Let's discuss the North Hollywood shootout

[Double Naught Spy]

The snipers didn't arrive in time.

[Socrates]

Another alternative might have been one of these:


On a good day, I can hit a pie plate at 100 yards, with open sites. 525 grain cast bullet at 1350 fps, doesn't slow down much, and, hits with around rifle like energy. Energy of 2,125 foot-pounds for a 525 grain bullet at 1350 fps.

They penetrate 5-6 feet in cape buffalo, or asian buffalo. Also goes about 4 feet, 50 inches, in wet newsprint.
For comparison, a 338 Lapua with a 250 grain bullet, at 2900 fps went 32 inches in wet newsprint, and, a 454 Casull, using a much more shootable, 315 grain monometal hard flat nose went 49" in news print. While I can't promise they would have penetrated that armour, my best guess, and gut tell me they would have blown a big, fat hole all the way through both sides, and, the target.

A 3.2 pound FA 83 in .475 Linebaugh, or, the 500 Linebaugh, or 500 JRH, are both capable of being carried in a trunk, or on a belt, and, all it would take would be one well placed shot, and, the party would have been over.

How bad are L.A. restrictions on firearms carried in the trunk of a squad car? How restricted are the LAPD in choosing their own belt guns?

[Erik]

A search of the net reveals that, no surprise, the LAPD restricts its patrol officers to options off of a list; that list is relatively "standard," and will never include what you're suggesting. (However, in the interest of seeing more great photos typical of your posts, please keep on dreaming.)

This article from April 08 sums it up as well as the any I've been able to find:

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Sat...ns+of+the+LAPD

[Socrates]

Great link Erik, Thank you.

If they can carry old 45 Colt wheel guns, and, they are strong enough, and well taken care of, they can be capable of extraordinary accuracy, and penetration, with heavy 45 Colt loads.

Since you like pictures:




This old girl would put 260 grain HP's, at 1450 fps, or, 350 grain LFN's, at 1550 fps, into 2-3" at 100 yards, if you could. Similar, lighter loads, in a strong 45 Colt revolver, give you more effective reach, and penetration.
A 315 Grain monometal bullet, in 45 Colt, will go 4 feet in wetnewsprint...

[Double Naught Spy]

Dude, those aren't going through Level III body armor. The cops weren't trained well enough to make head shots at long ranges on moving targets, from non-standard shooting positions when said targets were returning full auto fire.

2-3" at 100 yards? Really? With iron sights? A lot of cops don't shoot 2-3" groups with AR15s at 100 yards, but you think they are going to do it with an iron sighted revolver? LOL!

Of course if the cops were fighting wet news print, I guess those revolvers would be plenty effective. Body armor is a bit tougher than wet news print.

[Socrates]

OO&: anybody that uses the term "dude" can't be much older then my last part of underwear, so, you'll have to provide a bit more evidence then your word, "DUDE".

[BillCA]

Now boys, let's play nice.

The point OO-Spy makes is valid. Most cops are not crack shots with standard service guns, despite what movies and television would have the public believe. Shooting at a moving object the size of a cantaloupe at anywhere from 50 to 125 yards is not an easy task. One might was well expect trainees to hit speeding clays with a handgun.

With respect to Socrates and his love of big-bore wrist-testers, the power of the cartridge is useless if you cannot make a hit. Think of the liability issues that come with using a heavy solid in urban areas. Think of city attorneys thinking about the liability. Think of the politicians thinking about the liability and political repercussions. It won't fly.

The only viable option open to the cops were head shots.

They were not equipped (with sidearms) to handle armored BG's with FA weapons.

Shotgun slugs were not available for long shots.

No rifles were available for long precision shots.

They were not trained in team-tactics to deal with highly aggressive (and armored) shooters.

Coordination between units or teams was poor and tactical advantages were not exploited.

If one arriving squad-car in five had a rifle with a reasonable rifleman, they may have been able to stop the incident much faster.

