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Old July 18, 2005, 07:09 PM   #26
Bo Hunter
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How long does it take to catch a fish?
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Old July 18, 2005, 07:17 PM   #27
nug_38
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Time to evaluate situation

If you need to reload, then you should have enough time to analyse the situation. If I remember correctly, each of the officers involved had to reload. I believe in the few seconds it takes to reload the officers could have assessed the situation. I can understand that in armed confrontations with high adrenaline levels, we are bound to be nervous. However when no shots are returned one must re-evaluate the dangers. One is supposed to use sufficient force to stop the attack, not more than necessary. These officers clearly used more force than was needed.

Its all past tense now, but maybe these officers could have benifited from more training in shoot/don't shoot scenarios. Also, using flashlights in low light situations could have been helpfull too. This was a regrettable tragedy.

Last edited by nug_38; July 18, 2005 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Wrong title of post
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Old July 18, 2005, 07:19 PM   #28
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These officers clearly used more force than was needed.
Well, if it was so obvious to you, why do you suppose it wasn't as obvious to the jury? Was it a case of jury nullification? By a NY jury supporting a bunch of white cops who shot an unarmed black guy numerous times? Or was it a bench trial and the judge was corrupt? Or could it be that when all the evidence was in, their actions were not so obviously unreasonable after all given the totality of the circumstances?
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Old July 18, 2005, 08:43 PM   #29
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Second, how many rounds have you fired in defense of yourself or others and what percentage connected? How many were fired while you were backing down a stairway one-handed?
This one time, in band camp...........
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Old July 18, 2005, 09:56 PM   #30
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That they were justified in what they did in the situation is not the only consideration. The factors that put them in that situation (especially since he turned out not to be a bad guy) are important.

I'm sure that the NYPD reviewed it's tactics and training after that. If they didn't, they are worse than I imagined.



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Old July 18, 2005, 10:09 PM   #31
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"He/she may not shoot any better but they are generally better prepared through training and mindset to keep their cool under fire and to take the fight to the bad guy. Most citizens don't have that level of training, and thus even with superior marksmanship skills than police, they may not prevail in the same scenario. As someone said before the police win more gunfights than they lose."

Most cops are not better prepared either through mindset or training. Police win more gunfights than they loose because most Bad Guys are really lousey shots. Cops seldom take the fight to the bad guy as most police shootings are spur of the moment affairs. In standup gunfights, they fare poorly being trained as armed social workers, rather than as expert purveyors of violence. "Get behind the squad and get on the horn, S.W.A.T. will be here soon". The trend is only now changing with some officers being trained in so called "active shooter response".

Cops who are shooters are rare, but they do exist.

The average citizen who is a shooter as opposed to a gun owner, can usually make enough cash hustling the local force to keep himself well supplied with victuals. I spent the late 70's working my way through the bars and resturants of DC/Maryland/Virginia on the proceeds of "shooting lessons" given to all and sundry cops from Baltimore to Richmond
At the time I was LE but the ammo money and range time came on my dime not the deptments.

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Old July 18, 2005, 10:17 PM   #32
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Most cops are not better prepared either through mindset or training. Police win more gunfights than they loose because most Bad Guys are really lousey shots. Cops seldom take the fight to the bad guy as most police shootings are spur of the moment affairs. In standup gunfights, they fare poorly being trained as armed social workers, rather than as expert purveyors of violence. "Get behind the squad and get on the horn, S.W.A.T. will be here soon". The trend is only now changing with some officers being trained in so called "active shooter response".
I GENERALLY trust cops with guns more than I trust the typical gun nut, self-proclaimed shooting instructor, homeowner who anwers the door with a gun in his hand every time, gun shop groupie, person who spends more time rationalizing a "reasonable fear of great bodily harm" when someone looks at him cross-eyed instead of just getting up and leaving, guy who carries a gun because he lives in the suburbs and is afraid of the government taking his guns away, or other various and sundry gun people because I know that most cops deal with jerks every day, and they must learn to control their temper and deal with potentially violent people in a detached, objective way without pulling their guns out at the drop of a hat. They realize that even if they're right, the "bad guy" may not be charged, and while frustrated with this, it isn't something they dwell on. They realize a gun is only one of many tools they have to control a situation.

