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Old October 22, 2020, 05:03 PM   #76
AK103K
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
So I’m confused a bit. From what you said previously I gathered the policy is that the firearm must remain concealed and the fellow parishioners can’t know. You’re saying that even if that was true and another security member judged your pistol too large you’d still be in trouble? In that case there should be exact size specifications in terms of what you can carry (or at least a lot more than what has been suggested thus far), otherwise it seems extremely arbitrary and how are you ever supposed to know if you “comply”? If we had those specifications recommendations would be a lot easier.


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Im confused too. If youre doing your part, no one will know you have the gun on, and no matter what it is.

And who gets the right to tell you what to carry?

Ive carried in NPE's for most of my life, and stood in a couple of different police chiefs offices, in a pair of jeans and my comapany uniform shirt, wearing a full sized hand gun (1911, SIG P226, etc) I wasnt supposed to have on, and he never had a clue, nor did any of the other cops I interacted with headed to his office.

Ive also had quite a few conversations with people, inlaws, people in gun shops, work, etc, face to face, a couple of feet apart, and was told I couldnt possibly carry a full sized gun wearing what I was wearing, while I was doing exactly that, and right in front of them.

This isnt rocket science, nor is it hard to do. You just have to "want" to do it, and youll figure out a way. Dont listen to the nay sayers, or let those who think they are, and/or want to be in charge of you, tell you what to do. You do what you think is best for you, and let them find their own way.

As I said earlier, personally, Ive always tried to carry the gun I shoot best with in regular practice, and allows me the best chance to deal with as many possible things that may come up. Why in the world would you limit yourself, needlessly, if you dont have to?

Id be willing to bet, with a little work on your part, you can easily figure out how to hide and carry the gun you were told you couldnt possibly carry, and do so right in front of the person who told you that.

And theres a LOT of satisfaction in doing just that too.

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Old October 22, 2020, 05:04 PM   #77
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Best pistol for childrens church security

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Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE View Post
Not "knowing" level of concealment is the goal. The policy adopted to achieve that goal went overboard to the level of "maximum concealment" in a pistol format. The policy was going to be basically pocket pistols, but our head of security had to fight for raising the bar to the level of still having a full grip, on the argument that more accuracy was needed than what could be offered by a "pocket pistol". Again, this is all second hand. I wasn't in the meeting and have no power over policies. This stuff in on the advice of my pastor and head of security. We met and they told me, as second in charge and head of the childrens church area, I could adjust some of the procedures as needed for children's church, but that I needed to go as small as I could on my side arm while still having a full grip. It is VERY arbitrary, but I think I'm fine as long as it seems an effort was made. My head of security suggested that any single stack subcompact is probably going to be fine. I didn't get this specific with the story because I didn't think I needed to just to get some product reviews.

I totally get a lot of this is beyond your control. I’m just trying to figure out what parameters might be known so I can actually make a meaningful suggestion.

Full grip is still pretty vague. Like, I can get a full grip on something like a Glock 19, but others have bigger hands that make that hard and for them they need a Glock 17 for a full grip. Full grips in single stacks aren’t particularly common unless we’re talking about Commander sized 1911s.

That being said if it has to be a single stack and you want DA/SA I think the XDe, P239 (might not give you a full grip depending on your hand size), or some of the older S&W semiautomatics might work. It’s hard because DA/SA or true DAO aren’t as popular these days so there aren’t as many options with that manual of arms, but that’s what comes to mind. I would say, and this is me being biased, the HK P2000 or P2000sk are surprisingly svelte if you get a chance to look at one. I don’t have anything against the PX4 line, but it’s rather thick.


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Old October 22, 2020, 05:07 PM   #78
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That is getting you into deep concealment from your alleged allies.
Not knowing how you are wired, but I'd consider a shoulder holster under the shirt or one of those holster undershirts for a medium pistol. Ken Null will even make a white shoulder rig to reduce printing.
Would a "tuckable" IWB do? Thunderware?
If even deeper hiding is necessary, you are down to a pocket pistol in a pocket or ankle rig.
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:12 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
I totally get a lot of this is beyond your control. I’m just trying to figure out what parameters might be known so I can actually make a meaningful suggestion.

Full grip is still pretty vague. Like, I can get a full grip on something like a Glock 19, but others have bigger hands that make that hard and for them they need a Glock 17 for a full grip. Full grips in single stacks aren’t particularly common unless we’re talking about Commander sized 1911s.

