Scenario: What would you do?

[easymoney]

What's the law say will happen to you if you do drop him even though you had clear access to an exit???

[Blackhawk]

King is right, or at least that's what I'd do.

[Christopher II]

No.
I'm saying the same thing I say whenever these type of threads come up.
I'm saying that I would protect myself, and a few other people who I feel obligated to, first. That means retreating, if possible. In this case, it almost certainly would be. I'd be out of the resturant through the kitchen/emergency exit/convienent window/any other line of retreat available.

- Chris

[Chris W]

easymoney,

I don't know about the law in all states, but I do know that here in NC, I have the right to use 'justifiable deadly force' in the place of anyone else who has that same right. Now, it is conceivable that pizza-counter guy does not have this right in this situation--if, for instance, he has escalated a conflict that wasn't originally about money by pulling a knife and insulting the BG's girlfriend. Right--pretty thin odds. Chances are very good he has the right to use deadly force here (armed robbery is a violent crime and justifies deadly force, at least here); so shooting the BG where he stands and without warning is legally supported, unless the clerk has really thrown a wrench in the machine.

That doesn't mean it's gonna be pleasant to deal with the legal system, though, and it doesn't mean there are no consequences to killing a guy, even a B guy. I think I'd draw from cover, if I could get back around that corner, get a bead on the guy and hope nothing comes his deadly threat to the Pizza guy; maybe that's just an Airsoft he's wavin' around. I'd hate myself, of course, if he did kill the kid (and, of course, I'd shoot him).

cw

[Glamdring]

Ben: Where do you live? I want to move!

***

I have intervened (stopped) in assaults a few times in the past. I know I would intervene in a situation like this, how exactly would depend on the details (ie angles of fire etc). Ideally would engage from cover and some type of supported shooting position.

IMO defending someone else is the price I pay in exchange for the hope that someone else might help me or one of the people I care about if some goblin has the drop on us.

I know that at least one female family member was aided by strangers when being attacked/stalked by aggressive/violent ex. BTW she did file police report, get restraining order, and obtain a CCW after that incident.

I am curious, if the goblin was threatening a women that was pregant or that had children would those that would retreat from this situation do anything different? If so, why?

[pbarrick]

I would leave the scene and call the cops on my cell phone from a position of cover. You can't outdraw a weapon that's already in play and you'll do more good by making sure that the cops and EMS get there ASAP.

[DT Guy]

How did we get to a time and place where pointing a gun at someone and threatening their life ISN'T threatening enough to justify defensive force...?

What would YOU expect to happen if you pointed a pistol at someone near Jeff Cooper or Ray Chapman?

Trying to decide when the pistol pointing turns 'dangerous' is simply pointless.

Larry

[rlpinca]

Like I said before, what about his friend that's over by the door? Unless you're there in the situation you can't really decide what to do. If you just automatically say"I'd shoot the bastard" then you aren't really prepared for anything. You've watched too much TV and will give gun owners a bad name.

However if you start asking questions like a few other people have, then you're prepared and can make an inteligent choice on what to do. Think about who's on the other side of the bg's head, if he's alone, if your bullet is going to go through his head into the parking lot into a the first responding officer. How about if you have an IWB holster with a shirt tucked around it and a jacket on top of that? If you know you can't draw quickly and quitely, then you're screwed unless you hide and slowly draw before getting itno position.

If you were in the situation and just automatically jump up and start shooting without analyzing the situation, you're an idiot. His friend by the door shoots you, original bg is startled by shot and shoots the cashier, someone jumps up to check on you and bg thinks they are going for your gun, and it goes on and on.

But if you look all around, he's alone and obviously focused on the money and not paying attention, nobody is on the other side of him, and you know where the bullet is going to stop, then you can proceed to remove a large chunk of his head.

[OF]

If you just automatically say"I'd shoot the bastard" then you aren't really prepared for anything. You've watched too much TV and will give gun owners a bad name.

You know, you're not the only one here who comprehends the importance of awareness and analysis of the situation as best you can. No one that I have noticed is saying you should act in the most ill-informed spontaneous and irresponsible manner possible. OF COURSE you take into account where your rounds will land, how many perps there are, where they are, how you are armed, etc. etc. etc. It is a GIVEN that you will intervene in the most careful and prudent manner possible after weighing your options and evaluating the scene.