The reason I trust cops more with guns than I do the other types of people I mentioned, not that some cops aren't also included in those groups, has very little to do with their shooting ability, training or the type of gun they carry. It has more to do with a whole bunch of other intangibles, the least of which is their commando SWAT guy abilities.
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Old July 18, 2005, 10:27 PM   #33
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Frank is a bright guy.

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Old July 18, 2005, 11:25 PM   #34
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Of course perhaps comparing LEO shooting skills with civilian shooting skills is fallacious on my part since the responsibilities of both groups are different. Usually when the balloon goes up your typical cop, even if his situational awareness detects danger, doesn't have the luxury of leaving. They generally have to "run to the danger," or at least hold it at bay until S.W.A.T. arrives.

When I said "take the fight to the enemy" I wasn't really being literal.

Sam D are you going to tell me that a police officer with 40 hours of firearms training (usually, and btw not nearly enough time), supplemented by use of force training and being able to respond appropriately to a violent situation through the use of force continuum, not to mention his/her carrying a gun everyday, and being required to qualify annually, and by the necessity of the job is in condition yellow/orange for at least their shift, is less trained and less prepared to deal with a violent encounter than your average non leo shooter/concealed handgun licensee. The latter of whom, at least in Texas, are required to take just 10 hours of state mandated minimum instruction and pass a background test to acquire said license. The latter licensee by the way is unlikely to pick up a handgun again to shoot it until he has to re-qualify to retain said license 4-5 years later. Similarly you might get 1 out of 100 that seek additional practical training such as a 2 day training class or something longer like Ayoobs LFI 1. It's just not happening. I think it's ludicrous to intimate that your average citizen is better trained to deal with confrontational violence than a police officer. I'm not saying cops are end all be all, but as many of my instructors have said you will default to your lowest level of training. As lowly and pathetic the training is for most police officers it still exceeds what joe citizen shooter is likely to have and that small margin is likely the key to going home at the end of the day vs. going to the morgue.

Now let me reiterate something in case I wasn't clear. I think that in a static, non violent range scenario your average gun enthusiast/nerd will prevail handily over the shooting skills of your average police officer. However once again when you add violence to the mix my money is on the cop. Is it a 100% guarantee? Nope, but it is a safer bet.

Best,
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Old July 18, 2005, 11:58 PM   #35
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. First my observation is that police officers are much better shots than the AVERAGE citizen, they received training on proper techniques
No need to be astonished if you understand that a typical recruit is a college grad with NO firearms experience and that that the academy firearms program is a compromise between reasonable cost vs. good training. That, and the 70% National LE scoring standard isn't condusive to turning out 1st class pistoleros.

TLM225 points out that "police officers are much better shots than the AVERAGE citizen, they received training on proper techniques...."
Well, the average citizen doesn't have any practical experience with a handgun and may have no firearms experience at all. The average citizen who does shoot (handguns) does it voluntarily and is likely, in my opinion to be better than the average Police Officer.

Of course there are LE Officers for whom the issue of saving their life with a handgun is a lot more than just qualifying periodically to keep their job, and consequently, they become very proficient--but that comes with xtra, non mandatory training. There are lot's of LE and Civialians in firearms training and competition that goes beyond anything mandatory.
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Old July 19, 2005, 02:11 AM   #36
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shooting skills of the police

Most cops don't shoot very well because they aren't that interested in guns or shooting and they don't practice. Period.

In my state new recruits get 40 hours of firearms training and shoot 750-1000 rounds in entry level training. The basic training cirriculum that we use is pretty good, but it's BASIC. There is no state standard here on how often officers have to qualify or requalify once they're on the job, although many/most states have some kind of modified PPC that all officers shoot on once a year to measure marksmanship skills. My department shoots handgun quarterly, about 150 rounds per session. That's about enough to keep officer's skills at the same level they graduated recruit school with, in most cases. We don't have the time or the money or the staffing to do much more firearms training than that.