That being said if it has to be a single stack and you want DA/SA I think the XDe, P239 (might not give you a full grip depending on your hand size), or some of the older S&W semiautomatics might work. It’s hard because DA/SA or true DAO aren’t as popular these days so there aren’t as many options with that manual of arms, but that’s what comes to mind. I would say, and this is me being biased, the HK P2000 or P2000sk are surprisingly svelte if you get a chance to look at one. I don’t have anything against the PX4 line, but it’s rather thick.


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Thank you, the xde and p239 have been recommended by several people here so I'm going to look into them. The p2000sk I've heard of, but also heard its big for a single stack. I'll look into it.
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:14 PM   #80
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And who gets the right to tell you what to carry?
The person who has responsibility for the property and the team? How is that hard to understand?

Just because it's unpaid doesn't mean that he doesn't have a boss and doesn't have to follow rules. The boss has told him how to operate and given him boundaries within which he must operate. As with any job, he could choose not to "work there" and then he wouldn't have to follow that boss' rules.
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And theres a LOT of satisfaction in doing just that too.
That makes sense. However, if the goal of basically giving people in authority the finger isn't paramount, you can see how following the rules provided might rise a little higher on the list of priorities.

By the way, I usually try to avoid the "I can carry a bigger gun than you can because _______" arguments (fill in the blank with whatever--I'm smarter, I care less about printing, I'm more security conscious. ) For one thing, it would take getting everyone in the argument together in a room to really verify what different people mean by concealment, what different people mean by a normal range of activities, for people to see that not everyone is built the same way they are, for people to understand that not everyone is free to choose their mode of dress with the same leeway they are, that not everyone can manage the same level of discomfort that they feel is reasonable, etc., etc.

That all said, it is worth noting that simply carrying is not really what this is about. It's about carrying in a specific environment and maintaining perfect concealment throughout the entire process.

If you've ever had a kid run up to you to hug you and smack their head on your carry gun, you will know why the kind of people you are carrying around can make a difference. If you've ever had someone put an arm around you and feel your carry gun, you'll understand.

If you've ever tried to figure out what to do with a gun while using the restroom because it's too heavy/large to leave on your belt during the process, you'll understand why someone who can go lock themselves into a room by themselves every time they need to go to the bathroom has more concealment leeway than someone who has to use a public restroom sometimes.

If you've ever had a gun unconceal when reaching up for something or bending over and sitting and you can't wear a cover garment long enough to qualify as a short dress, then it might make sense why someone who can't just stand still or walk around without bending/reaching/sitting is more restricted in terms of what they can conceal and/or how hard they must work to conceal.

If you can't wear loose/baggy/casual clothing, you will probably understand why those who have a lot of leeway in that area can conceal more easily and can conceal larger firearms.

Finally, I think by now we all know that some people are just plain superheroes when it comes to concealing. They can always conceal a full-sized, full-weight pistol and several magazines for it regardless of what manner of dress they are restricted to, no matter who they are around, no matter what kind of activity they have to do, etc.

I think we also know that in practice, most non-superhero concealers find that they are sometimes forced to tailor their carry gun to the situation.
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:17 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE View Post
Thank you, the xde and p239 have been recommended by several people here so I'm going to look into them. The p2000sk I've heard of, but also heard its big for a single stack. I'll look into it.

Yeah the reason I hesitated on it is because it’s actually a double stack. It’s skinny for a double stack, but it’s outside of the actual recommendations so that’s why I held off on fully endorsing it.


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Old October 22, 2020, 05:32 PM   #82
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Best pistol for childrens church security

I consider the right to self defense a fundamental right. At the same time, I also think people and organizations have rights to set limitations on what is private property. If I don’t agree with those limitations I generally don’t patronize the establishment. In this case it seems like the OP cares about the people in this church, wants to help protect them, and doesn’t want to disrespect the wishes of church leadership and one of those wishes that has been conveyed to him directly, if maybe not clearly, is size limitations.

I’m not going to suggest the OP just disregard what you’ve been told. I think that could have a negative impact in the end. I might suggest trying to convince the church to relax those restrictions over time as the program shows itself to be successful (hopefully).

I do agree that larger firearms can be concealed easier than many people realize, and it sounds like the OP knows that too, which was my point before. Best of luck to the OP.


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Old October 22, 2020, 05:38 PM   #83
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The person who has responsibility for the property and the team? How is that hard to understand?

Just because it's unpaid doesn't mean that he doesn't have a boss and doesn't have to follow rules. The boss has told him how to operate and given him boundaries within which he must operate. As with any job, he could choose not to "work there" and then he wouldn't have to follow that boss' rules.
Most "rules" are there to benefit those who make them, not those who have to follow them.

