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Old August 5, 2005, 11:15 PM   #1
Dust_Devil
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Need tactical reload training advice

I'm not new to shooting, but I do want to learn more about proper tactical procedures with both handguns and rifles.

Whether it is for competition or in an actual combative situation, what is the most common way of executing a tactical reload?

Right now, I practice at home with my Glock 23 and Beretta 92FS. The mags on both guns fall pretty freely with no problem.

I am right handed, so I place my extra magazine(s), ammo down, in my left pants pocket or cargo pocket.
I don't have a belt mounbted mag holder and would take advice on what is the best type of mag holder where a person could quickly grab a magazine out of it and quickly place an empty or partial magazine back into it and later retrieve that magazine for later use.

When ready to change magazines, I'll use my left hand to take the magazine out of my left pocket. I'll do this my using my thumb and first 2 fingers. Though I read, some trainers say to place the magazine between the middle and 3rd finger, but I don't see how this helps any.

I then will drop the magazine out of the gun and catch it with the palm and last two fingers of my left hand, while using my first two fingers to push the new magazine into the gun.

Then while holding the gun in my right hand, I use my left hand to place the empty or partial mag into my left side pocket.

My main concern is that I sometimes see myself fumbling around placing or removing the magazine from my pockets using only one hand, so that is why I am wondering what do people like police or SWAT use as far as magazine holders or pockets where magazines can be easily taken out and inserted.
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Old August 6, 2005, 12:55 AM   #2
fastforty
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It sounds like yer doing pretty good already

Kydex magazine carriers are pretty good- they can easily retain the magazine while leaving 1/3 to 1/2 of it exposed & easy to grasp, and they will not collapse making it very easy to stow the magazine removed from the pistol. When using this type of mag carrier, you access the mag with the index finger pointing straight down at the ground, on the outside of the carrier & grasp the top of the magazine between the base of your remaining fingers and the base pad of your thumb (the big meaty muscle on your hand that controls the thumb). As the magazine is drawn out of the carrier, the tip of your index finger should naturally fall against the tip of the top round of ammunition in the magazine. This properly indexes the magazine for low light insertion, varifies that there are in fact rounds in it and that the top round is not out of position waiting to cause a malfunction when inserted into the pistol (if the top round is out of position, it can be pushed back into the feed lips or flicked off easily). As the new mag is brought up to the pistol, the mag release is pressed and the butt of the magazine falling out drops onto the palm of the hand, to the right of the new magazine that is already being grasped. The support hand is rotated so that the old mag slides between and is grasped by the middle & ring fingers and pulled free. This puts the new magazine in perfect alignment to start insertion, and a rotation of the hand in reverse direction slams it home. (Wow, that's a lot harder to write out then it is to do, LOL). After you practice this manuever a few dozen times, 1.5 seconds from "both hands on pistol in firing grip" to completion (both hands on pistol in firing grip again) is proficient.
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Old August 6, 2005, 01:51 AM   #3
Dust_Devil
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Thanks for the advice and tips.

I use the Predator brand Kydex gun holsters. Unlike some leather and nylon holsters that become flimsy and don't keep their shape the hard Kydex material keeps its shape in an open position at all times and I mainly like how they can be adjusted in tension on how tight you want it to hold the gun.

I can see how the Kydex magazine holders would help compared to, say a nylon magazine pouch.
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Old August 8, 2005, 07:16 PM   #4
reguy
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Hi.

What I was taught back in academy for tactical handgun reloading was this:

Well, first of all, we were issued Bianchi Accumold nylon gear....and our double magazine pouches were worn on our weak hand side, mine was facing so that the pouch covers are up. What they taught us can be used on pretty much any standard magazine holder.

BTW...I'm right handed...

Press the ejector button and let your magazine fall. The instant you feel that it's not going to fall, grip the bottom of the magazine with your weak hand thumb and forefinger, and quickly strip it from the gun and let it fall. Don't try to pick it up or save the magazine in either case.

With your weak hand, immediately open one of the magazine pouches. Our magazine pouches carries the magazine upside-down, and the front of the magazines faces towards our gun hand.

