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September 14, 2007, 05:10 AM | #101 | |
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Pulling and shooting in the above scenarios might get you indicted. |
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September 14, 2007, 07:05 AM | #102 | |
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Don't EVER draw a weapon without being prepared to use it. It is stark foolishness to believe that merely flashing a gun will make a BG run away. That is an inherently DANGEROUS attitude to have. When you draw your weapon, you have just made a very big decision and you are now betting your life whether you are consciously aware of that or not at the time you do it. As experts like Massad Ayoub have said - when you make the decision to draw your weapon, the entire situation should be resolved in 3 seconds or less. Even police will tell you they are always mentally prepared to shoot when they draw. If you draw a gun thinking to threaten only, you're not giving your bet (stakes=your life) good odds to win on.
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If guns were outlawed, then only outlaws would have guns. Last edited by Cremon; September 14, 2007 at 08:02 AM. |
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September 14, 2007, 07:12 AM | #103 |
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I don't know threegun. If I draw my gun it is because I feel my life is in immediate danger. I know it's not impossible that the BG might see me draw a gun and drop to the floor with his hands out, but it doesn't seem a likely scenario. I practice drawing, racking the slide and firing in one smooth move, it happens very fast, not enough time, I hope, for the BG to make any move one way or another, that's the point.
Depending on circumstances I might give the BG time to escape before I draw. I might say something like I am armed and prepared to fire, get out now. |
September 14, 2007, 09:03 AM | #104 |
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Why does one have to rack the slide when ones draws?
Just gets better and better. Now we start the Israeli carry debate.
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September 14, 2007, 09:09 AM | #105 |
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In texas, it is your responsablity as a civilian to stop the comission of a felony by any means necessary, including the use of deadly force. If you see a felony beign comitted, try and place them under citizen's arrest (a great help to us LEOs) or shoot if necessary. It isn't attempted homicide if you shoot below the waist.
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September 14, 2007, 09:54 AM | #106 | |
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September 14, 2007, 10:14 AM | #107 | ||
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You're talking apples and oranges there is a huge difference between saying "when I draw my gun I will use deadly force" and "when I draw my gun I will be prepared to use deadly force."
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September 14, 2007, 10:23 AM | #108 |
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DGU, not DUG - sorry, Lurper - comes from grading exams.
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September 14, 2007, 10:32 AM | #109 | |
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If you're a gun flasher, you better HOPE like hell he falls for your bluff. Because if he doesn't, you are dead. Period. The Armed Citizen Solution - a professional guide to concealed weapon carrying priveded by the US Concealed Weapon Carry association - speaks volumes about the legality and suicidal dangers of gun flashing.
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September 14, 2007, 11:26 AM | #110 |
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NP Glenn, it comes from dyslexic typing. lol
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September 14, 2007, 12:42 PM | #111 | |
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Let me back up a bit so that you can get a better look at the entire picture. Drawing your weapon when you feel your life is threatened and not firing it is perfectly legal. There is nothing wrong with it, nor is it illegal. Needlessly displaying a firearm is. Saying that "drawing your weapon commits you to using lethal force" is akin to saying "if you draw your weapon, you must use it" (about every other class, there is a student who asks that very question). That is absolutely untrue. Moreover, having that mindset may cause some people to either hesistate drawing their weapon or think that they have to wait until the last possible second. Neither is true and both can be fatal. I think we can all agree that starting the confrontation with your gun in your hand is better than starting with it in your holster. As fast as I am, I would still rather have my gun in hand than in holster. Secondly, of the estimated 2.5 million DGU (better Glenn?) incidents annually, only between 20,000 and 80,000 (depending on whose figures you use) involve shots being fired. In the rest of the incidents (which I think we can all agree is the vast majority), the mere presence or mention of a firearm ends the confrontation. So, it is not stupid, nor illegal, unwise or necessarily a bluff provided the basic criteria of threat of death or serious bodily injury is present. |
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September 14, 2007, 12:49 PM | #112 | ||||||
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September 14, 2007, 01:02 PM | #113 | |||
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September 14, 2007, 01:53 PM | #114 | |
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If guns were outlawed, then only outlaws would have guns. |
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September 14, 2007, 03:04 PM | #115 | ||
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Your gun flashing might work sometimes. But counting on it every time is insane. There is no such thing as a Russian Roulette champion.
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September 14, 2007, 03:25 PM | #116 |
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Justme,
I once had to draw my weapon on a customer who I believed was about to rob the shop where I work. As this bad guy began to reach into his trench coat in the area normally associate with a shoulder holster I decided to respond. As I began my draw pistol I noticed that the bad guy was pulling a gun from his coat. As I climbed his body with my front sight and began to depress the trigger (on my Glock) I realized that the pistol he was pulling was in fact a bb gun. In the span of 1/2 second (my draw speed back then) I was able to both note the type of gun (it was really big at that moment LOL) and stop from pulling the rest of the trigger. My point is you have time. I would have been justified as this dim bulb actually pointed the bb gun at my partner. He was trying to scare my partner. Thankfully I was able to stop and reholster my gun. |
September 14, 2007, 04:10 PM | #117 |
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I would like to think I could stop if the situation changed, I am not at all sure I would be able to. I once crushed a guy's windpipe in a bar(an NCO club in England actually) because he insulted my then wife, to this day I don't remember making any concious decision, but my hand snapped up and I grabbed the guys throat. That is why I do not draw until I deem that the situation calls for firing, I'm not sure where my mental processes stop and muscle memory takes over. It's one thing to strangle a guy who probably deserved it(in all fairness my first wife was a whore so...), quite another to shoot someone.
