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Old August 17, 2005, 08:05 PM   #26
tshadow6
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I would have got out of dodge.
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Old August 17, 2005, 08:08 PM   #27
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I'm well aware that the 15 rds that I carry, and my proven levels of performance would result in at least 5-6 of them getting shot.
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Old August 17, 2005, 08:11 PM   #28
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I'll agree with everyone else that you were right in staying out of the fight. In the same position, I would have liked to get my hands on my weapon in the process of moving away from the area just in the event that the fight moved my way. Once armed, shooting individuals pursued you, if they did, you would likely be justified in bringing your gun into play. Once armed criminals are after you, as the old saying goes, "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
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Old August 17, 2005, 08:29 PM   #29
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now i think i did the right thing in this situation, but if shots had started flying around the parking lot would i have been justified in dropping him? what would you do in this situation if the bullets had started to fly?
Shots DID fly around the parking lot. You said he fired 3 shots into the air.

Those shots came down somewhere. Someone could have been killed by them.

I think you did sorta the right thing. Number one, to me, would have been to let them do their thing and GET MYSELF SAFE. Do you owe the guy who had the gun put to his chest anything? How do you know that the reason for the altercation is not that he raped and disfigured the sister of the shooter? Really want to save his life at the possible cost of your life or your freedom, or thousands of dollars you'd have to pay a lawyer? In my book, not worth it. I mean why? So you could feel like a Rambo?

My feeling is the best course of action in this scenario is to GET SAFE, which means put distance between you and them, and then notify the police of what's going on. You are not responsible for saving the gang banger's gang banger victim, or anyone else in that lot, for that matter. And the LAW certainly would not cut you slack for going in there guns-a'blazin'.

Nope, you'd be jailed.

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Old August 17, 2005, 09:04 PM   #30
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I'd be ducking and getting out of Dodge.
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Old August 17, 2005, 10:02 PM   #31
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I wouldn't even go to my car if I had to come near that situation to do so. I would go back in the store and call the police.

If I felt heroic, I would get the woman and child down, behind the cover of a car, and keep my hand on the butt of my revolver. Intervening in that situation is not wise for the reasons already mentioned.

I'm all for gang-bangers wasting each other, but I wish they'd leave civilized areas to do so. Perhaps our government could use some our tax money to build an arena.
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Old August 17, 2005, 10:51 PM   #32
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Obviously "Wannabe Ganstas"...my experience with Thugs is that if they are Hard, they WILL have each others back and not deserted, there would have been multiple weapons at the ready (though not visible) and very well likely drawn at the first *pop*. The guys who tackled the shooter would most likely have been shot by his crew...then they would have bugged the hell outta there.
I think that you made a prudent choice. I personally would have started to get the nearest people too me outta there, then pull out the cellular. Screw the gun and the bullets...not knowing the situation and perhaps the folks actually being Thug's, you very well may have escalated the situation, then YOU would be responsible for all kinds of doo-doo, if anything ensued...if you would have tried to get to your gun and intervene. You may be combat trained...or not, if not, then I would not want to run the risk of getting in a gunfight against multiple attackers with unknown firepower, possibly getting yourself and other innocents shot and killed due to the number of lead bullets flying through the air. If you are combat trained, you had better make dammm sure that you understand the situation CLEARLY...cuz if it goes sideways...you are going to be in some really, really deep doo-doo!!!
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Old August 18, 2005, 12:13 AM   #33
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You wouldn't worry about that if you had my proven level of bulletproofness!

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Old August 18, 2005, 08:53 AM   #34
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doesn't mean it can't be done, dude. Maybe you think punks are suicidal, but I've got about 10,000 x as much experience with them as you do, and I'm telling you that hitting "just' 3 of them would send the rest fleeing, and that can be accomplished in 1 second flat, no problem, to include the ccw draw. 1 second, it will be a complete surprise, and thus, you'll have stationary, frontal targets.
Roughly 40 ft away in a crowded parking lot. Sure.
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Old August 18, 2005, 10:03 AM   #35
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I'm curious, Swath - your credentials for such a feat with real firearms against so many opponents are?

