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Old June 1, 2005, 02:40 PM   #126
SamD
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If you allow evil people to keep you from doing what is lawfully yours to do.
the evil has won.

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Old June 1, 2005, 08:16 PM   #127
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P.S. I am not sure I would categorize CPR and CCW as the same. One is strictly used to save life presenting no danger to others. The other can be used to take life either BG's or Innocents depending on your training and skills.
CPR and other first aid skills can be misused causing injury or death to a victim. Don't think for a minute you won't be sued for trying to help someone out in a situation like that. One case comes to mind in which a sheriff's deputy lost his legs when hit by a drunk driver in our town. A retired LEO (Massachusetts state trooper?) stopped to help and was sued for putting a tourniquet on his leg.

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Old June 2, 2005, 07:00 AM   #128
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Wayne I agree that you can hurt the victim with CPR or first aid. What I meant to get across is he or she is the only one you can hurt. Using CPR can only hurt the person you are working on, a CCW can not only hurt the BG but other innocent victims as well. That is why I said the Two really can't be compared.
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Old June 13, 2005, 08:41 PM   #129
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No vest, no backup, no radio, 1 magazine, not sure who who's working with him... I would quietly get on the cell phone and act as one hell of a witness unless the stuff really hits the fan.
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Old June 23, 2005, 06:05 AM   #130
big daddy 9mm
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let me think..

if he looked like he was going to shoot the clerk then I would shoot his ass, but if not then I would get my a$$ out of there as soon as posisible and call the fuzz.
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Old July 1, 2005, 04:07 AM   #131
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I will scan the surroundings for a clear shot and take it. A lot of armed robbers shoot their victims even if they are cooperative as my friends mom found out. She owns a small resturant and was locking up. One guy walks in with a gun and since she has been robbed a few times in the past she hands him the money like always but this time the guy shoots her in the chest severing nerves, she is now paralyzed from the neck down. If I was ever in a situtation like that I will not hestitate to take out the robber. Besides, its not like the pizza guy will file charges aganist you after you take out someone threatening to kill you.
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Old July 1, 2005, 07:52 AM   #132
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Besides, its not like the pizza guy will file charges aganist you after you take out someone threatening to kill you.
Probably not, but the BG's family might.
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Old July 1, 2005, 08:59 AM   #133
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it all depends on the situation/scenario. 99% chance is that i would make like hell out of the store and drive far away. if that 1% chance of him not having a clear shot on anyone and him not seeing me at the same time with no innocent civis by him... i would most certainly push his wig back with a nice hollow point.
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Old July 2, 2005, 01:02 AM   #134
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What if his gun was not loaded or a pellet gun and you shot him in the head standing behind him? I would not feel good about that (though if he pointed anything that looked like a gun at me I would shoot). If you can not take cover and from cover tell him to drop the gun then you should leave the scene.
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Old July 2, 2005, 02:02 AM   #135
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Its on the security cameras, BG was seen pulling a "gun" and using it in a threatening manner. If those damned proscuetors can spin a yarn into getting some little kid in jail for plinking cans with a toy gun im sure I can find a defense attorney that will substantiate my story.
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Old July 2, 2005, 07:53 AM   #136
Mongo the Mutterer
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Check your six, NOW.

Does the BG have an accomplice? a getaway driver? someone who would be totally po'd if you turned his head into a spaghetti bowl?

I will protect mine and me. I will also protect others, but it is MY responsiblity not to be turned into wallpaper by a 12 gauge from an accomplice.

If you pull your piece, the accomplice may waste you immediately.

If it is clear, pull it, and watch the BG. If he looks like he is going to take the money and run, let him get the hell out. If he looks like he is going to kill the kid for a few bucks, I would blow him the hell away.

Why would you go to a pizza place which you know has been robbed three times recently? Aren't there other places to eat? Do you have a Charles Bronson complex? Just questions to ask yourself.
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Old July 2, 2005, 12:39 PM   #137
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mmm....

I would just keep eating....
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Old July 2, 2005, 06:11 PM   #138
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The argument that the pizza shop is not a necessity is a fairly valid one.

However, to answer the original question: I would shoot, assuming that I had a clear shot and there were no accomplices.

In PA, we may legally use lethal force to defend others in any circumstance where the victim of the crime could legally use lethal force. That is, since I could shoot someone for drawing a gun on me, I can also shoot someone for pulling a gun on somebody else.

If somebody has a gun (loaded, unloaded, facsimile, or otherwise) and is using it in a threatening manner, the only rational assumption is that they're willing to shoot somebody.