The rifle caliber probably would not matter as much as the capability to place a precision shot out to 200m. I'd think that any .223, .243, 6.5mm, .270, .308 or even a .30-30 round hitting above the shoulders would have neutralized the target.

At least one or two magazines of "special purpose" ammo should be available for their AR's or .308's. AP and AP-Tracer ammo would be suitable for this kind of incident.

Otherwise... continued discussion is just

[Socrates]

One thing I do remember is some police using a car as cover, when, to a 7.62 x 39, it's concealment, not cover.

One wonders if a light burst machine gun, focused at the BG's legs or feet would have fixed the target, and, made the end a bit quicker...

Select fire on a AR-15 in the trunk might be a real good idea, sometimes.

In general, do folks think hitting a moving target, head shot, at range, is easier with burst fire, within a M-16, or selective fire?

[Sarge]

Aimed, deliberate fire.

[snolden]

the other thing that i see lacking from the above posts is covering fire. There were a few officers that were injured badly and unable to move for the entire duration of this incident. If the officers had been even briefly taught (say 1-3 days) team tactics and some field of fire stuff they could have got the injured ones out sooner. Even from 125 yards their pistols are accurate for 2 shots/second covering fire. At the very least it would have been possible to distract the perps away from a point long enough to gain access to that point.

But the simple, most cost effective way to avert this the next time is a cheap semi or bolt rifle with a few days training.

I started putting an SKS in my trunk just because of the AAR i read on this incident. (i m not a police officer, but I would not mind loaning my sks to one if they needed it)

[Frontier509]

Quick answer
A chopper mounted mini gun would have made short work of the assailants.
Might not be a bad investment for the LAPD given the SoCal enviroment.
Advantages many, drawbacks few.

[Striker071]

Her is my .02 cents. Body armor.. most Body armor you can get is level IIIA ... trauma plates give you added protection in certain areas mainly center mass. Most handgun ammo will not penetrate Level IIIA armor. In this case a 223 round or two would have ended the incident rater quickly. During training I brought my FAL in 308 to the range we set up one of our vests that was being replace up on a target holder and I put about 6 rounds through the front and the back of the vest. We did that to show the class the importance of being aware of your cover situation if we encounter a person with a rifle. That is why LAPD now has some units with a M4 rifle in the trunk. Now the issue of sabot rounds in a shot gun... would they have the energy to penetrate the body armor at the standoff distance that was presented. Also You might be able to hit a target at the range with a pistol at 75 yards or more... but things change real quick when someone is sending lead your way as well...

[Double Naught Spy]

Now the issue of sabot rounds in a shot gun... would they have the energy to penetrate the body armor at the standoff distance that was presented.

Maybe. While a IIIa vest will stop most slugs and some sabot rounds at close range (20 yards), effectiveness is going to be lost with distance. There is one French sabot (I will have to look up the company name) that would be a good candidate, but it still would not be going through the plating that raised the vest strength to that of being a Level III in some areas.

I know, you are supposed to shoot them through the vest where there isn't any plating. That seems to be a really tough thing to do.

[BillCA]

Looking at the tests done on the Box o' Truth with shotgun slugs vs. a vest, I don't think anyone will enjoy being protected by the vest when the slug shoves their ribcage halfway down on their heart and lungs. That 5" to 6" depression in the clay backing is nothing to sneeze at.

The 12ga slug is a formidible projectile. That literal ton of energy has to go somewhere (in fact a 3" Winchester 1oz slug gives over 3000 ft-lbs). If the vest stops the slug that energy is very likely to knock your opponent to the ground like standing in front of a moving Buick.

Even if it only stuns your opponent for a few moments, one can only imagine what it would be like to be repeatedly struck by sledgehammer-like blows from several directions.

[JohnKSa]

I don't think anyone will enjoy being protected by the vest when the slug shoves their ribcage halfway down on their heart and lungs.

Soft armor vs. slug = injured target. Good quality hard armor vs slug = little to no effect.

If the vest stops the slug that energy is very likely to knock your opponent to the ground like standing in front of a moving Buick.