You also assume that your hits are instantly incapacitating? How about dat!
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Old August 18, 2005, 01:24 PM   #36
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Oh and by the way, carrying a gun in the parking lot of wal mart is also illegal. They have issued statements and signs prhohibiting the carry of firearms anywhere on their property, unless it's being carried in the trunk. So as soon as you take that gun out you're breaking the law.

Police officers don't even have the right to shoot someone unless the criminal aims the gun at them, or is actually shooting in the parking lot. So if you think you can just shoot someone because they have a gun you're incredibly naive and ignorant. Half the people here seem to think that the ccw permit gives them more rights than the average citizen, or somehow makes them security guards.
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Old August 18, 2005, 01:26 PM   #37
Berettafan21
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Here in Utah you would have been within the law to shoot him. However would I recomend it in this situation proable not.
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Old August 18, 2005, 01:38 PM   #38
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Pt111gr, you are stating law's and regulations that don't exist.

Those postings on walmart property are not laws. And I personally have not seen these posters/signs. Walmart sells guns. Think about it....

And about shooting at someone, youre totally wrong. Before purging wrong information out think about what youre typing, ask a LEO or lawyer or look it up.

You can fire on ANYone (In Florida, and most of the US) armed or not that threatens you in a way that you feel that you have no other options but to fire, although escape should always be your first option if youre not in your house/car/boat or workplace.

Last edited by BerettaCougar; August 18, 2005 at 02:36 PM.
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Old August 18, 2005, 01:52 PM   #39
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and further more, your negative comments about people here is not appreciated, You have less than 10 posts and you are already knocking regulars? Not a good way to start.

Oh and by the way, just a quick bit of information, NO we do not think we are guards, as you can tell the majority of the thread stated they will walk away and/or avoid conflict with the person holding the gun.
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Old August 18, 2005, 02:35 PM   #40
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Oh and by the way, carrying a gun in the parking lot of wal mart is also illegal. They have issued statements and signs prhohibiting the carry of firearms anywhere on their property, unless it's being carried in the trunk. So as soon as you take that gun out you're breaking the law.
I believe you are wrong about that. State the law that bans carry in Wal-Mart. Be sure and make sure it's a federal law so it will cover every state.

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Police officers don't even have the right to shoot someone unless the criminal aims the gun at them, or is actually shooting in the parking lot.
I believe you are wrong here as well. Many LEOs have shot, injured or killed suspects who had no gun, and no charges were filed. Again, please state the law you are referencing. A cut and paste or a hyperlink will do nicely.

Have fun searching!
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Old August 18, 2005, 03:06 PM   #41
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pt111gr,

I never stated that I would shoot anyone in the head. All I said is that, depending on his state's law, he could very well be able to legally defend another persons life if it was threatened. I believe there are many states which adhere to that.

If you and a friend were out and a stranger approached, pulled a gun and shot your friend, are you saying you would not have the right to draw a gun? You should never draw your weapon unless prepared to use it and, according to your logic, you can not use it as the shooter did not shoot at you....just your friend.

Your logic is flawed and I would bet you do not know your own state's CCW laws, much less everyone elses. Do not paint with to broad of a brush, as you'll likely just make a big mess.

You do have a concealed permit by the way, don't you?
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Old August 18, 2005, 03:59 PM   #42
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pt,

Where do you get this stuff? What state are you from - the state of confusion?

