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Old December 17, 2009, 07:23 PM   #1
SpookBoy
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Need id/info on 2 older revolvers

I was recently given 2 revolvers by an older friend. I need to know approx value and where to find parts and any info you have about, year of manuf, etc,etc. heres the pics and specs......


First is a I believe a Belgium or French, 7.65(32) cal,hammerlesss, folding trigger. i believe i need a mainspring , a front stop pin and a saftey latch.
Sn# is F.A. 50XX BBL is in 85%+ condition, finish id say about 60%, Markings are a flaming bomb with an R inside, A shield with an x and a capital N with a line over top on the left side of the gun. The only marking on the right side is what appears to be a small person or dutchman on it below the cylinder near front end.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old December 17, 2009, 07:46 PM   #2
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The other is an IVER JOHNSON

BBL MARKED
{ IVER JOHNSON arms and cycle works FITCHBURG MASS U.S.A.
the next line reads - APR 19,86 FEB 15,87 may 10,87 DEC 26,93}

This one in not in nearly as good a shape an the other one

The trigger only works sometimes ,the hammer goes back then strikes with force, bit the cylinder moves completely freely What should i do with this one????

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old December 18, 2009, 08:18 AM   #3
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Both blackpowder revolvers date from just prior to 1900, one from Europe & the other from America.

Both are examples of the cheap pocket pistols made at the time to fill the pockets of the everyday working stiffs.

There's zero parts available for the Belgian gun, and only a scant few for the IJ - but if they were mine, I wouldn't fix them, lest someone try to fire one and harm themselves.

Why not just clean them both up to preserve them, and maybe mount them together in a shadow box denoting the display as showing differing international visions of the same goal ?

.
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Old December 18, 2009, 09:09 AM   #4
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The top revolver seems to have the Spanish proof marks used in Eibar from dec 1929 (shield with X for eibar, bomb with R for revolver). The N with tilde indicates 1943.
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Last edited by mapsjanhere; December 18, 2009 at 09:21 AM.
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Old December 19, 2009, 12:37 AM   #5
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Mapsjanhere is right, the "Belgian" gun is Spanish, but I have to wonder about the date. I find it hard to believe anyone was making guns like that in 1943. 1890 or 1900 would be more like it.

The other is an Iver Johnson; it appears to be a First Model Safety Automatic* Hammer Revolver. If so, the caliber is .38 S&W.

Quite honestly, neither (IMHO) is worth fixing up. The IJ if functional and in good shape might bring $75; as it is, I doubt there would be any legitimate sale except to a buyback program. The Spanish revolver is an example of a revolver made to fire an auto pistol cartridge and is an interesting novelty, but again is worth very little. The shadow box seems like a good idea.

*Automatic meaning automatic cartridge extraction when the gun was opened; guns like the S&W and Colt swing cylinders were described as manual ejectors or hand ejectors.

Jim
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:04 AM   #6
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No, no ejector on ij,just open it and close it.Both are 32, whats the spanish one worth?
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:22 AM   #7
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and no, i wouldnt chance shooting either! more interested in just sellin em, or trading them for something i can SHOOT! you know how us younguns is
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:55 AM   #8
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Jim, while I agree on the style of weapon being outdated for the date, the Spanish changed their proofing system in 1929, and it's definitely the modern stamp series. N, being the 14 letter, makes sense for 1943 too.
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Old December 19, 2009, 10:18 AM   #9
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Can anyone tell me the year of manuf by the sn???
or who the maunf was?
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Last edited by SpookBoy; December 19, 2009 at 10:27 AM. Reason: forgot info
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Old December 19, 2009, 01:46 PM   #10
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I think the first one is from france or belgium,google "Velo dog".Had a few of them in the past,interesting enough in the variety,at the time dirt cheap to purchase,drawback hard to find ammo.
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Old December 19, 2009, 08:34 PM   #11
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There is a tendency to call any European revolver of that type a "velo-dog" because many such revolvers were chambered for that cartridge. But the OP said the gun is in .32 ACP and the cylinder is much too short for the 5.6 Velo-Dog*.