No it won't. Not even a .50BMG has the energy to "knock someone to the ground". I've seen it tested with a crash dummy of similar weight to a human and rigged to completely stop a .50BMG bullet fired at 10 feet. There was very little backward motion imparted to the dummy--certainly not enough to qualify as being "knocked to the ground".

[vox rationis]

No it won't. Not even a .50BMG has the energy to "knock someone to the ground". I've seen it tested with a crash dummy of similar weight to a human and rigged to completely stop a .50BMG bullet fired at 10 feet. There was very little backward motion imparted to the dummy--certainly not enough to qualify as being "knocked to the ground".

Yep, Newton taught us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the gun has enough power to shoot a bullet that will knock something/someone down, the shooter will be knocked down just as much, or hard, as the object/person being hit.

[Double Naught Spy]

Looking at the tests done on the Box o' Truth with shotgun slugs vs. a vest, I don't think anyone will enjoy being protected by the vest when the slug shoves their ribcage halfway down on their heart and lungs. That 5" to 6" depression in the clay backing is nothing to sneeze at.

Yes, well, that is part of the reason why the North Hollywood robbers had incorporated steel plates into their armor. A COM shot with a 12 ga wasn't going to be significantly more harmful than the pistol rounds as a result. Like I said, it is hard to aim between the plates, especially if you don't know where they are.

Also keep in mind that the two robbers were body builders, mildly medicated, and not doubt experiencing an adrenaline rush. Even without the steel plates, 12 ga impacts to the vest may not have phased them too much.

If the vest stops the slug that energy is very likely to knock your opponent to the ground like standing in front of a moving Buick.

Buicks must be small in California these days.

The bad guy might fall down as a physiological response to being impacted, but not because of kinetic energy transference, as already noted. By the same token, I have seen a 250 lb man "knocked down" by a racquetball, but the reality is he wasn't knocked down.

[nemoaz]

John and Son of Vlad, thanks for rebutting the old wives tales.

I find myself just shaking my head in disbelief.

[Socrates]

Yep, Newton taught us that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If the gun has enough power to shoot a bullet that will knock something/someone down, the shooter will be knocked down just as much, or hard, as the object/person being hit.

This gun hit me so hard I thought my shoulder was separated, and, that was through a big butt pad, not getting hit with a .510" caliber bullet.

600 grains, at 2150 fps gives you Energy of 6,160 foot-pounds for a 600 grain bullet at 2150 fps. Despite dummy testing, I can't help but think that you would at least be knocked back as much as I was if hit by this bullet.

By the way, I helped accuracy test the 450 grain, 1900 fps sabot, .45 caliber, from Ballistic Research INcorporated, in the early 80's. This sabot is now LEO only. It flattened deer, penetrated like crazy, and kicked like a mule. Energy wise, Energy of 3,608 foot-pounds for a 450 grain bullet at 1900 fps.

I'm not buying this won't go through steel plate, since it did when we tested it...
It was in fact, designed for just such situations...

[vox rationis]

600 grains, at 2150 fps gives you Energy of 6,160 foot-pounds for a 600 grain bullet at 2150 fps. Despite dummy testing, I can't help but think that you would at least be knocked back as much as I was if hit by this bullet.

Cool pictures.
I'm just amazed at the cannons you shoot..yowza
Well I'm no physics professor, but the right answer ought to be that an object that weighed as much as you do, would be hit as hard as your shoulder, and move as much, or little, as you did, if the bullet transferred all of its kinetic energy into the target (didn't overpenetrate). Nobody said that getting nailed with a big un' while wearing a vest wouldn't give you the mother of all bruising's

[JohnKSa]

The 50BMG has about twice that energy at the muzzle. I watched the original show and then watched the online video several times before it was removed (no doubt for copyright infringement.) The dummy moved backwards enough to be dislodged from the supports but then fell pretty much straight down. The bullet penetrated the armor plate installed in the chest but then stopped in the metal spine of the dummy so all of the momentum/energy of the bullet was expended in the impact.

