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Old January 1, 2018, 01:48 AM   #1
Prof Young
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WWII Bring Back Gun From German Officer?

The gun in the attached pictures was taken off a German Officer by a friend's Uncle. Whatever you can tell us would be helpful. Most especially what is 7,65 caliber (assuming Kal means caliber.) Pictures below and in the next post.

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File Type: jpg RGun 1.JPG (117.0 KB, 405 views)
File Type: jpg RGun 2.JPG (100.4 KB, 252 views)
File Type: jpg RGun 3.JPG (104.3 KB, 222 views)

Last edited by Prof Young; January 1, 2018 at 02:12 AM.
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Old January 1, 2018, 01:49 AM   #2
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Second post about German Bring back gun.

Here are the other two pics.

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File Type: jpg RGun 5.JPG (113.6 KB, 141 views)
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Old January 1, 2018, 02:03 AM   #3
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It's 7.65 mm (.32ACP/ .32Browning)
..... Czech.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...del-27-pistol/
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Old January 1, 2018, 02:14 AM   #4
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Cool. Thanks.

Cool. Thanks.
My buddy will be pleased with this info.
Very helpful.

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Old January 1, 2018, 12:14 PM   #5
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As pointed out above, it a CZ-27 (Model 27) in what we call .32 acp. Nice example.

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Old January 1, 2018, 03:16 PM   #6
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I don't know what the value might be, but you should document the circumstances associated with acquiring the gun.

Unit the Uncle served in, date, where he picked it up and what the circumstances were including all details possible (battle, prisoner, name of office it was taken off of if available)
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Old January 1, 2018, 03:39 PM   #7
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32 cal was popular among officers, for some as a sort of badge of office,
or representation of rank,
for others as a convenient, but effective, hold-out gun. That's a beauty.
Nice find!
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Old January 3, 2018, 02:37 AM   #8
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I have read that most of the 7.65 pistols were police pistols, many seized during the Allied occupation forces after the collapse of the Reich.

I have also heard and read many, many stories of weapons "seized from a German officer", but without supporting evidence (war memorabilia forms from the US Army, for instance), it is just a cool story. FWIW, the war memorabilia form was required to take a pistol acquired during combat, but many were taken anyway and just smuggled back. A lot of them were also liberated by US troops from large piles where they were stored in buildings in the occupied areas. Somewhere during the trip home, the GI would suddenly remember that he acquired the weapon in heavy combat after fighting hand-to-hand against overwhelming odds . . .

Absent official provenance documents, buy the gun and not the story.

My Dad served in the Pacific, so no trophies were seized from German officers. Most were taken directly from Tojo himself after fighting hand-to-hand against overwhelming odds . . .
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Old January 3, 2018, 08:00 AM   #9
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Does your friend have the "bring back" paperwork? That's the only way to get full collectors value. The rest is just stories, collectors don't buy stories, suckers do.
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Old January 3, 2018, 08:51 AM   #10
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During the war the Germans officially made significant use of firearms from the nations that they invaded.

In some cases, if the gun was chambered for a non-standard cartridge, it tended to remain in the nation of origin. Examples of that are the Norwegian 1911 (.45 ACP) and the MAS 35 (.30 Long) in France.

Firearms in "standard" chamberings (although not necessarily military standard) were readily adopted, including those chambered for .25, .32, and .380 ACP.

I don't think it's quite as true that these guns would have gone primarily to officers -- they would have generally had German-made guns by Walther, Sauer, or Mauser.

Primarily these small caliber handguns were brought into service for support service troops -- truck drivers, artillery men, even Luftwaffe aircrew -- so that the Luger and Walther handguns could be diverted to combat units.

That it was taken from an officer may mean that the individual was part of the original invasion of Czechoslovakia.

I don't see any evidence of Waffnapts (markings to designate manufactured by the German state), which means that it was made prior to the German occupation.
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Old January 3, 2018, 09:46 PM   #11
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A touch more info . . .

After showing my buddy the posts and talking more . . . They used to have some paper work, but have lost track of it. The "paper work" may only have been a letter from the Uncle. They still have the leather holster that has the mag pouch on it. He has two magazines as well. Gun was in possession of his oldest son and the paper work may have been lost in the process of a divorce. Rats. Ah well. Still a very cool gun. He has decided to not shoot it, but just keep if for the historical value. Will "look" for paper work.

