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Old January 24, 2009, 07:12 PM   #126
SPUSCG
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they brought a armored truck to retrieve wounded, i wouldve used it to plow down those d bags instead lets see how a ak/g3/ar does against taht
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Old January 24, 2009, 08:27 PM   #127
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Thats right, training. The first part of training is to train under actual conditions. There is a scene in the film "Glory" where one of the soldiers was firing great at the range. Then this same individual was firing while a pistol was going off in the background and he couldnt seem to hit his mark.

All it would have taken was one cool headed officer to lay down one bullet to the head. However, on that day, no one had a cool head. Everyone was running around and huddling in packs behind cars.
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Old January 24, 2009, 10:46 PM   #128
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M&P AR-15s - well done, TNG!

I was thinking about handguns as a bunch of folks I shoot with were buying the SW handguns and it was my first association.

I also remember that after the shootout, some high level officers were talking about getting 45 ACP handguns as if that was the problem.
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Old January 24, 2009, 11:22 PM   #129
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Let's see. You are a police officer in a super liberal area.
In L.A., in the movie business, if you are anything other then super liberal, anti-gun, you don't work, unless you make it so big, you can finance your own pictures.

So, while Hollyweird makes themselves incredibly rich using firearms in their movies, they are scared to death the little, poor people will come out of the wood work, and take all their property, money, and lives. These people control L.A. politically, and financially. They pick who gets elected to office, and, D.A.s and police chiefs are elected officials, so, they mirror their constituent money backers, and, they also are anti-gun. At the least hint of some sort of absurd thing like a .50 caliber ban, they go with it, at the expense of their employees, the people, and the government. Likewise they would have pink water pistols for police officers if they followed their backers to the T.

So, first, if you are that elected official, and, some sort of horror story comes out, like an officer guns down a 7 year old gang member who was shooting at him with an Uzi, your first reaction is to support the anti-gun folks, and, take the whatever caliber gun that was used, demonize it, and remove it from service.

If you take the support your officer position, you no longer have a position, come next election, as the movie folks have found another puppet to run, and put in your place.
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Old January 25, 2009, 04:29 AM   #130
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Its fairly easy to see why the North Hollywood and Miami shootout went as it did. The officers or agents simply were not as trained or motivated as their attackers. It wasnt about equipment or pistol caliber, but motivation and training.
You always post with such authority, yet you demonstrate every day just how little you actually know about anything. Unmotivated? I'm sure they were only 50% in favor of staying alive...

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There is a scene in the film "Glory" where one of the soldiers was firing great at the range. Then this same individual was firing while a pistol was going off in the background and he couldnt seem to hit his mark.

All it would have taken was one cool headed officer to lay down one bullet to the head. However, on that day, no one had a cool head. Everyone was running around and huddling in packs behind cars.
Stop watching movies and using them as your basis for knowledge. You obviously have never had bullets zipping past you or you wouldn't make assertions like that. "Huddling in packs behind cars"--- Cars are cover (sort of) and you generally use cover when you're being shot at by a long gun (or a pistol, for that matter).
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Old January 25, 2009, 10:27 AM   #131
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Thank you Hondo.

You stated my point far better than I could've. It's not easy to lay down one accurate head shot when bullets are coming towards you, and one just might have your name on it.

Me, if given a choice of "cover" or being a so called "cool headed officer" I'll take the cover every time. Why you ask? Because you never know when the other guy just might get lucky.

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Old January 25, 2009, 01:01 PM   #132
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I've always wondered why the LEOs did just take the one of the armored cars they took to round up the wounded and just run over the bad guys.
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Old January 25, 2009, 01:37 PM   #133
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All it would have taken was one cool headed officer to lay down one bullet to the head.
One cool-headed officer who was a VERY good shot.

Ever tried to hit a moving target the size of a human head at 75 yards? I've tried. I've even managed it. But only 1 or 2 times out of 50 rounds and that under no significant pressure--certainly nothing equivalent to being shot at by two guys with full auto rifles. To get an idea of my skill level, I can consistently shoot 3" five shot groups @ 25 yards with a handgun if time is not an issue.

So on the one hand you've got cops who have to make headshots with handguns at 75 yards to be effective vs bandits who only have to make body hits with long guns at the same distance. Winning under those odds takes more than a cool head, it takes a considerable amount of skill.