Lawsuits, I can deal with (hell, my total assets only amount to a few grand anyway). Knowing that I could have acted to save somebody's life, but didn't would haunt me forever.
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Old July 16, 2005, 06:39 PM   #139
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Old thread-new reply

On a thread witha 7 page reply list, I don't read them all....sorry....short attention span. Here is how I view it...from a civilian point of view.

Walking into the situation, you DON'T know, or should presume he has a accomplice watching the situation. It's a safer bet. My first priority is going to the 10 other people....quick view and tell whisper to the closest one to call the police. Then, quickly turn your attention back to the robbery. You can take a shot, yes, but then you open yourself up to ALOT of litigation.....a personal satisfaction from doing what is right yes, but litigation out the ying-yang. Be prepared for that.

If you can get through the situation without a loss of life, the better it all is. Heck, with so many camera phones out there, snap a picture of him and send it to the detectives....lol. I say, keep cover, monitor the situation and try to assertain if he will shoot the clerk. I don't want the haunting image of brain matter flying all over the place.

Just because you have the ability to kill, doesn't mean every time to use it.

The BG may be scum, a low life, but he is still a person....why take a human life unless it is absolutely needed.
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Old July 16, 2005, 11:01 PM   #140
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Didn't read it all either

I like the shepard idea. I would have a hard time living with myself is something happened to those people and I got out cus I left. I mean, I don't just carry to protect me. I carry to protect other people too. I mean, how would you feel if you found out later that he capped some little kid?

But on the other hand, he might have an accomplice. If possible, quietly get the other customers to leave out the back while getting on the phone. And I make damn sure the operator knows I'm armed.

Now if its me, once everyone possible is out, I'm staying. First I'm gonna try and locate another BG. If I see one or more, time to leave. Discretion is the better part of valor.

If one BG, then I find the most defensive place I can that has a view of the exits and bathroom. Get my pistol out and ready. Center my sights. Call out to him. Be authoritative, but not over the top. Tell him that the police are on the way and that if he wants to live, he should leave now. If he threatens either me or the cashier, bang.

Oh and one other thing: If he looks either intoxicated or high, I empty the magazine. I really don't wanna wrestle a guy on PCP.
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Old July 17, 2005, 06:36 PM   #141
Lawyer Daggit
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I would leave and call 911 or if I could not do so get my gun ready and monitor the situation.

If you pull the gun and alarm the BG you may start a firefight and there are too many potential targets there.

Even professionals would be unlikely to engage a bad guy in there- it would be likely to generate a firefight and a hostage situation.

It may be safer for law enforcement officers to tackle him outside.
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Old August 10, 2005, 09:48 PM   #142
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If you shoot a Bg that's robbing a pizza hut prepare to spend the next 20 years in prison. Some people think since they have a ccw permit that means they are law enforcement. If you use your weapon in this manner it's going to cost you big time. Having a ccw permit does not give you the right to take the law into your own hands, it allows you to protect yourself when you feel YOU are in immediate danger that could result in serious harm or death. YOU doesn't mean the pizza boy.
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Old August 12, 2005, 01:50 PM   #143
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Wrong Hahnb. Many officers have been saved or assisted by law-abiding citizens who used their guns against bad guys. Your attitude sickens me. As long as YOU are not in danger, that's all YOU care about.
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Old August 12, 2005, 04:03 PM   #144
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Many officers have been saved or assisted by law-abiding citizens who used their guns against bad guys.
I'm not getting into your guys argument, but I'd just love to read some of these stories. It seems a stretch in todays political climate. You said "many", so a "few" wouldn't be hard to source & post, eh?

Thanks.
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Old August 13, 2005, 02:43 AM   #145
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"CPR and other first aid skills can be misused causing injury or death to a victim. Don't think for a minute you won't be sued for trying to help someone out in a situation like that. One case comes to mind in which a sheriff's deputy lost his legs when hit by a drunk driver in our town. A retired LEO (Massachusetts state trooper?) stopped to help and was sued for putting a tourniquet on his leg. "



One cannot be successfully sued for using CPR or first aid in an emergency situation. At least not in my state. It is called the Good Samaritan law. So long as the person gets permission from the victim to help and does not attempt techniques they are not trained for. If the victim is unconscious, permission is assumed. In the case above, doctors in surgery use tourniquets. CPR classes do not teach their use. The ex LEO above over stepped. The same with a tracheotomy. Leave that stuff to the professionals.