What I have a problem with and understanding is, how do their rules supercede my safety, especially if they arent willing to guarentee my safety, if I disarm, and I follow thier rules, and something goes wrong.

Been through this with a couple of companys and their HR/lawyers and the answer always was, thats the rules, and as you said, you can leave if you dont like them. Normal wordage in most company manuals prohibits ANY kind of weapons, and their answers were the normal response to the question too.

They also told me that they were not responsible if something were to go wrong, so, if I follow their rules Im screwed, if I dont, at least I have a chance, but Im still screwed, as far as the job goes anyway.

By the way, each time I was in the office with HR and the lawyers, I was wearing the same gun I was wearing in the CoP's office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
That makes sense. However, if the goal of basically giving people in authority the finger isn't paramount, you can see how following the rules provided might rise a little higher on the list of priorities.
It looks like we have different priorities.

The goal wast the finger, it was/is my safety. If they arent willing to provide that, and in the next breath, deprive me of it, then yea, they get a wink and the finger.

Doom on me if I get caught.

On the other hand, its been about 45 some odd years now of daily carry, everywhere and anywhere, and so far, no "doom".
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:42 PM   #84
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How sure are you, in case something happened and you had to use your weapon to wound or kill a threat, that you would receive support from the church leadership and members?

You used words to the effect that the rules are that no one can know that armed protection is present. In other words, people might object to the whole idea.

Self defense and defense of others uses of lethal force can be open to a great deal of contentious conflict, involving people who not only have no experience or knowledge of it, but are psychologically disposed to blaming any user of force for any and all results.

You don't want to find yourself in some kind of jackpot, with people you intended to protect, walking away from you.
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:46 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
I consider the right to self defense a fundamental right. At the same time, I also think people and organizations have rights to set limitations on what is private property. If I don’t agree with those limitations I generally don’t patronize the establishment. In this case it seems like the OP cares about the people in this church, wants to help protect them, and doesn’t want to disrespect the wishes of church leadership and one of those wishes that has been conveyed to him directly, if maybe not clearly, is size limitations.

I’m not going to suggest the OP just disregard what you’ve been told. I think that could have a negative impact in the end. I might suggest trying to convince the church to relax those restrictions over time as the program shows itself to be successful (hopefully).

I do agree that larger firearms can be concealed easier than many people realize, and it sounds like the OP knows that too, which was my point before. Best of luck to the OP.


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I appreciate that. And your point hasn’t been wasted even if I can’t implement it in this situation. Ive decided I’m going to put some of the things y’all have mentioned to use in edc, just as an experiment on how concealed I can get with my full sizes.
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Old October 22, 2020, 05:46 PM   #86
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Sig P 365--& be happy !!!
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Old October 22, 2020, 06:00 PM   #87
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Most "rules" are there to benefit those who make them, not those who have to follow them.
IT DOESN'T MATTER. If it's their game they get to make the rules. If you want to play their game you have to follow their rules or pay the consequences for violating them if you get caught. If you don't want to follow their rules, don't play their game--that's your choice.
Quote:
What I have a problem with and understanding is, how do their rules supercede my safety...
If you decide you want to play their game then you agree to their rules. If he's going to be on the security team, he follows the rules. Simple as that. He can opt out of the rules by not being on the security team.
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Been through this with a couple of companys and their HR/lawyers and the answer always was, thats the rules, and as you said, you can leave if you dont like them.
Right. That's how it works.
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It looks like we have different priorities.
Not just that.

Clearly you had no respect for the wishes or rules of the people or organizations you were involved with. The OP's situation is different.

It's not always just about you. Sometimes people are willing to make sacrifices for things they feel are bigger/more important than themselves.
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Old October 22, 2020, 06:17 PM   #88
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I really dont see it being any different. I dont have any respect for anyone that requires me to follow thier rules and wishes if they are contrary to what I consider my safety.

If they require me to sacrifice, then let me decide how I do it. Im very suspect of those who tell me they know better and I should do as Im told. They usually dont, and I usually dont.

Or, do I just do as Im told, and put that vest packed with semtex on and run into some other crowd.


At the OP.... do what you feel is best for you. Thats the best you can do.

Just dont short change yourself unnecessarily. And dont count on your back being covered either. RAfiringline has a very valid point.
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Old October 22, 2020, 06:31 PM   #89
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The more the OP posts, the more ???? it raises.