It's completely unrealistic to expect someone to make head shots at those distances using a handgun against multiple opponents armed with full-auto long guns.
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Old January 25, 2009, 09:19 PM   #134
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armored truck+plow over or some rifles eithe rone
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Old January 26, 2009, 06:45 PM   #135
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It is very easy to armchair quarterback this incident. But looking at it I think that it actually turned out quite well. 2 dead bad guys and wounded officers that will heal.

Having lived in tha area and been at that location many times itwas a recepie for disaster. There are thousands pf people in that area at any given time and things could have gotten bad fast.

Rather than try to reinvent the wheel here how about looking at it for what it was.. A situation that was very dangerous that no civilians got hurt in. To me that was a huge success.

Our second guessing how it could have gone better is pointless because the outcome was a success. LE learned from it and moved on so should we.
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Old February 4, 2011, 01:06 PM   #136
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I realize this is an old thread, but it seems like the appropriate place for this:

LAPD Training video from the North Hollywood shootout:


Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKKf8DlZMgk

Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo0E3PlHny8
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Old February 5, 2011, 10:24 PM   #137
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It ain't over, and we havent seen the last of fools like these.
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Old February 5, 2011, 10:44 PM   #138
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It ain't over, and we havent seen the last of fools like these.
They weren't fools. To think otherwise is a serious mistake. Both of those men were extremely competent as evidenced by their previous successful operations. They simply got unlucky that time.
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Old February 5, 2011, 11:13 PM   #139
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An old beat up Mosin Nagant 44 would have done the trick, with ball ammo.
I didn't read every single post, but it seems that any .30-06/.308 class rifle round would have been enough to end the shootout much sooner. Even if it couldn't penetrate, a couple-thousand lbs of impact force would break ribs and possible disrupt internal organs. Surely that would be enough to put down the assailants in a minute or so.

As has been noted, it seems that slugs would have made a night and day difference as well. Slam something hard enough, and no matter what it's wrapped in, it will break.
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Old February 6, 2011, 02:36 AM   #140
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They weren't fools. To think otherwise is a serious mistake. Both of those men were extremely competent as evidenced by their previous successful operations. They simply got unlucky that time.
No they were fools. They robbed a bank very slowly and loudly. When discovered by police instead of surrendering or making a quick get away they chose to stand and fight against a police department. It would have taken very good luck for them to have come out on top.

As for their previous "operations", they successfully robbed banks. Robbing banks isn't that difficult, but it is much easier without body armor, pills and machine guns.


The cops did the best they could, considering they were involved in a pistol versus fully automatic rifle shoot-out. Sure one of them could have shot the bad guys in the head but that would have required a combination of courage, skill and luck.

I expect that I would be a terrible shot if someone was firing a machine gun at me.
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Old February 6, 2011, 11:25 AM   #141
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No they were fools. They robbed a bank very slowly and loudly.
Um, no. They were known for the speed at which they were in and out of the bank and away before police could arrive. They were spotted and reported going into the bank and by luck police got there far quicker than in the past.

Quote:
Robbing banks isn't that difficult, but it is much easier without body armor, pills and machine guns.
Robbing banks and GETTING AWAY WITH IT is actually quite difficult. They successfully did this many times.

Their quick entry with gunshots into the ceiling was very effective at gaining quick compliance from everyone in the bank. A robber with a revolver or just a note to the teller can't get that sort of quick compliance, though they will frequently get a dye bomb.

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When discovered by police instead of surrendering or making a quick get away they chose to stand and fight against a police department.
How exactly would they have made a quick getaway in that situation? A space rocket? Seriously, I wanna know. The cops have cars too and helicopters seem to have no problem following cars either. Their plan relied on getting away before police arrived and melting into traffic. Staying and shooting it out was no more stupid that trying to drive away because no matter what they were screwed at that point.
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Old February 6, 2011, 12:32 PM   #142
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Um, no. They were known for the speed at which they were in and out of the bank and away before police could arrive.
Right.

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They were spotted and reported going into the bank and by luck police got there far quicker than in the past.
It isn't that the police got there far quicker than in the past, the robbers were spotted by a normal random patrol as they went into the bank and they radio'd a "possible 211 in progress."
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Old February 6, 2011, 07:36 PM   #143
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It isn't that the police got there far quicker than in the past, the robbers were spotted by a normal random patrol as they went into the bank and they radio'd a "possible 211 in progress."
My bad, you were right. I was going by memory and thought someone flagged down a passing cop car.
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Old February 6, 2011, 11:43 PM   #144
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Yeah, it was a very fortuitous event where the cops were on scene like they were. That just doesn't happen often.