I've got about 3 cops (out of 40) that always have trouble qualifying. They're all smaller females with limited grip strength, limited upper body strength and small hands. Going to a weapons platform with a thinner grip and a shorter reach to the trigger helps somewhat, but they still struggle. I had to do coaching and requal on a couple of these individuals two weeks ago. I think these women came to the range hoping that I could coach them and give them the "secret" that would magically transform them into competent shooters. Well, I did. As we all know, the secret is PRACTICE. I told them to buy 50 or 100 rounds of .40 practice ammo every payday and go shoot. I gave them a list of simple drills to do. I promised that if they followed that program, when our next session of inservice training starts in September, they would qualify with no problem.

Of course, I did some remedial instruction with these same individuals last summer and again this last spring, and told them the EXACT same thing and gave them the EXACT set of practice drills to shoot, and they didn't follow through on it. Not that I was surprised or anything . . .

I've been a cop since 1980 and a firearms instructor since 1982, and I shoot occassionally in PPC, IPSC and IDPA (usually about 4 matches a year).( I'm a "marksman" in PPC, upper C class in IPSC in "production" class and high edge of "sharpshooter" in stock service pistol in IDPA. So, competent but not outstanding or exceptional or anything.)(I personally shoot about 250 rounds a month in practice with my primary duty gun.) All of my non-police competitive shooting friends expend a LOT more ammunition in practice and when shooting in matches than any cop I know, other than myself and members of the local tac team. Of course they're better -- they have a recreational interest in shooting and they PRACTICE. And when they practice, it just isn't some aimless expenditure of ammo, they have drills they shoot to develop specific skills.

There are a lot of cops who have a mild interest in shooting and go out and practice once in a while. There are many others who at least go shoot in practice a little bit before they have their next qualification, so they fire a better score. The majority of cops just sort of bumble along and get by. And many who do practice don't get full value out of it because they don't have any plan to what they're practicing. At the least, keep shooting the mandated qualification course until you can consistently get a high score under all circumstances. Just following that course will give some kind of structure to your practice routine.

Of course, marksmanship skill isn't the only issue to survival. Tactics and situational awareness are citical.

And shooting isn't the only skill that cops need. Once skill I find sadly lacking is writing skills. The work product of the police officer is a written report (in that way they're just like a newspaper reporter). I find a lot of cops (MANY on my department) who have awful writing skills and they're always getting reports rejected by the supervisors or by the DA's office. At least where I work, they need to implement MUCH higher standards on reading comprehension and writing skills for new employees, to avoid these problems.

And the cops need to be able to be proficient in emergency vehicle operation, and defensive tactics, and elementry interrogation and investigation and keep up on changes in the law & procedure and maintain an acceptable level of physical fitness and . . . so marksmanship isn't the ONLY skill they need nor the only thing the PD needs to train on. But, to be a professional, you need to be able to perform competently on ALL that stuff, and a police officer's level of marksmanship skill and gunhandling is one way to evaluate their personal professionalism and commitment to the job.

The good cops will make the effort to be competent on all those skills, even if they don't have a particular personal interest in some of them.
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Old July 19, 2005, 03:46 AM   #37
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hum....

some cops are probably good shots and others suck. I am sure that you will meet both.
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Old July 19, 2005, 08:51 AM   #38
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LEO's are no better or no worse than 99% of the civilians I see at the range. I used to shoot with a few who were into the GSSF match's and they were very, very fast and accurate.
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Old July 20, 2005, 07:52 AM   #39
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Most law enforcement officers carry a gun because it comes with the job, not because they like to shoot. A fair amount of those who don't really care about shooting learn to shoot well and never have a problem, but there are always those few who come out and always slip by with barely passing scores.
Well said and true. However, many forget that shooting for police qualification is MUCH different than shooting for pleasure at the range. Very good (civilian) shooters would do poorly when placed into a stressed, timed qualification course. So, I'd say most cops are average to fair shooters with a few poor ones thrown into the mix. But, others are mean, fast and accurate at any distance.
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Old July 20, 2005, 10:43 AM   #40
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D.S.Brown,
That's why I qualified it to the average SHOOTER, not the average OWNER.
And the quality of police training leaves a lot to be desierd. It really is not that intense or in depth, it is more akin to exposure.