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September 16, 2007, 01:41 AM | #118 |
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Blinded by anger isn't the same as reacting to a life and death threat. I didn't have time for emotions until it was over.
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September 16, 2007, 02:10 AM | #119 |
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Fear is an emotion too, just as strong as anger I would suspect. Like I said, I would like to think I could stop myself, but who knows. I have had car accidents from reacting too slowly to something like a person in front of me stopping suddenly. I had enough time to stop but my brain just couldn't believe that the nimrod in front of me actually slammed on the brakes.
Anyway, my point is that when I draw it is with every intent to shoot, therefore I don't draw until I have made the decision to also pull the trigger. While I would make every attempt to stop myself if the situation changed during my draw, I am not at all sure I would be able to. I wonder if this is a case where less practice is actually better? If you practice drawing and firing often enough that it becomes second nature do you also increase the chance that you wouldn't be able to stop yourself firing if you register something amiss? There are enough stories about cops who accidently shot kids with squirt guns and bbguns and such to make me worry that an inexperienced person like myself could easily make such a mistake. |
September 16, 2007, 11:19 AM | #120 | |
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But that doesn't mean less practice is better! It means you need more practice than you believe, and it means you have to actually think when you practice. Any responsible training program incorporates "Shoot/Don't Shoot" decision-making as part of the training material. In addition to regularly practice draw and fires just as quickly as you can go, it is also a good idea to regularly practice drawing to low ready, assessing the situation, and then raising the gun to fire quickly only if the situation demands (you can have a friend give you a "shoot" or "don't shoot" verbalization to simulate this). Similarly, most professional firearms instructors suggest students do not practice a simple Tap-Rack-Bang as the immediate action drill, instead using Tap-Rack-(assess and)-Bang -- with the part in parentheses being a very, very quick assessment of the target to see if it still needs to be shot (and it takes place while you are tapping and racking, so to an observer it looks about the same ... but don't leave that assessment out because the situation can change radically in just that split second it takes to clear a jam). It is very irresponsible to tell people that they must fire every time they touch their holstered gun. This is simplistic and easy to train and completely incongruent with reality. In reality: you'd better not draw unless you are emotionally and legally prepared to shoot if it becomes necessary. When you draw, you must be able to articulate, in a court of law, why you felt it was necessary to draw the gun. And if you shoot, you must be able to articulate how your life was in danger at the moment you pulled the trigger. All of this is far more complex than most folks are prepared to accept, which is why conversations like this so often devolve into mere sloganeering. KISS, right? But ... it ain't simple, and you ain't stupid. pax The most dangerous untruths are the truths moderately distorted. -- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg |
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September 16, 2007, 12:06 PM | #121 | |
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Again, it is much faster and smarter to have the gun in your hand when the confrontation starts if possible. |
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September 16, 2007, 12:15 PM | #122 |
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A logical conundrum occurs to me with the door scenario. What if there is a threat and you don't have a holstered handgun?
You have a long arm. Are you compelled to shoot if you pick it up and look for the target? It's not holstered. BTW, if you really crush a windpipe, do you kill someone and go to jail for it as it is inappropriate for an insult? In TX, if you respond with force for an insult, it is not taken kindly to by the law. Still waiting on racking the slide on the draw - such a trouble maker, I'm!
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September 16, 2007, 12:27 PM | #123 | |
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September 16, 2007, 12:44 PM | #124 |
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Drawing Your Weapon + Robbery in THIS Locality
I think the "drawing weapon" question is also one of practicality: once it's out you're much more likely to use it out of an instinctive reaction. Is that bad? NO in some situations 'cause the time saved in not needing to draw will save you; in others, it will get you to shoot when you shouldn't and indicted.
When a family (most were attorneys) opened a restaurant/bar as a side business many years ago in my city, some cops came in to greet them and talk about security over a few cold ones. Cops told them: "If you're getting robbed: shoot him. If it turns out he didn't have a gun, he will have after we examine the crime scene" |
September 16, 2007, 12:53 PM | #125 | ||||
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"These data indicate that victims who use guns for self-protection actually face less favorable circumstances than other victims, and that the post-self-protection injury rates for defensive gun use, low though they are, may still be misleadingly high compared to tother self-protection measures because victims who used guns faced tougher crime circumstances. More dangerous situations apparently prompt victims to adopt more dangerous self-protection measures. Two pieces of information available in the NCVS support this view. First, victims who used guns were substantially more likely than victims in general or victims using other self-protection measures to face offenders armed with guns — 32.7 percent of victims who attacked the offender with a gun, and 21.8 percent of those who threatened the offender with a gun, and 21.8 percent of those who threatened the offender with a gun, faced offenders with guns, compared to only 6.8 percent of all victims who used self-protection measures, and 2.2 percent of all victims. Second, victims who used guns were more likely to face multiple offenders — 33.2 percent of victims who attacked offenders with a gun and 34.5 percent of those who threatened with a gun confronted multiple adversaries, compared to 20.6 percent of all those who used self-protection measures, and 6.2 percent of all victims. These findings are consistent with the view that crime circumstances likely to appear more dangerous to victims are more likely to push victims into using guns. They are contrary to the speculation that crime outcomes are better for gun-wielding victims merely because other circumstances of the crime made successful outcomes more likely." (pp. 291-92) Quote:
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