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tipoc .....Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?
Spot on.



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CAPMJUSTICE ...... And for the record, I came here for what amounts to a "product review". If you think me asking this question here amounts to asking for marching orders, then you clearing overestimate your value, and it clearly explains why you're seeking validation by posting the way you are.
This is what strikes me as odd about this thread.....if you are "trained" it usually means you have significantly more experience with firearms than the average man on the street and selection of the handgun would be a no brainer. The way your question was phrased in the OP didn't lead me to believe you had any training or experience either.


You are concerned about overpenetration, being unable to properly conceal your handgun and if printing the reaction of other members of your congregation. All valid concerns, but if you are as well trained as you believe, you would surely know that .380 is often faulted as an under penetrating round. And being well trained means you are aware of the limitations of small pocket pistols, blowback actions and greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to others.

Your choice of clothing impacts what method of carry, what type of holster and what type or size of handgun. Telling the forum what you wear to church would be helpful.

"Printing" is 99% YOUR fear, 1% "what's that bulge?". Unless you wear lycra shirts two sizes too small its unlikely that any other churchgoer will notice a handgun sized bulge. If they do observe the bulge, the majority will assume its a cellphone, a diabetics belt bag or Depends.

If your Sunday dress is a coat or jacket.....you could hide any handgun OWB.
If your Sunday dress is a polo or sport shirt, wear it untucked and IWB.
You could also go with a holster that doesn't look like a holster: https://sneakypeteholsters.com/

Quote:
CAPMJUSTICE
....But let me run a situation by you....but then when I'm putting on or taking off my com's and ear piece after church in the security office and while adjusting my wardrobe to do so a fellow security member, the head of security, or the pastor see's that I have not complied and kicks me off the security team and finds someone who will comply, or worse, it gets back to the board and gives them more reservations about having armed security at all right after they were just dipping their toe into starting one.
Complied with what? Having a 9mm/.40/.45? or that when you are in the office they see your gun?
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Old October 22, 2020, 06:34 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by RAfiringline View Post
How sure are you, in case something happened and you had to use your weapon to wound or kill a threat, that you would receive support from the church leadership and members?

You used words to the effect that the rules are that no one can know that armed protection is present. In other words, people might object to the whole idea.

Self defense and defense of others uses of lethal force can be open to a great deal of contentious conflict, involving people who not only have no experience or knowledge of it, but are psychologically disposed to blaming any user of force for any and all results.

You don't want to find yourself in some kind of jackpot, with people you intended to protect, walking away from you.
Our church is doing it the right way. Insurance and all that. I’m sure some of the people might be upset to find out, hence the focus on concealment, but the security team would be legally protected .... so long as the security team member involved was following the proper rules and procedures.
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Old October 22, 2020, 06:49 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dogtown tom View Post
The more the OP posts, the more ???? it raises.


Spot on.




This is what strikes me as odd about this thread.....if you are "trained" it usually means you have significantly more experience with firearms than the average man on the street and selection of the handgun would be a no brainer. The way your question was phrased in the OP didn't lead me to believe you had any training or experience either.


You are concerned about overpenetration, being unable to properly conceal your handgun and if printing the reaction of other members of your congregation. All valid concerns, but if you are as well trained as you believe, you would surely know that .380 is often faulted as an under penetrating round. And being well trained means you are aware of the limitations of small pocket pistols, blowback actions and greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to others.

Your choice of clothing impacts what method of carry, what type of holster and what type or size of handgun. Telling the forum what you wear to church would be helpful.

"Printing" is 99% YOUR fear, 1% "what's that bulge?". Unless you wear lycra shirts two sizes too small its unlikely that any other churchgoer will notice a handgun sized bulge. If they do observe the bulge, the majority will assume its a cellphone, a diabetics belt bag or Depends.

If your Sunday dress is a coat or jacket.....you could hide any handgun OWB.
If your Sunday dress is a polo or sport shirt, wear it untucked and IWB.
You could also go with a holster that doesn't look like a holster: https://sneakypeteholsters.com/


Complied with what? Having a 9mm/.40/.45? or that when you are in the office they see your gun?
As I said before I’m trained full size combat arms, not pocket 380s. I don’t shoot them. These ???? You are so concerned about are irrelevant to just getting some product reviews. Do I have to submit a resume just to get a product review? Fine, my background is military, not civilian gun enthusiast. I know tactics, combat, and procedures. I’m lacking firearm knowledge that didn’t have to do with military service. I was trained on the beretta, have carried a 226 for several years. I have the army commendation medal with valor for combat operations in Iraq. I scored expert in pistol, machine gun, rifle, and grenade courses. I’m known for my awareness and by the book procedure following and that is why I was asked to serve on security.
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Old October 22, 2020, 07:04 PM   #92
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Thank you, the xde and p239 have been recommended by several people here so I'm going to look into them. The p2000sk I've heard of, but also heard its big for a single stack. I'll look into it.
I own an XDe.