The scenario is that there is a lone slime involved in an armed robbery.

That said, can we get back to the important point of whether or not you would intervene, assuming you could do it without shooting anyone's kids.

- Gabe

[Capital Punishment]

He has a gun. I have a clear shot. I will take it. Simple as that. Im doing the world good by removing the BG from the gene pool.

Any questions?

BTW- lets say he was pointing the gun directly at the clerks head. Well, that scenario calls for a headshot. By shooting him in the head, you remove the possibility of him "accidentally" shooting, as you remove his ability to move, let alone shoot.

[Ben Shepherd]

I live in Utah.

It is actually legal to carry openly fully loaded, as long as you have a permit. I and several others that I am acquainted with do so quite often. I have yet to have anyone do more than a second glance when doing so.

When carrying it is law that when aproached by an officer you must inform them you are armed. I've talked "officially" to police more than a dozen times since obtaining my permit. Not one of them was even slightly upset that I was armed.

[Double Naught Spy]

No doubt that you can shoot the bad guy, at least in most states.

What I didn't follow was just how far you were from the bad guy. At a local place where I like to sit, I would be a good 20 yards from the register. Do I really want to attempt that far of a shot?

Probably the most critical question would pertain to where I had gone wrong in assessing the situation. There is one bad guy that I see. There are 10 people whom I believe to be patrons. There is one clerk giving the bad guy the money or trying to. Okay, so where are the other bad guys and where are the other pizza employees. Chances are, he isn't alone, so I am no doubt missing some critical information about the situation. Maybe his partner(s) is outside, inside, or both.

If I did not see the bad guy come in and don't notice him until the action starts, how do I know he is alone in the store? Does his partner(s) have the manager going through the safe in the back of the store. Maybe his partner is outside the pizza shop behind me with a shotgun. Have I surveyed everything sufficiently enough to know that if I do decide to act that I won't immediately come under fire or the other 10 patrons won't immediately come under fire as a result of my action. I realize I am not responsible if a bad guy (that I see now or who may also be in the store or outside looking in with his shotgun) shoots the other patrons, but do I risk that?

[rlpinca]

GRD the scenario is that you SEE a lone gunman. Nobody said they would act in an uninformed manner, but only a few brought up how they would analyze it and what potential dangers there were or are we supposed to assume that everyone thinks before shooting?

[CMichael]

I am concerned about the other people in the restaurant. There is a danger to them to potentially starting a shoot out in a crowded restaurant.

Michael

[Hemicuda]

You say I am undiscovered, and that I have a CLEAR shot... meaning that my bullet path (even beyond the perp) is clear?

I drop him... 2 COM, and 1 to the head... no question in my mind...

I was in fear for the life of the pizzaguy... and also my own... one less idjit in the world... (or suicide by CCW, if you prefer)

[MP Freeman]

Pull the pin on my Concealed Carry Grenade, roll towards perp, jump for cover.

Or

Mentally burn good picture of what I saw and take note of time and description of threat. Strategically manuevar my hind quarters away from threat. Check holster, Open cell phone, call in Po-po, be good witness for po-po, go home.

If other people are in resturaunt, and there is a crowd of customers, perp prolly won't discharge gun. And prolly has a buddy in a get away car outside, beware of that. Don't know if perp is alone or with others.

[OF]

are we supposed to assume that everyone thinks before shooting?

Actually, yes, I was assuming that everyone would think before acting. For me, the big question of the scenario was whether or not it was morally defensible to engage someone in the act of armed robbery.

- Gabe

[Razorplane]

richhelton84,

No, I think what Chris may be saying is that in this situation, since he was unnoticed and his life was not immediately threatened, the more prudent thing would be to slip out and call 911.

It's one thing to take on the responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and yet another to take on the responsibility to protect society at large.

[richhelton84]

quote: "It's one thing to take on the responsibility to protect yourself and your family, and yet another to take on the responsibility to protect society at large."

That's very true. I hadn't thought about slipping out. Most of the Pizza Huts I've been in have the exits to due right and left of the cash register, so there wouldn't be much of a chance of slipping out without the BG noticing you. Then, if you did somehow get to the door unnoticed, he'd definitely know you were trying to get out.