NY it is legal to use deadly force to protect yourself OR A THIRD PERSON...(whether it is SMART or not is another issue)

s35.30

" and he may use deadly physical force for such purpose when he reasonably believes such to be necessary to:

(a) Defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force"

And what crap is that about Walmart?? They are suddenly a "no carry" zone? Says WHO??
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Old August 18, 2005, 04:00 PM   #43
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Hypothetically

Whose to say the one with the gun pointed at him just didn't try and molest or kidnap a little girl in the neighborhood? Maybe the 20 guys chased him to the parking lot from the little girls house? Whose to say is the process, the bad guy beat the hell out of her, and emotions are high? You have to think about stuff like this. I am not supporting vigalantees, but what if the guy with the gun, took it off of the perp. What if the guy with the gun is the neighborhood "good guy" and is being faced with the above situation. Ask your self how might you handle that situation, if you found yourself in it?
Call the professionals, I've seen Reno 911, it should be a very good show.
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Old August 18, 2005, 04:25 PM   #44
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Oh and by the way, carrying a gun in the parking lot of wal mart is also illegal. They have issued statements and signs prohibiting the carry of firearms anywhere on their property, unless it's being carried in the trunk. So as soon as you take that gun out you're breaking the law.
No, Hank you once again are wrong.
Not only do the notice carry no legal weight in some states, Fla for example, many here have already contacted Wal-Mart corporate and have been told that it is not corporate policy to ban legally carried guns in their stores
Use the search feature

Quote:
Police officers don't even have the right to shoot someone unless the criminal aims the gun at them, or is actually shooting in the parking lot. So if you think you can just shoot someone because they have a gun you're incredibly naive and ignorant. .
Once again your tolerance of your own ignorance shines through.
Cops do not have to have a gun pointed at them to shoot You could ask Amado Diallo about that but he's dead cause cops shot him for getting his wallet, maybe you could track down Lon Horiuchi and ask what are the rules about shooting unarmed citizens.
And did you miss the part in the orginal post where the guy was shooting in the parking lot?
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Half the people here seem to think that the ccw permit gives them more rights than the average citizen, or somehow makes them security guards
It has already been stated that any citizen has the right to stop a crime in progress, but true to Hank protocol you still don't bother to read the comments or answer questions put to you.
And by the way armed security guards don't carry concealed and their carry privileges only extend to on duty times and locations and most security guards are unarmed.
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Old August 18, 2005, 04:30 PM   #45
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What if the guy with the gun is the neighborhood "good guy" and is being faced with the above situation. Ask your self how might you handle that situation, if you found yourself in it?
The neighborhood good guy should not be shooting in the air.

Duck and cover call the cops, be a good (live) witness.
Protect innocents if it's a reasonable goal
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Old August 18, 2005, 04:44 PM   #46
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No, Hank you once again are wrong.
You guys know each other joab?
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Old August 18, 2005, 04:50 PM   #47
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A many times banned troll that has gone by Joshua, HanhB and Hanksterhk among other names.

He's a persistant but transparent little guy
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Old August 18, 2005, 06:22 PM   #48
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Saber, no offense, but you're wrong. The only people that have the right to protect total strangers by shooting and killing someone are officers of the law.
In Texas you allowed to use deadly force in defense of yourself or others if you are afraid for your life or thiers.
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Old August 18, 2005, 08:01 PM   #49
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In Texas you allowed to use deadly force in defense of yourself or others if you are afraid for your life or thiers.
The language of common law, which most states have written into their statutes is: deadly force may be used to neutralize the threat of death or serious bodily injury to yourself or another.
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Old August 18, 2005, 08:50 PM   #50
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HH, sounds to me like you did the right thing. I keep reading advice you should have gone inside, but from what I read you got the tag number, gave it to the cops and got the guy taken off the street.

Good job.

Plenty of reasons not to intervene; here's a few:

1.There's really nothing else you could do. With a 1911 cocked, safety off at someone's chest, I wouldn't have shot the gunman. Even if it was pointed at my kid. Too much risk that he'll pull the trigger, intentionally or not.

2. As others said, there were 20 other guys out there. If they all shot back they might hit you.

3. More likely, they would miss a lot and spray bullets at all those innocent bystanders.

4. You didn't have the whole story.

In my opinion, it would not be illegal or immoral to intervene when an innocent person is in danger and you could help them.
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