With the extended mag it provides a full grip even for a big hand and is still easy to conceal.

The extended mag also expands the capacity to 9+1. Good capacity for a 1" wide single stack.
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Old October 22, 2020, 07:16 PM   #93
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Quote:
have carried a 226 for several years.
Great. Sig made a whole lineup of guns with the same operating system.
You can work your way down the size scale until you find concealabilty.
I hope you can get there before you reach the Japanese contract .32.

Time to turn off the computer and shoot some guns.
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Old October 22, 2020, 07:48 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE View Post
Our church is doing it the right way. Insurance and all that. I’m sure some of the people might be upset to find out, hence the focus on concealment, but the security team would be legally protected .... so long as the security team member involved was following the proper rules and procedures.
Yeah.
Spend some time researching what happened to George Zimmerman in Florida. At the start, the police chief found it to be a valid self defense shooting. Then Sharpton and other leftist political activists showed up and the chief resigned, and Zimmerman (who may be a small part African American himself) became a victim of fear politics from politicos reacting to frightened voters.

The Zimmerman case was really not a close call, the police had it right at the beginning. You better know what you're doing and who you're depending on, because it has gotten a lot worse.
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Old October 22, 2020, 08:08 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by CAPMJUSTICE
Thank you, the xde and p239 have been recommended by several people here so I'm going to look into them. The p2000sk I've heard of, but also heard its big for a single stack. I'll look into it.
The Sig P239 doesn’t have a safety which I thought that was the first thing listed on your criteria? If a safety is not required, does that open up the options to other guns? The Sig 365XL could fit the bill nicely. The Glock 43X has the Glock 19 sized frame with the slim and short Glock43 slide. It holds 10+1 rounds. If safeties are not required, I would also suggest you look at the Springfield Armory Hellcat. It is almost the same size as the Glock 43, but holds 11+1 with the flush fitting mag, amid 13+1 with the extended mag (included). I carry with the 11 round mag in the gun, plus 2 of the 13 round mags.

You mentioned Kahr, but I am not a fan due to the long trigger. The insides are also not as corrosion resistant as other guns, and mine rusted almost to the point it would not fire after sweating all over it (post Hurricane Irma). The longer pull and long reset makes longer distance shots harder and follow up shots slower. I also see no point in going down to .380 acp when there are so many great 9mm pistols that are almost the same size. You also mentioned the Walther PPKS. The German ones are decent, but the American made ones have a bad rep. It is still too heavy for a .380 6 shot. There are so many better choices with polymer guns that are lighter.

I understand that your church may have people who are uncomfortable with guns, but not announcing armed security could lead to “friendly fire” situations. Other parishioners may be armed and think that a designated armed security team member may be a threat. You and the security lead may be much better trained than other parishioners.

Good luck and take the advice and comments with a grain of salt. It is a public forum with varying degrees of knowledge and backgrounds. My pastor asked if I cared and I told him I did. He said “good”. I’m not sure if we are ready for an armed security team, but I don’t believe there are too many others that carry.
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Old October 22, 2020, 08:26 PM   #96
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The Sig P239 doesn’t have a safety which I thought that was the first thing listed on your criteria? If a safety is not required, does that open up the options to other guns? The Sig 365XL could fit the bill nicely. The Glock 43X has the Glock 19 sized frame with the slim and short Glock43 slide. It holds 10+1 rounds. If safeties are not required, I would also suggest you look at the Springfield Armory Hellcat. It is almost the same size as the Glock 43, but holds 11+1 with the flush fitting mag, amid 13+1 with the extended mag (included). I carry with the 11 round mag in the gun, plus 2 of the 13 round mags.

You mentioned Kahr, but I am not a fan due to the long trigger. The insides are also not as corrosion resistant as other guns, and mine rusted almost to the point it would not fire after sweating all over it (post Hurricane Irma). The longer pull and long reset makes longer distance shots harder and follow up shots slower. I also see no point in going down to .380 acp when there are so many great 9mm pistols that are almost the same size. You also mentioned the Walther PPKS. The German ones are decent, but the American made ones have a bad rep. It is still too heavy for a .380 6 shot. There are so many better choices with polymer guns that are lighter.