Let me digress for a moment.
So long as our police departments are used as armed social workers and not as policeman, it will be that way. Very little time is spent actively looking for criminals and lots is spent on bureaucracy, enforcement of feelgood and revenue enhancing laws. In the "old days' our cops were much more in touch with people, not employed as a deterrent force and in many cases actually shot the hell out of criminals.
That's why you can name gunfighting officers of the 30's-50's and none from today. Used to be that the cop who was a shooter, was a killer of criminals, and people knew who they were. Not that way today. Different approach to keeping the peace. Rough towns actually used to compete for the services of a shooting cop. Paid a bonus for those who demonstrated real proficiency. You will never see a modern department, actively recruiting experienced crook killers. Lawyers and judges would be messing their britches or go out of criminal practice and into torts real fast.

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Old July 20, 2005, 11:52 AM   #41
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SamD,

I actually agree with 99.9% of evertyhing that you are saying. However what I'm saying is that police officers even with that crappy little bit of "exposure" are better suited to deal with a violent encounter than your average civilian without ANY exposure. I'm not saying it is overwhelming but I think it is enough that yes, once again given equal circumstances, I'll bet on the police officer to prevail. Again it's a safer bet though not a guaranteed one.

One thing that I failed to mention but just remembered was a pole done with criminals. The question was posed to them as to whom they would rather face in an armed confrontation. They overwhelmingly chose the police. I think because they perceived police to have greater constraints in the use of deadly force, whereas civilians were not viewed as having to operate within those same constraints, and thus had less inhibition of killing said criminal. Food for thought.

I wholeheartedly agree that police departments generally don't train "gunfighters" any more, nor do they actively seek their services. You and I may not like it, (I don't), but the times they have a changed since the days of the likes of Bill Jordan.

Best,
Dave
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Old July 20, 2005, 02:19 PM   #42
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I was at the range yesterday, 2 lanes down from a LEO with his service weapon, looked like a Glock to me as I glanced down the line. This guy had shoot-n-see targets pasted on a piece of cardboard WAY down range and was blowing the center out of the targets over and over and over. This cop was one great shot. Was my only experience shooting with a LEO at the range with me. I felt humbled.
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Old July 20, 2005, 03:07 PM   #43
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I've seen cops who shot better than I could dream to shoot. I've seen cops who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from inside the barn.

Like anything else, ability and training combine to, hopefully, produce good results. And I've seen plenty of civilians who have far more training than 90% of cops.

By the way, most of the cops I've trained with had to pay for their own training. They also tended to be the best shots. I think that says a lot for the individual officer. And it also eliminates one of the myths about "cops being the best shooters." They aren't. The best shooters are those who are dedicated to learning how to most effectively use the tool they have chosen for defense of themselves and others. It just so happens that a lot of them happen to be cops.
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Old July 20, 2005, 03:47 PM   #44
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Anybody think they could shoot like this off the range:

Quote:
Police: Bar Owner Kills Two Robbers With Single Shot
Wayne County Prosecutor To Review Alleged Robbery, Shooting

POSTED: 8:03 p.m. EST November 3, 2003
UPDATED: 8:09 p.m. EST November 3, 2003

Two suspected robbers are dead after a former police officer and owner of a Detroit bar fired a single shot, Local 4 reported.
Video

The robbery and shooting happened early Sunday or late Saturday at Adela's place on the city's southwest side.

Police say the 49-year-old woman who owned the restaurant -- a retired Detroit cop who was a former member of Mayor Coleman Young's security team -- tried to hold the suspects in the parking lot until police arrived. But when the two men attempted to speed away, and nearly ran over one of her employees, she fired a single shot that apparently struck both men, according to police.

"We've had some robberies in that area. We have some evidence now that may indicate that someone was robbed there and assaulted there. There attempted to be another assault against one of the employees, before the owner of this establishment fired one shot in an attempt to stop a fleeing felon," said Detroit police Inspector Marilyn Hall-Beard.