Either way, you are right in that the robbers were not slow in their actions and were in and out fairly quick. They would have been out sooner had they not searched for money that wasn't in the bank and had not tried getting into the ATMs, but they didn't overstay their schedule. They played the averages and ended up on the short end of the statistical response time curve.
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Old February 7, 2011, 06:07 AM   #145
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Maybe tactical approach?

Respected all,

Would have been of any use to maybe flank the suspects (say from Agnes and Archwood and/or Agnes and Kittrich) up to the corners of the bank building, to position some shooters in effective pistol range?

I'm fully aware that it requires a lot of valor to make that kind of approach. On one hand, the approaching officers may or may not know if there are more BG's around, with the subsequent risk, and on the other hand, it may be "kind" of dangerous to approach the target area of many other officers (Murphy laws apply.- a person MAY NOT hit the head of a BG at 75 yards, but a stray bullet WILL hit the approaching officer...).

Kind regards.
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Old February 7, 2011, 10:22 PM   #146
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Um, no. They were known for the speed at which they were in and out of the bank and away before police could arrive. They were spotted and reported going into the bank and by luck police got there far quicker than in the past.
These guys planned on being in the bank for 8 minutes. Can you imagine firing a machine-gun in a public place and hanging out for 8 minutes. They immediately fired a machine gun burst into the ceiling upon entering. I'd say that's a very bad plan. They wound up staying in the bank a lot more than 8 minutes but that's not the point.

The point is that strapping on 40 pounds of body-armor, marching accross a parking lot with large machine-guns and firing the guns into the ceiling at the beginning of their robbery was a very good way to draw attention and get into a gun battle. That's probably what they wanted anyway.

I don't know the statistics but I would venture to say that most bank robberies are successful. Some bank robbers have committed dozens of robberies spanning decades and not been caught. That's amazing when you consider that most criminals are idiots with poor impulse control.


Back to the OP. I feel the police handled themselves pretty well in this extreme situation.
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Old February 7, 2011, 11:00 PM   #147
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These guys planned on being in the bank for 8 minutes. Can you imagine firing a machine-gun in a public place and hanging out for 8 minutes. They immediately fired a machine gun burst into the ceiling upon entering. I'd say that's a very bad plan. They wound up staying in the bank a lot more than 8 minutes but that's not the point.

The point is that strapping on 40 pounds of body-armor, marching accross a parking lot with large machine-guns and firing the guns into the ceiling at the beginning of their robbery was a very good way to draw attention and get into a gun battle.
They went in at 9:30 and exited at 9:38 for the first time, so they were definitely on schedule, but retreated back into the bank when confronted by the police. So they did hold to their original timeline.

Firing a machinegun into the ceiling is a bad plan? Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Displays of power are common in takeover robberies such as this and tend to be successful in quelling the occupants of the bank. Does firing draw attention? Maybe so, but if it usually takes the cops quite a while to arrive, what does it matter?

Takeover bank robberies are some of the most dangerous for the occupants of banks, and the bank community knows this.
http://www.bankersonline.com/article...hv12n12a3.html

Walking around in body armor and firing machineguns in the parking lot drew attention? By that time, it was a moot point. They had the attention of the police at the time they entered the building.
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Old February 8, 2011, 01:00 AM   #148
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This incident, like only a handful of others, chills my blood, having family holding the thin blue line. The kind of mentality to stand against the police with full and open intent to murder as many as possible makes me feel cold.

The one good result of this is that it is one of the incidents that made the Patrol Rifle - and training on it - a staple. Police today are more ready for such incidents, and even on brother's rural department they carry in the cabin and are trained on Colt M4s.

Here's hoping nothing like this every happens again, and if it does it is put down judiciously.
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Old February 14, 2011, 10:00 AM   #149
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Folks are starting to rant a bit away from the tactics and to political issues in CA. Not relevant to this thread.

Keep on target, so to speak. Yeah, if you were there with a Civil War Sharps, you could have made the head shot - but you weren't.
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Old February 14, 2011, 08:33 PM   #150
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Everybody's an expert marksman......
until the targets are moving and shooting at them.
I don't think Rob Leatham could have gotten off a good shot during the incident.

Perhaps teh LAPD has integrated a force on force component into their training.
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