Titegroup .

So I started a thread asking what's the best . I felt it would be best to narrow down the powders possibilities though . I've read enough about 45 powders to know if I just ask "what the best 45acp powder" ? I'd not only get pretty much every medium burn rate powder suggested . I get even more questions as to what's best mean to you , are you looking for power factor etc etc .

By narrowing what the definition of best powder meant for the thread . It would narrow down the responses to the one that will directly equate to my wants . I'm in no way trying to be difficult . Seeing how I have little experience with pistol powders I was hoping some one here has that magic powder like Titegroup appeared to be when I first used it .

Quote:
As for you since you are a reloader you might want to try and experiment a little bit with what you want and make your own decision how to get it.
As above may show . I have tried a few things with out the results I was looking for . My point is and I believe as stated above . I don't want to keep buying powders that will never get me what I want . Like Longshot , I loaded several hundred rounds of that stuff before realizing I was not going to get what I want out of it . So then I found HS-6 and although better for this application then Longshot , still not great .

This thread is to at minimum narrow that search down . I think I know about what burn rate I'm looking for but I don't know what types of powders those are in that range . Ball , Flake or what . I'm ok with loading hundreds of rounds If in the end it gets me to the place I'm headed . I really don't have the funds to waist on components that will llikely never work for me .

Some of this may have to do with the fact I'm not a pistol guy per-say . I'll spend a boat load of money and time developing my rifles loads . Pistols not so much .
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Old June 9, 2016, 12:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
First lets start with the bullet/s I'll use the most . 200gr plated RN about 75% of the time . 230gr lead and plated RN 20% of the time and 230gr JHP 5% of the time.
Generally speaking, the lighter the bullet, the faster the propellant required for a clean "balanced" round.

Quote:
Clean burning , Not kinda clean , not clean enough.
Got it

Quote:
I want a powder that every reloader would say oh yeah that's some clean burning powder.
EVERY handloader? That's a tall order. Just sayin'. I'll give you my opinion (forthcoming).

Quote:
Forgiving , Meaning consistent and not to (sic) temperamental.
Generally, the faster the burn, the cleaner the burn, but the more temperamental. So your requirements oppose one-another. Life is a series of trade-offs. Handloading is no different.

Quote:
Velocity is not a big deal but I would like the 230gr JHP's to get up over 900fps
I've done that with HS-6 (barely). But I would not consider HS-6 "clean burning." It is indeed clean at 230gn-900 f/s; but as you turn it down, it'll soot up on you. Other propellants will hit the 900 (at least in your 5" Springfield), but HS-6 is the only one I've chosen to push that hard. And I chose HS-6 for the application because it is a forgiving/predictable propellant i.e. the opposite of temperamental.

Quote:
Meters really well . Not pretty good but GREAT!
TiteGroup does this. But I wouldn't use it to push a 230 to 900.

Quote:
Titegroup
WSF
HS-6
CFE-pistol
Auto comp
Longshot
Of the propellants you mention, I only have/use TG and HS-6. So I'm just giving you the information I know. Without being snide (there's already plenty of "snide" in this thread), with 32 years of loading experience under my belt, I rather doubt there's a single propellant that fits the bill.

TiteGroup meters great. And it's generally clean. But it is temperamental. And its burn rate is too fast to drive 230's to the velocity you mentioned. It'll run great under your plated 200's - pretty much ideal, actually. It'll push your 230 plated RNs nicely too - but velocities will be modest. But I would discourage its use under your 230 lead bullets - this because it runs so hot, it seems to melt lead and deposit it in the barrel; at least, with every barrel I've tried running lead/TG.

HS-6 - being an intermediate speed propellant - will get your 230 JHP's moving right along. I have chrono data to prove that HS-6 can drive a 230 (Hornady XTP) to over 900 f/s (that's just my experience; for safety, conduct your own workups). But that is absolute max. HS-6 runs cool, and that is a good characteristic for lead. And it may work well for your 230 lead RN's. But you'll have to turn them up to run clean. You talk about clean burning. Okay. Well, all propellants are clean when they're loaded to proper pressure levels for that given propellant. Propellants run sooty when they're not loaded properly - period. The question boils down to one's definition of "clean." To me, it means that a propellant will run clean over a broad range of charge levels for a given caliber/bullet weight. In that context, HS-6 is not a "clean" propellant.

So that's what I have. Hope it was somewhat helpful (and respectful).
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Old June 9, 2016, 12:38 PM   #20
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Another vote for VV N340. It does an excellent job with 45acp. and very clean.
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Old June 9, 2016, 12:54 PM   #21
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Nick :

Thanks that's the type of replies I'm hoping for . I was thinking of switching to 185gr bullets with the Titegroup ??? You feel maybe the 200gr bullets are better ?? You need not stick to the powders I have . Right now I see we have Universal and N340 being suggested . I was considering N320 . I'll likely be buying something new on the 9th of July

Anyone have opinions or use these powders for the purposes outlined above ?
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Old June 9, 2016, 01:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
NO ! scorched or sooty cases , NONE !!!!
Run your tumbler a few minutes longer.

I shoot a lot of 45's, probably 95% with Win 231.

Never noticed it being dirty or sooty, but I must admit that I've never really paid that much attention to fired cases. They all go into the tumbler together (mine and whatever other people have left on the range) and they all come out shiny like new.

The fact that N340 is $32.84/lb and Win 231 is $19.88/lb at MidSouth is enough to keep me away from the N340.

If you're really stuck on clean and pretty fired cases, find out what Federal uses in their small-primer 45 ACP. Luckily that stuff looks like a mirror on the inside, makes it easy to pick it out from the large-primer cases!
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Old June 9, 2016, 01:35 PM   #23
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I've found that Bullseye burns very clean with plated/jacketed/coated in .45 auto. I think it's 'dirty' reputation came from use with lead bullets.
Meters perfectly for me in my rotary measure. Works with the lightest loads all the way up to full power 230 loads. It's all I use now.

Clays and N310 are probably the cleanest shooting powder out there, both are superb target powders, but they are not a good choice for full power 230 ammo.

VV N320 might be the powder you're looking for, but I've never found it locally, so I've never tried it.

Scorched cases? Probably just soot from low temps/low pressure.
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Old June 9, 2016, 01:40 PM   #24
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Dirty Powder

IMO powders are not "dirty" or "clean". No powder is always dirty or always clean. It is a fallacy to think such exists.

Powder burning cleanliness is not determined by the POWDER. It is determined by the LOAD you are using for that powder, and whether, or not, you are in the intended pressure range for that powder.

If you use too slow a powder you can see unburnt particles down the barrel after you shoot.

If you want the cleanest possible powder burn: use a fast powder at maximum load. Consulting Alliant 45 Auto data (not +P) that would be this:
230-gr FMJ BE-86 Fed. 150 Federal 1.265 7.1 943
If that is not clean and fast enough for you, good luck with the farting unicorn.
I have not used BE-86 yet, but always found Bullseye to burn cleanly, but then I do NOT shot cast lead bullets, ever. If you think Bullseye is dirty and you are shooting lead, try plated. I bet they run a LOT "cleaner". That means the "dirty" was lead residue.
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Old June 9, 2016, 01:48 PM   #25
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Never noticed it being dirty or sooty, but I must admit that I've never really paid that much attention to fired cases. They all go into the tumbler together
Although I use the term sooty burnt "cases" . The result of that happening is causing the same effect to happen in your chamber and gun as a whole . If you're getting blow back on your cases . You're getting blow back everywhere .
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