[Double Naught Spy]

I'm not buying this won't go through steel plate, since it did when we tested it...
It was in fact, designed for just such situations...

What type of steel plate did you use? Did you use AR500 steel plate? If so, how thick? Or, did you just use some little piece of mild steel?

By the way, I helped accuracy test the 450 grain, 1900 fps sabot, .45 caliber, from Ballistic Research INcorporated, in the early 80's. This sabot is now LEO only.

Really, under what name is this LEO only uber round sold?

And do you have a photograph of your time machine? How did you like Australia?

http://www.ballisticsresearch.com/about.php

Ballistics Research, Inc., founded in 1999, is dedicated to the development and research of force protection and law enforcement tools, which enable projectile stopping, and the accurate and complete identification of fired handgun bullets, rifle bullets, and artillery shells. Careful scientific research, craftsmanship and investment has enabled Ballistics Research, Inc. to develop the best method of ballistic identification currently known, and the development and production of revolutionary projectile stopping units.

If they are an American company by the exact same name, they keep a very low profile. So where are they located?

[BillCA]

To clarify... The phsyiological reaction to a 12-gauge slug impact into soft body armor will most likely cause the recipient to go down. A heavy blow to the chest that compresses the ribs will be felt and knock the wind out of you at least.

Yes, well, that is part of the reason why the North Hollywood robbers had incorporated steel plates into their armor. A COM shot with a 12 ga wasn't going to be significantly more harmful than the pistol rounds as a result. Like I said, it is hard to aim between the plates, especially if you don't know where they are.

I'll grant you that steel plates will keep the subject from getting the full impact of the slugs. But it is unlikely that any subject would be covered with enough steel plates to absorb multiple slug hits from different directions.

Also keep in mind that the two robbers were body builders, mildly medicated, and not doubt experiencing an adrenaline rush. Even without the steel plates, 12 ga impacts to the vest may not have phased them too much.

I'll disagree here. A vest without plates will stop the slug, but the deformation of the body underneath, including compression of the ribs, can potentially stop the heart or cause bruising of the heart.

Had LAPD been able to deploy slugs with any accuracy, I think the shooters would have withdrawn faster. That said, I also think even if LAPD had slugs available, it would be a case of too few rounds available because the bean counters and policy hacks would only issue about 5 rounds per car.

[Powderman]

Had LAPD been able to deploy slugs with any accuracy, I think the shooters would have withdrawn faster. That said, I also think even if LAPD had slugs available, it would be a case of too few rounds available because the bean counters and policy hacks would only issue about 5 rounds per car.

I don't know about that--but I have exactly zero experience with testing vests. Now, if I had anything to do with it, I would issue these to supervisors for car and trunk carry. Politically correct enough to placate the bean counters and alarmists, pretty enough to not attract the attention of the naysayers--and plenty of power for just about any situation:

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...31&type_id=001

Give them some 5 or 10 round magazines, chamber it in .338, or one of the short mags and load with some match bullets--or even some JSP. Bring on the body armor!

[R1145]

It's easy to talk about headshots with your pistol when you don't have a guy blazing away at you with an AK. Usually, you respond to a call with very little information. The fog of war is thick and hindsight is 20/20.

I think the shootout was successfully resolved: Containment was established, the suspects didn't get away.

Massive firefights like this and, say, the Miami shootout, are so extremely rare, I'm not sure how many conclusions one can draw from them.

One positive effect is that the LAPD seems to have more rifles deployed in the field. Like it or not, I see the trend towards rifles replacing shotguns in police work, with shotguns dedicated to less-lethal munitions. I think it's a good thing.

I heard a story that the dramatic takedown of the second shooter that occurred when a car full of SWAT officers drove up to a car the shooter was behind. Apparently, it was an accident: They didn't realize he was there until they got very close.

The one who got the shooter was the car's driver, who came out of the car then skipped bullets from his MP-5 off the pavement, which took out the shooter's feet.