The two men -- Dorian Gordillo, 22, and Rosalio Becera, 33 -- were later found dead from a bullet wound in a car parked on the Interstate 75 service drive, according to police.

One of the men was reportedly still holding a beer in his hand.

Family members of Gordillo and Becera were initially confused over their deaths, Local 4 reported.

"He was a very good guy. He would never look for trouble. I don't understand what happened. I hope we can find some answers," said Barbara Gordillo, the sister-in-law of one of the victims.

Officers who had responded to the incident at the bar wrote down the description of the car that left the scene and later made a match with the vehicle in which Gordillo and Becera were found dead, Local 4 reported.

While the shooting appeared to be justified, the Wayne County prosecutor was expected to review the case to determine if the bar owner would face charges.
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Old July 20, 2005, 04:09 PM   #45
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Over penetration issues??

I wonder if that was a case of overpenetration? Or was it a ricochet? What caliber gun was used?

I have never been in a situation like that, so I don't know if I could have done that cold.
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Old July 20, 2005, 04:29 PM   #46
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Overpenetration???? She got both of them with one shot and the round stopped in the second guy...I would say it was "just right penetration"...It was a .38 Smith, carried Mexican style (no pun intended). Don't know what kind of round.

Quote:
The bullet entered the left side of Gordillo's neck, just below his ear, according to the Wayne County medical examiner. It punctured his throat, exited the right side of his jaw and slammed into the left side of Becerra-Santoyo's chest, near the nipple.

The wounded Gordillo kept driving. He missed Cuevo by 2 feet as he sped through the gate, which had closed only halfway.
Why do they have to say "slammed"?? I would have said "penetrated"......
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Old July 20, 2005, 04:37 PM   #47
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How about you other range guys? Ever make a shot like that? How about this one: A police officer and her partner stopped a cab with a passenger they thought might have been involved in a robbery. As I recall, the police officer who did the shooting wasn't great at the range. The bad guy shot her partner through the throat and killed him. He then shot her below the vest and she went down. As he was running down the street, she dropped him with one shot to the back of the head from her Model 10 Smith from 15-20 yards away .

Anyone ever make a shot like that? These are just two cops I know. Cops make those kinds of shots every day across the country. How many range jockeys do?

How about this one. I knew this officer too:

Quote:
Redford man convicted of murdering Detroit police officer


By David Shepardson / The Detroit News

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DETROIT -- A 23-year-old man was convicted Friday in the Feb. 12 stabbing death of Detroit Police Officer Mike Scanlon after a traffic stop.
A jury deliberated about five hours over two days before convicting Brian Joseph Bourne of second degree murder and the felony murder of a police officer after a six-day trial in front of Judge Prentis Edwards, a court clerk said Friday.
Scanlon, 35, a father of two, was stabbed 10 times after a scuffle following a traffic stop in Redford Township.
Bourne broke free while Scanlon was frisking him, police said. Scanlon caught up to Bourne in a back yard, and a struggle ensued in which Bourne was shot in the stomach.
Bourne denied stabbing Scanlon. He told the jury Thursday that two friends stabbed the officer.
Bourne has faced numerous run-ins with the law.
In 1991, at age 11, Bourne was found guilty of first-degree criminal sexual conduct and committed to a youth home, juvenile court records show. He spent time in three juvenile facilities before his release in April 1999 to his grandparents.
Bourne had a series of other criminal scrapes involving driving and drugs.
Bourne faces mandatory life in prison when he is sentenced on Oct. 15 by Edwards.
Anyone ever pull a shot like this off? Ever practice firing while being stabbed in the throat 9 or 10 times?

Another oldie but goodie: Ever practice at the range shooting someone while you're undressing? Or is it usually shooting someone else while THEY'RE undressing!!

Quote:
Off-duty officer kills suspected carjacker

Detroit patrolman hurt in exchange of gunfire; second suspect arrested

By David G. Grant / The Detroit News

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DETROIT --- An off-duty Detroit Police officer shot and killed a suspected carjacker early Wednesday morning during an exchange of gunfire in which the officer also was seriously wounded.