Hi, spookboy,

There are no production records of those guns in existence, if indeed there ever were. They sold in Europe for the equivalent of a couple of dollars in a time when there were few gun laws. The value, as a novelty, would be $50 or less. A Belgian gun would bring a bit more.

*The term "Velo-dog" comes from a combination of the words "velocipede" (an early word for bicycle) and "dog." When bicycles were a new fad, bicyclists were often attacked by dogs. They found that the normal European revolver cartridges of the day were not powerful enough to dispatch a large dog, so the ammunition makers developed a .22 cartridge with an extra long case (longer than the .22 WMR) and (hopefully) enough power to deal with a dog at point blank range.

Jim
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Old December 20, 2009, 11:57 AM   #12
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It was my understanding that simply because a gun bears proofs from a certain country and year does not necessarily mean that it was made at that time.

Isn't it true that certain countries' laws required imported guns to be proofed before they could be commercially sold within those countries' borders? If so, couldn't the proofs have been applied long after the gun's date of manufacture? (Of course, one would expect to see the original country of manufacture's proofs on the gun somewhere as well.)

SpookBoy, the first revolver bears a very strong resemblance to a revolver manufactured in Belgium by Grimard Edgard. If you can access it, check the rear face of the cylinder for any markings and describe in detail what you find. I strongly suspect that you will find Belgian proofs on the gun if you look hard enough. Obviously it was sold in Spain at some point but I cannot believe that that is where it was made, nor, as others have pointed out, is it likely that it was manufactured as late as the '40s.
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Old December 20, 2009, 03:45 PM   #13
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Most countries have different proof marks for imported guns, in the Spanish case that would be bomb with E, in addition to the bomb with R mark.
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Old December 20, 2009, 04:16 PM   #14
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The Spanish revolver is also missing its safety; there would have originally been a rotating lever in the hole on the left side of the frame, selecting between "F" (Feu", or "fire") and "S" ("Surete" or "safe").
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Old December 21, 2009, 09:58 AM   #15
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Chamber/cylinder & exact origin not withstanding, the design of the upper revolver, with the cylinder low & forward of the grip w/folding trigger was most certainly derived from the original velo-dog revolvers, and carried through to the "Apache" (L'Pache) French gangsta guns of yesteryear.

Certainly interesting, IMO - but not worth a whole lot of $$.

.
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:22 AM   #16
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the cylinder has a 3 and a 6 on it, thats all besides what i've described. these are for sale, any decent offer gets one or both
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Old December 22, 2009, 11:23 AM   #17
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and im pretty sure it is a GRIMMARD EDGARD
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Old December 23, 2009, 03:12 AM   #18
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The Iver Johnsons have always interested me. I've always liked the look and history of them, and after going through more than a few bins worth of "parts IJ" and a couple of tables worth or "serviceable" pistols at shows.... I'd suggest scrapping those. If you tried to fire anything other than blackpowder S&W shorts in the IJ, chances are high it's just es'plode and a box or two of those rounds will run you as much as the gun generally costs. I'd advise you to (at best) clean 'em up with a little elbow grease, mark 'em as "unfireable" and lock 'em away. Either that or send me the IJ, I'll give it a good, loving home where it'll be cared for and loved in a manner most befitting a "past it's prime gun."

Forget about resale value, too. By the time you've spent the money and time on fixing up and cleaning up these two guns, you'll probably spend more on the work and parts than you'll make selling 'em, too.

Also, the cylinder moving freely on the IJ indicates either needing a new trigger or a new arm for the gun. Both of which you should be able to get from numrich. But I've never checked for your model.
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Old December 23, 2009, 09:01 AM   #19
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ill sell it to you if you want to give it a "loving home" its x-mas so 50$
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Old December 23, 2009, 09:03 AM   #20
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and the trigger will move the hammer back and then it strikes pretty hard. The hammer wont stay back if i try to cock it.
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Old December 23, 2009, 01:58 PM   #21
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Need's a new trigger or arm and SA sear and spring. Tempting as that is, I've gotta save that money for presents.
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Old December 23, 2009, 06:07 PM   #22
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new price $110 for BOTH shipped to your door!!!
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