Grip the magazine with your hand made out like an "U" shape with your thumb and index finger, the rest of your fingers are curled into the remainder of a fist. It might be a little hard to explain...so bear with me. So your thumb goes a little under the magazine and around the rear, your index finger goes alongside the front, and the side of your middle finger goes alongside the right side of the magazine (as referenced facing up.) The index finger slides into position alongside the front of the magazine as you withdraw it. This way, the magazine is always aligned with your index finger, so there's no question what it's postion is. As your hand goes towards the magazine well, it naturally moves the magazine into place. Slam it home and you're good to go! With practice, you can usually shave time it takes to around 1.5 seconds to do it.

Whew...
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Old August 8, 2005, 11:33 PM   #5
Capt. Charlie
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Quote:
Don't try to pick it up or save the magazine in either case.
+1 Excellent advice! Dump the mag or empties if you've got a wheel gun and forget 'em! Not doing so got at least one CHP trooper killed. During the infamous Newhall incident in 1972, 4 CHP troopers were killed by making mistakes. During a traffic stop and ensuing gunfight, one trooper kicked the empties out of his revolver and placed them in his pocket, The lost time allowed the bad guy to rush him and put two in his head. The trooper had only done as he was trained. The CHP acadamy at the time had this nice, beautifully manicured lawn on their range, and no rookie DARED to dump his brass! The Newhall incident is considered the spark that started officer survival training and critique of incidents. Previously, it was an absolute sin to say that a fallen officer made a mistake. Now we learn from mistakes, and the CHP acadamy no longer has a nicely manicured lawn on their range . Another thing is get in the habit of being able to reload WITHOUT looking at the weapon or mags. Keep your eyes on the situation while you load! Having a gunsmith bevel the magazine well on your pistol is cheap and will really help with a speed load. When it hits the fan, you will do exactly what you trained to do, and bad training equals fatal mistakes.
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Old August 9, 2005, 02:00 AM   #6
HighValleyRanch
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Pardon my ignorance, but i thought a tatical reload is to load a full magazine during a lull in an encounter and to save the partial magazine for later if necessary.
In this senario, it would be necessary to "pick up" or "catch" or "save the partially used magazine.
Of course if the semi auto goes empty and locks back on the slide, then by all means, let the empty magazine drop.
But we were taught tatical reloading as the first case.

We were also taught to forget about the two mags in one hand procedure. Because in a stress situation, it would be easy to fumble and drop one of the two mags. and so given a more gross motor skill procedure this was found to be simply just as fast:

Drop the partial mag, keeping one in the chamber. Catch the(partial mag with the weak support hand. In one smooth move, place the mag in your rear hip pocket, and slide over to pick up the full mag out of the mag pouch. The mag should be already pointing in the right direction, so that when you are pulling the full magazine out of your MAGAZINE POUCH on your left belt side, you can index with the tip of your left index finger to slide it into the mag well without having to look. Round is already chambered, so you only have to tap the mag home after inserting.

Try the two mags in the hand procedure, and the one mag at a time procedure and I think you will find the second at least as fast and more secure than the first.
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Old August 9, 2005, 07:14 AM   #7
reguy
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Saving your magazines

We were trained to strip the magazines from our handguns and not save them. Every department instructor and rangemaster I've had has always taught us that. And they always quoted the Newhall CHP incident too...saying nobody knew what went wrong until they found the empties in their pockets.

To adddress your concern HighValleyRanch, under a position of cover, you could retrieve a partial magazine from the ground. Like you mentioned, were taught to never put it into a magazine pouch, but our trouser pocket. It eliminates confusion because only full magazines go in the pouch.


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Old August 9, 2005, 07:33 AM   #8
ATW525
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Emergency reload is the norm (drop your empty and forget), and the point is to get the gun back into the fight as quickly as possible. I would suggest not dropping the mag from the gun until you've retrieved the fresh mag and are ready to insert, however. The reason for this is that the sound of your magazine hitting pavement is announcing to everybody nearby, including the bad guy, that your reloading. This is the technique you should be practicing at the range, as the emergency reload should be second nature when your gun stops firing.