I just assumed that the people in Pizza Hut were all unable to exit the restaurant because of the position of the doors to the cash register. Smashing and jumping out a window might be an option.

Rich

[Fred Hansen]

What GRD said.

All I would add is that:

"I was in fear for my life, and that of the employee's. I am very upset right now, and I would like to speak with my attorney."

[Edward429451]

The scenario spelled it out that I am alone, without my family.

I'd immediately move closer to the ground towards cover or at least concealment (while making assessments and drawing), and if he didn't lower his weapon out of the clerks face in about 2 seconds or so I'd take him out. Then to calm the patrons of the sound of the shot, I'd say loudly "Oh my god, he was going to shoot the clerk, is everyone OK?" "someone call the police..."

Lotsa good replies. Lots to think about quickly.

[the blind lefty]

my first thought:where's the other guy?
besides,
i'm not questioning wether or not killing the guy is lawfull,i just note an all too willingness to kill.excuses for playing God.
-i agree that hesitation is your enemy. you must morally uphold the safety of the general public. it is time to be a hero.-
i say,take cover and assess the situation. if/when the money is had and the criminal is turning to flee,then give him a choice. if the situation escalates before hand,you have to shoot.
i think we all know the rules of intervention,so i won't bother with the play by play.

[Chuck Ames]

Folks,

There are too many factors to say what you would do one way or the other. Many of the leading defense experts say do nothing; be a good witness.

Sorry, but most of us are good shots, not great, though as men we tell ourselves we are. I am SRT qualified, Executive Protection qualified, and I am an agent with the Army's CID, but I can't say that I would start putting rounds downrange.

Are you sure that once you shoot, he is not going to get a shot or shots off? I saw the two to com, one to the head post, and whatever. I've seen a lot of federal agents shoot, and I'm not very confident that many of them could make the shot under stress.

And do you ever throw rounds at the range? For most of us the answer is probably. Even if it's every once in a while. Are you sure you won't miss and spark a gunfight, which possible kills the person you were saving or even yourself. Gunfighters miss all the time. And I'm talking about cops, who generally have more training than a lot of the people on this post. The question is: how good are you? Most people I know are not very good at appraising their own shooting skill.

Law is also a critical factor, too. If I'm not mistaken, Florida requires you to retreat as long as there is an avenue of escape, but Alabama lets you whack a car-jacker.

Mr. Capital Punishment,

If you ever shoot someone pray that no one associates your name with that post. We shoot to stop. Period! The army, of which I am a member, shoots to kill (actually wound, but that's some theoretical crap about it taking two soldiers to care for a wounded one). So you put one in the BG's brain bucket and you had better be prepared to articulate why you did it. If you come across as I'm ready to kill any bad guy stupid enough to cross my path, the defense, media, and media influenced prosecutor is going to have a field day.

"Mr. Punishment, is it not true that you didn't really need to fire that head shot; that you were simply looking to kill some one?

No? Well did you not one post a message where you stated that you would be happy to remove someone from the 'gene pool.'"

It's downhill from there. It doesn't matter if what you did was right or wrong, but how it is perceived.

There is no easy answer. In some situations, you may shoot based on nothing more than things which you can't articulate, a feeling, a premonition. In others, you may sense that there is no need to shoot. That the criminal is merely posturing. I can't be sure and neither can anyone here.

Regards to all,
Chuck Ames

He who knows neither himself nor his enemy is a fool, and will meet defeat in every battle.
~Sun Tzu

[Master Blaster]

I am NOT a police officer.

Starting a gunfight in a restaurant over a few dollars is s bad idea.

I would get the 10 people out the back door, and call 911 on my cell phone.


Or I could call in a B-52 strike on my space command radio.

You folks who would take em out with a head shot need to stop watching movies and get a clue. Other wise you will end up dead, or in a cell with Buba.

[justmeandmydr200]

Valid responses!
My choice:
A. Get the other ten people outside for safety.
B. Cover the BG for them.
C. Call 911.
D. Continue armed monitoring of the situation, shoot if need be to
save the clerk.
E. Secure your weapon as soon as the cops pull up.