The officer, whom police declined to identify, was shot in the back, foot and thigh and he is listed in good condition at Grace/Sinai Hospital in Detroit.

Investigators said the shooting happened about 12:10 a.m., minutes after the officer and a friend had left the B.M.G. bar on Burt Road, got into the officer's car and drove a short distance down the street. In the 8800 block of Burt Road, just north of Joy, the officer stopped his vehicle.

"The officer stopped his car to change a CD when two men in a car drove up alongside them," said Cmdr. Craig Schwartz, head of the Major Crimes Division.

Schwartz said the passenger in the suspect's car jumped out, pointed a gun at the officer, who is assigned to the 10th (Livernois) Precinct, and his friend and told both men to get out and to take their clothes off.

While the officer and his friend were disrobing, the gunman was distracted and the officer pulled out his pistol and fired several shots at the gunmen, Schwartz said.

Both men exchanged gunfire and the officer was hit three times. The gunman, who has not been identified, died in Grace/Sinai Hospital. The officer's friend was not injured.

The gunman's accomplice, a 22-year-old Center Line man who was driving the car, sped away but was arrested later when the car he was driving was spotted by police in the area.
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Old July 20, 2005, 04:45 PM   #48
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One of my favorites: Anyone ever shoot all three guys who robbed you after being shot?

Quote:
Robbed ex-cop kills suspect

In critical condition, he wounds two other teens
June 6, 2003






BY BEN SCHMITT AND CECIL ANGEL
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS




A retired Detroit police officer shot and killed a man and wounded two others early Thursday morning after being robbed outside an east side bar, police said.

Robert Strickland was walking toward the Elbow Lounge on the 7300 block of Macknear Field in Detroit at 12:50 a.m. when he was approached by three teens. One brandished a gun and demanded money, said Homicide Inspector Craig Schwartz.

Strickland, 57, gave the young men $80 and credit cards. One of the teens then fired at Strickland, striking him in the stomach, Schwartz said.

The teens fled. Strickland opened fire with two handguns he was carrying legally -- a .25-caliber and a 9mm -- Schwartz said. He fired 17 shots, striking the 15-year-old suspect in the back and an 18-year-old suspect in the back of the left leg. The third suspect, Antonio Harris, 18, was killed after being struck in the head, Schwartz said. All three were from Detroit.

Stephanie Henry, a bartender at the Elbow Lounge, was working when she heard gunshots. She said she she kept working because it didn't sound close by and the bar has had little trouble with crime.

"It's a nice place," she said.

A moment later, Strickland, a regular customer, walked in and sat in the chair at the end of the bar nearest the door, Henry said. He appeared calm.

"He just sat down and told me to call the police," she said.

She barely remembers what happened after she found out he had been shot. "It was a scary feeling," she said.

The two wounded suspects were listed in temporarily serious condition Thursday night at St. John Detroit Riverside Hospital. Strickland was in critical but stable condition at Detroit Receiving Hospital. All three are expected to live, Schwartz said.

The wounded suspects were questioned by police. They face felony charges, including armed robbery.

No charges are expected against Strickland, Schwartz said.

Strickland, who lives in Detroit, joined the department in 1967 and retired as a sergeant on disability in 1986.

He had worked in the 11th (Davison) Precinct.
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Old July 20, 2005, 04:50 PM   #49
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Moral of the story: You don't know if you're a "good shot" until the day you have to shoot someone who is stabbing you in the throat, or who is holding a shotgun on you while you're taking off your drawers, or until three animals come up on you and shoot you AFTER you hand over your wallet or who just killed your partner and shot you and is now running down the street while you're bleeding. THAT'S who a "good shooter" is. And if you can do all these things at about a .16 BAC, you're a REALLY good shooter....Just kidding....
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Old July 20, 2005, 05:02 PM   #50
ATW525
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Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,723
Quote:
How about you other range guys? Ever make a shot like that?
Well, I tried convincing a couple of my friends to sit in a car so I could try, but they weren't very cooperative with helping me practice...
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