Tactical reloading, as was mentioned, is done during a lull in the action when there's no immediate threat. The purpose is to top off your gun with a fresh magazine without tossing away whatever bullets are in the current magazine, because you may need them later. Never stick the partially loaded magazine back in the magazine carrier... always tuck it in a pocket... it's quicker and you won't get confused and grab it by accident later on.
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Old August 9, 2005, 04:02 PM   #9
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Lots of great tactical advice, the only thing I would add is that you should always be taking a knee (also using cover/concealment if available) when reloading. I didn't see it in there anywhere-sorry if I missed it.

I put the partially used mags in a cargo pocket/spare pocket during the tactical reload.
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Old August 10, 2005, 08:48 AM   #10
Dust_Devil
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Am I confused what a tactical reload is?
My thoughts of a tactical reload was that it meant to take a partial magazine out of the weapon and reload a new magazine for the purpose of; A. You know that you always have some rounds in the magazine in your weapon. B. You won't be caught with an empty magazine in your weapon, an empty chamber and a locked open slide.

In the heat of a gun battle, a person may get a bit mixed up of how many rounds he fired and is more worried about being shot at than counting to his very last round and then dropping and exchanging the magazine. It would make more sense to me to do a tactical reload when you believe you may have at least a few rounds left. Performing a tactical reload right at the last round would be optimal, but I don't think always possible unless you are that skilled and calm minded while you are being shot at and know that you have exactly one round left in the chamber.
In competition, it may be easier to ahve the mind to do this because the paper targets aren't shooting back at you.

Plus if you are just saying to drop an empty magazine, not pick it up, load an new magazine, put another round in the chamber and continue on, I don't see anything tactical about that. That sounds just like a regular reload.

And in any case, if you drop any magazine on the ground whether intentionally or accidently, I would assume that it would depend on the scenerio if you would have time during a gun battle and it would be safe for you to retrieve the empty/full magazine and put it back in your magazine pouch or pockets for later use.
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Old August 10, 2005, 09:43 AM   #11
ATW525
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Types of reloads:

Emergency Reload - Magazine and chamber is empty, gun at slidelock. Empty magazine is discarded and fresh one is inserted.

Speed Reload - Chamber is loaded, magazine may or may not have rounds in it. Magazine is discarded and fresh one is inserted. Illegal in IDPA matches.

Tactical Reload - Chamber is loaded, magazine may or may not have rounds in it. Fresh magazine is brought up, current magazine is ejected into palm and the new one is inserted. Old magazine is stuffed in pocket.

Reload with Retention - Chamber is loaded, magazine may or may not have rounds in it. Magazine is ejected and sutffed in pocket, and then fresh magazine is retrieved and inserted into weapon. Slower than a Tactical Reload, but easier to perform under stress.

The first two get the gun back into action quickly and are appropriate to use in th middle of a gunfight, the latter two are slower and cumbersome, and are really only suitable if you have time/distance/cover.
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Old August 10, 2005, 06:38 PM   #12
wayneinFL
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How do you know when it's a "lull"?

Personally, I'm not figuring on a reload unless the fight is over or the gun is empty.

If I really felt I was going to need that mag, I'd carry another spare mag.
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Old August 10, 2005, 07:05 PM   #13
ATW525
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Quote:
How do you know when it's a "lull"?
You're not getting shot at
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Old August 14, 2005, 08:15 AM   #14
shaggypiper
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Quote:
Speed Reload - Chamber is loaded, magazine may or may not have rounds in it. Magazine is discarded and fresh one is inserted. Illegal in IDPA matches
This is a bit off subject but that rule kinda chaps my ass. IDPA makes more practical sense as far as situations/weapons restrictions are concerned than IPSC for events that could possibly take place off the range. Now why would they mandate that a speed reload-as defined in the above quote- would be considered illegal when it could be in fact a totally plausible situation one might experience? I don't know, I need some more edificating on this one
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