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Old January 3, 2018, 11:12 PM   #12
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It had to have been made under German occupation because the markings are in German, not the original Czech. Actually, the Model [19]27 in 7.65mm was made only for the Germans. The original Czech pistol, the Vzor (Model) 24, was made for the 9mm Short (.380 ACP) but that ammunition was not in the German supply system, so they had the Czechs convert the gun to 7.65mm which not only brought it into conformity with the German ammo supply system but also allowed used of a simpler blowback system rather than the turning barrel locked breech system used for the Vz 24.

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Old January 4, 2018, 07:57 AM   #13
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I don't believe that that is entirely accurate, Jim.

The CZ 27 was developed and sold commercially starting about 1928. It was adopted by numerous Chech government and police organizations.

After German occupation in March 1939 production of the 27 was continued unabated.

You're correct that this one was produced under German administration because of the markings, but as it doesn't have Waffnamps it was likely made prior to 1940.

The .380 may not have been an "official" military cartridge (in fact, neither was the .32 ACP until the war began), but the rounds were certainly manufactured by German companies, and .380 handguns such as the VZ 24, the Walther PP/PPK, and Mauser HsC were taken into German service and issued during the war.
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Old January 4, 2018, 06:17 PM   #14
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I inherited a pre-war Walther PPK 7.65mm from my father-in-law some 30 years ago. It came with the papers, so it's legal, and a military holster with a soldier's serial # inside. It's a civilian model as there are no military markings anywhere on it. It has two magazines and is quite accurate. It's on the bottom with two PPK/S above it.

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Old January 5, 2018, 02:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
He has two magazines as well.
Two magazines almost always indicates a surrendered pistol. In the field, a GI capturing an enemy soldier carrying a pistol would dump the magazine on the ground and clear the weapon, leaving the extra magazine in the holster carry pouch (US 1911 pistols used generic magazines, supplied in bandoleers by supply. German pistols' magazines were numbered to the gun). When the enemy soldier was turned over to military intelligence staff, the firearm might be taken as a memento or kept by interrogators, but it would only have 1 matching number magazine because the other one was dumped during the capture. Sure, aftermarket magazines were available, but not numbered to the gun.

On the other hand, a surrendered pistol would be brought to a designated location and turned over unloaded, so it would retain 2 matching number magazines.

Without period documentation, it is impossible to say what happened at this point.
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Old January 14, 2018, 09:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
The gun in the attached pictures was taken off a German Officer by a friend's Uncle. Whatever you can tell us would be helpful. Most especially what is 7,65 caliber (assuming Kal means caliber.) Pictures below and in the next post.
I have a CZ-27 Nazi proofed. It was a Luftwaffe issue weapon during the war.
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Old January 15, 2018, 09:20 AM   #17
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Mike, the WAA stamp is the German army acceptance mark, if it was sold as privately owned officer pistol (or for that matter any number of other organizations) it wouldn't have that acceptance mark even if made during war production.
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Old January 15, 2018, 12:38 PM   #18
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Maps,

After the German military brought the 27 into service I sincerely doubt if any were manufactured and sold separately to officers. At that point the German military was sucking up all of the firearms it could to arm new units, and firearms were issued to officers because virtually all production - domestic and in occupied countries - was sucked up by the military.
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Old January 17, 2018, 02:01 AM   #19
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I erred in stating that the CZ 27 was not produced prior to the German occupation, but only about 15,000 were made prior to the takeover. The CZ 24 (Vz 24, in 9mm Short) continued in production through most of that period for the Czech Army and police. In the last year or so, the CZ 38 (the so-called "Czech P-38", also in 9mm Short) was produced for the Czech army, but it was also dropped in favor of the CZ 27 after the German occupation. Both guns were taken over and used by the German police but none were made after the occupation because of the ammunition situation.

Some CZ 27's are seen with both Czech (top of slide) and German (left side) markings. Those may have been in factory stock at the time of the occupation so the original marking was left alone and the new one added.