If the victim is unconscious, has no pulse and you break a few ribs and tear up some cartilage giving chest compressions ( which you will if you do it right) you can't be sued.

If you misdiagnose and a victim goes into anaphylactic shock because of an allergy and you think he is simply choking. You start doing abdominal thrusts on him. He continues to choke and clutch his throat. He tries to say something to you but you can't make out what it is. He eventually passes out and stops breathing. Now you try to breath for him and the breaths won't go in. You look for an obstruction and try again. Finally the EMT guys get there and you find out you totally misread the symptoms from the beginning. You STILL can't be sued because you did the best you could with the knowledge you had and you didn't overstep your training. Luckily a shot of epinephrine and he is right as rain in a few minutes.

Next time he promises to ware his medic alert bracelet. :barf:
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Old August 13, 2005, 04:08 AM   #146
Hawes45
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Having been the pizza guy

involved in several situations over the years (could write a book)
you must make a judgement call and be able to read people
as nowadays a lot of BGs will shoot regardless if they get
what they want or not and you have to know your own
limitations mentally ie:
1) Could you honestly live with yourself by taking another life?
This sounds anti but really think for a moment and if not
go with the flock and when you get home lock the piece up
for good as you could endanger others by not actually going
through with it.
2) Are you prepared for the legal onslaught that will follow
until the investigation clears everything?
3) Are ready to stand up to the anti crowd who think that
there had to be another way? (WAAAAAAA)

This is just my .02 pennies

P.S. I have drawn but never had to fire (fortunately) but
the my life a loved one or an innocent I would not
hesitate and can honestly say I could live with it.
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Old August 13, 2005, 01:41 PM   #147
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Apparently you haven't read the laws concerning concealed carry. It only gives you the right to defend yourself, or family members in the event of serious bodily harm or death.
Clearly, you haven't read them either. Nor have you paid attention to the law regarding self-defense. The general rule is that a person may use deadly force when there is an imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent, whether that person is you, a family member, or a clerk you've never seen before but who now has a gun in his or her face. The reasonable and subjective standards still apply, but doing so is not "acting as a police officer" nor "taking the law into your own hands." The law is squarely on the side of defending the innocent; the only question is whether the particular facts at issue warrant deadly force.
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Old August 13, 2005, 01:43 PM   #148
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Maybe JoshuaHanh should spend more time actually researching the laws he quotes and less time trolling.

In Fla he would be well within his rights to come to the aid of any victim of violent crime.
Please show me the link to the laws of any state that specifically limit defense to self or state approved family members.

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Even if you kill someone in your own home they can question whether that person was intending to harm you or not
In many states the fact that he is in your home without authorization or invitation is proof that he means you harm.

Google up "Castle Doctrine" or "Make My Day Law

Do it quickly, judging from your other post on the BOB thread you may not be here much longer

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Old August 13, 2005, 01:52 PM   #149
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Comes from being a seat polisher.

By the way, for the people who have talked about getting the other 10 people out of the building and being a good witness: how exactly do you plan on doing that without precipitating a firefight? Anything you do or say to get them out of the area will tip off the bad guy, who's likely to start popping off rounds once the crowd starts moving and freaking him out.
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Old August 13, 2005, 02:04 PM   #150
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So if the BG has a knife does that constitute deadly force? What about a brick? What about his fists? You don't understand that the law ISN'T SET IN STONE. The jury/judge decides what happens to you, not the law.
Well, you just proved you haven't studied the issue. If a person has the ability and opportunity to put you in jeopardy, then the rules apply. A person with a knife or brick (or bludgeon as the law looks at it) can easily kill a person they can reach, and law enforcement knows full well that anyone can cover 21 feet is less than 1.5 seconds. As for fists, it's a more difficult issue. If disparity of force is involved (i.e. martial artist, significantly larger or clearly stronger), then the use of fists can constitute deadly force and the distance rule comes into play. And if the person gets within striking range, they are within range to grab your weapon. Cops are trained to shoot the bad guy off the gun as a last resort, so I see no issue in that.

I'm very familiar with the fluid nature of the law. But you aren't familiar with the fact that the law does have structure consisting of statutes and precedents. And those are both firmly on my side, not yours.

As for the jury/judge deciding, the case has to go to them first. Which means the cops, DA, and/or grand jury have found probable cause to determine you did something wrong. Barring political considerations, that means you screwed up somewhere in the decision making or explaining process. So, I would suggest getting training in this area so you don't screw said process.
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