I understand that your church may have people who are uncomfortable with guns, but not announcing armed security could lead to “friendly fire” situations. Other parishioners may be armed and think that a designated armed security team member may be a threat. You and the security lead may be much better trained than other parishioners.

Good luck and take the advice and comments with a grain of salt. It is a public forum with varying degrees of knowledge and backgrounds. My pastor asked if I cared and I told him I did. He said “good”. I’m not sure if we are ready for an armed security team, but I don’t believe there are too many others that carry.
Sorry I meant “safety” as an issue not the mechanical “manual safety”, though as I said I do prefer Da/sa or at least da. I know shorter triggers offer a potential accuracy benefit but I’m familiar and trained with the DA trigger so I’m not afraid of it and appreciate the extra layer of “safety” they offer. I certainly hear you on the “friendly fire” thing. Something I think about a lot while I’m serving. Though I might would face the same problem whether I’m on security or not. If something happens I’ll just have to do my best.
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Old October 22, 2020, 08:59 PM   #97
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I had a crazy idea when they were talking about arming teachers after the Marjorie Stoneman Douglass school shooting. If there are. Bunch of armed teachers, how do responding officers know who the threat is. There is no way for them to know all the teachers in all the schools.

That gave me the idea of a color coded sash with the church name and security team on it. While a vest would be ideal, you can’t pull one on that quickly, especially when responding to a threat. I’m thinking maybe some kind of rolled up ribbon that has church security might reduce the chance of being mistake as a threat. This would have to be quick to deploy and discreet to carry.

Thanks for clarifying about the “safety” requirement. Please let us know what you decide to go with. Try and rent whatever you are interested in. Gun availability has been very scarce in many places. Getting to handle a bunch of different guns in a gun store is not so easy anymore.
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Old October 23, 2020, 11:30 AM   #98
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^ we wear a lanyard with identification, but plan is to be holstered when LEO enters.


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Old October 23, 2020, 03:07 PM   #99
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Old October 23, 2020, 03:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426 View Post
I had typed out a long reply and the login timed out. Ugh.

As some have mentioned, some churches are fairly large so I would say go with a compact gun or full size of you can conceal it. The longer sight radius will allow for better precision and is more controllable. Size should not be a concern as long as the gun is fully concealed.

You did not mention what the typical “dress code” is for the church. If you wear a suit, you can hide just about anything. There is a holster called Urban Carry that sits inside of your pants. They claim that you can carry a full-sized gun and access it very quickly. With loo3ser fitting dark colored pants, you could easily conceal a larger weapon.

I would go with 9mm as it is more controllable and has greater mag capacity. You should obviously go with good quality hollow point ammo to reduce over penetration and “stop the threat more effectively”.

I would consider a light/laser combo or a laser at a minimum. While some people feel they are overrated, I feel they may be beneficial for longer range shots or visual confirmation of where you are aiming, while keeping your eyes on the threat.

As for your choice of weapon, there are multiple guns that fit the bill. For me, I would choose one that I can shoot well and still carry fairly comfortably. So let’s list all the guns that meet your criteria:

Beretta PX4 Storm Compact
CZ P07
Heckler & Koch P30
Heckler & Koch USP Compact
Springfield Armory XD-E
Smith & Wesson M&P 9 M2.0

All of these have manual safeties. If that is negotiable, you can add the Glock 19 and Walter PPQ.
I agree with the caliber recommendation, the list of guns here, and the fact that a suit jacket or blazer is very forgiving for concealed carry. Any combination there can work beautifully with a nice leather IWB holster.

I don't agree with the light and laser recommendation. I understand the arguments in favor of these things but for real-life civilian defensive encounters both seem a little iffy. It's extra stuff and extra complication. In my experience, lasers do have value as a training tool. As far as lights, I believe in carrying an EDC flashlight. It's very useful for a very wide variety of things. Having a light married to your gun means carrying a second light and pointing your gun wherever you shine it.

As far as the Urban Carry goes, don't bother. I looked into one of these and it was a hard pass. Coincidentally, this guy came to the same conclusions I did. If you aren't familiar, Active Self Protection is an excellent YouTube channel that looks at real-life defensive encounters caught on video. It's a valuable resource for anyone interested in these sorts of topics. This is the secondary discussion channel for the trainer and commentator on Active Self Protection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUvpH1u3c-0
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