After the German takeover (which was in two stages) the CZ 24 was dropped entirely and all production concentrated on the CZ 27 or P.27(t) in the German nomenclature. The major reason was that the 9mm Short (.380 ACP) was not in the German military or police supply system, the same reason the Hungarian Model 37 was converted to 7.65 for sale to the Germans.* (Of course a German may have been able to obtain commercial ammunition, but he would have had to buy it, not just go to his supply room.)

In response to another poster, CZ 27's with German markings but without the Waffenamt (Weapons Office) acceptance stamp were for police use.

Jim

*Unlike Belgium, France, Czechoslovakia, etc., Hungary was not an occupied country. It was an ally of Germany almost to the end of the war, and sale of Hungarian arms to Germany was a straight commercial proposition.

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Old January 17, 2018, 07:27 AM   #20
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Except, the German government had another way to obtain 9mm Kurz ammunition during WW II...

Continue to manufacture it at munitions plants in occupied nations.

Halfway down on this page: https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...5mm-boxes/5964

.380 was manufactured at FN in Belgium and other nations and supplied to the German military throughout the war.
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Old January 17, 2018, 12:04 PM   #21
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Sorry, Mike for not being clear.

I did not say that 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP) was unobtainable in Germany; there were thousands of pistols of that caliber in civilian hands in Germany, and ammo was as close as the nearest gun shop. What I said was that 9mm Kurz ammo was not in the German military or police supply system, not that it could not be obtained on the commercial market. (I don't know if commercial ammo manufacturing continued during the war, but if so it was probably on a very limited basis, as in the US.)

It would have been the same situation as an American GI carrying a personal Colt in .38 Super; he could probably get ammo, but not through his unit supply room.

FWIW, as I understand, nations at war exchange (through a neutral country) information on uniforms, standard issue weapons and ammo. So the Germans would have known (if they bothered to check) that the .38 Super Colt was not an authorized weapon and my hypothetical GI could have been shot if captured with it.

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Old January 17, 2018, 02:04 PM   #22
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You're missing my point, Jim. As Germany expanded its war reach, pistols in 9mm Kurz BECAME part of the officially sanctioned military issue, and ammunition was procured to supply those individuals who were so armed.

They had to, because there was a desperate need for handguns, especially in the later years of the war. And to supply those handguns with ammunition, production was maintained at plants like FN.

Yes, some officers may have entered the war with personal handguns chambered in 9mm Kurz.

But after the dramatic expansion of the war in 1940-41, 9mm Kurz handguns and ammunition were accepted as military issue.

The same thing happened in the United States. At the onset of the War neither the .38 Smith & Wesson or the .38 Special cartridges or handguns so chambered were military issue.

That quickly changed as the need for handguns increased dramatically.

Regarding obtaining ammunition "commercially," remember that German and the United States operated much the same way when it came to ammunition (at least when it came to ammo companies in Germany proper and not in occupied nations)

What needs couldn't be met by government arsenals were met by contracts let to private manufacturers.

Private companies like RWS formed an integral part of Germany's production chain.
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Old January 17, 2018, 02:58 PM   #23
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I have read that the Germans issued odd caliber guns to occupiers in their home countries.
For example, .45s in Norway, and 7.65 Longue in France, keeping them as close as possible to native ammo.

The situation was probably better with .380, but not so good that they did not change Czech and Hungarian production priority to .32.
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Old January 19, 2018, 11:01 PM   #24
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All that Mike says seems logical, but, like other military organizations, the Wehrmacht tired to keep the "cats and dogs" to a minimum. I have seen German supply lists and cartridges like the 9mm Kurz and 6.35 Browning are not on them. That does not mean that limited supplies could not be obtained (on the US side, if George Patton wanted .32 ACP for his Colt Pocket Model, I will bet he got it!), but only the 9mm P and the 7.65 Browning were standard issue.

Yes, existing ammo was captured and continued to be issued by puppet police or military in countries like France and Norway, but little or none was made in oddwad calibers after the occupation for guns the Germans did not themselves take over.

As a side story, a friend, now gone, who was in the Polish underground, captured a 1928 TSMG from a German motorcycle messenger who didn't need it any more, having completely lost his head. The Poles played with the Thompson but having only the few rounds of .45 ACP the German carried, they ended up throwing the Tommy gun in a lake.

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