Why Not a Blue Gun?

[Model12Win]

Hello all. Well I'm sure some of you have heard... during a recent police training seminar, a woman was shot and killed on accident by an officer during a shoot/no shoot session. Here is a story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ce-simulation/

Now I've seen a lot of questions. Why was the gun loaded? Why didn't the officer check to see if it was loaded before using it? Why did he pull the trigger?

But my question is: why was an actual service pistol used in this training session at all? Why not a blue dummy gun or similar training pistol? Even an airsoft pistol? Is using an actual live service pistol in these types of training scenarios widespread? What makes that superior to using a dummy gun, even a $15 airsoft pistol from Wal-Mart?

It just makes no sense to me that a live handgun was being used for this event, and seems a really bad idea to ever use a real gun for training when said gun will be pointed at other people with trigger manipulation and all.

Thoughts?

[Minorcan]

I can't imagine how the trainer must feel and this is not an attack on him but I agree with your thoughts. There were so many opportunities to avoid even the possibility of this happening. I think back to my Dad's first commandment when handling a gun;

"Never, I mean NEVER, point any gun at person unless you have to kill them ... period!"

I know we want the training to be realistic but there must be some common sense applied.

[Sharkbite]

I have used real firearms in FoF training. I ALWAYS disable the gun before it goes into a scenario.

AR's have the BCG removed as an example.

[armedleo]

I shake my head in both disbelief and shame. How many things must've gone wrong coupled with missed opportunities to prevent this from happening?

Real guns? Yeah. With real police. But not role playing with a citizen participating in a citizens' academy or other training seminar.

This is another senseless killing attributed to firearms along with a black eye for police. Shameful.

Even using blanks presents potential danger. I had to investigate a training injury in which the officer fired his Remington 870 loaded with blanks but discharged way too close to the "bad guy" officer playing his opposite. Both hands up to the elbow were badly burned.

[Onward Allusion]

Someone screwed up on that one. The one's I've attended have always been with Blue guns when civilians were present. Their chief said it was a horrible accident, er - I don't think so!

[T. O'Heir]

"...Why not a blue dummy gun or similar training pistol?..." Costs money. So do blanks(for which there is likely no budget at all) and blanks require either a BFA or a modified firearm.
Question is why was there live ammo anywhere near a "simulation"?

[1-DAB]

don't point a gun at someone you don't want to shoot.

don't let someone point a gun at you unless you want to get shot.

don't even point 'fake, inert, blue, training' guns at people. just don't do it.

treat all guns as loaded......

[TXAZ]

^^^^^^
&
gross negligence

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Don't even point 'fake, inert, blue, training' guns at people. just don't do it.

That means that there will never be any FOF training, which is the only way to actually train people for these kind of scenarios.

So, pardon me, that's not realistic for well trained military, police or civilians.

There was a failure here but a blanket proscription is not sensible.

[1-DAB]

the cop should have known better. i'm not sure about the nice lady.

if you start making exceptions, you confuse the mindset you are trying to teach: guns are deadly, and should only be aimed at things you want to shoot and harm.

for the few elite that need FOF training, they darn well better know what they are doing in training.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Sorry, the 'elite' doesn't cut it as a determinant. Everyday police officers are trained to be first responders and immediately engage active shooters.

They need FOF - it is not just for elites.

Also, for a serious civilian - there is no better cure for Internet commando-itis than being in a well planned FOF training session. Trying to shoot some threat in a moving confusing and stressful situation is a far cry from shooting at some square paper and yakking about stopping power.

There is a wealth of literature on this.

[1-DAB]

and yet....he shot an innocent woman for no reason other than he violated the rules of gun safety.

yeah, i'm not an expert in anything, so i won't win any debate. i don't have a bunch of cool credentials on my wall, i don't have hundreds of hours of specialized training, i haven't been in combat, i've never worn a badge, and yet, from far away, just reading the news accounts, i can properly conclude that he messed up. big time.

treat all guns as loaded
keep guns pointed in a safe direction at all times
keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire
know your target and what is beyond.

but...what the hell do i know?

[jmr40]

Cops have always used guns, both real and fake in training. And they do point them at people. It is just part of the training. I'm not a cop, but have participated in training exercises with SWAT teams training for school shooting and hostage situations. They used their duty weapons, but were cleared by a supervisor with a flag in each chamber prior to the drill. They carried no reloads.

I'm a retired teacher and we worked with our local PD to develop a plan in our local schools shortly after the Columbine shootings. It was very informative. A SWAT team from a neighboring county played the bad guys while our team tried to rescue us. Long story short, we all died, I had an AR pointed at me when the guy said "Bang, you're dead". The bad guys forced several of us to change clothes with them, killed us and walked out to the command post pretending to be released hostages where they pulled out handguns and killed all the EMT's and cops.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The four rules are not physical laws of the universe. They are mnemonic devices to promote safety.

Reciting them is not a convincing argument against using blue guns for instance.

There was a massive failure in procedure. That does not mean that training cannot occur.

That's what the takeaway lesson should be.

[1-DAB]

and if you follow the 4 rules of basic gun safety, you have a very good chance of having a safe day around a gun.

reciting them is one thing, doing them, always, is where it's at.

the cop didn't do them. nor, apparently, did anyone else insist he do them.

don't point a gun at me. even a fake one. i'll do likewise.

[Lohman446]

In paintball fields we were required to use a visual barrel blocking device. The markers of course were not unloaded but the idea was the blocking device would prevent any accidental shooting. It was also easy for others to see (or to see a lack of).

I vaguely understand the use of duty weapons. I think a flag in the chamber (I know some gun shops use them) to show the firearm is a non-functional condition is the absolute bare min. it would take for me to be comfortable pointing a firearm at someone or having one pointed at me. A drop in solid orange barrel would be better...

"The costs of..."

No. In my (non-professional opinion) pointing a firearm that has not been rendered non-functional at someone is negligent. For a trainer to advocate doing so is negligent.

[Slopemeno]

"..the cost of" is going to be cheap compared to the settlement.

[geetarman]

Someone screwed up big time. Losing their job should be the least of their problems now.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by 1-DAB

don't even point 'fake, inert, blue, training' guns at people. just don't do it.

A "blue gun" is not a gun. It's essentially made specifically for pointing at people.

Only real guns are real guns.

Trying to apply the rules to scenarios that don't make sense to the vast majority of people will only make people disregard the rules.... "Oh, they're ALWAYS saying that crap! Even with FAKE guns!"

The 4 Rules apply to real guns ALL THE TIME. All *real* guns are *always* loaded. Blue guns are never loaded, because they're not guns.

To the point though, these scenarios should not be conducted with "live" firearms. They should be using blue guns, simunitions, airsoft and/or paintball guns, as appropriate to the time and place.

[1-DAB]

imagine you are out and about, minding your own business, and someone points what appears to be a blue gun at you. what do you do?

what if he went to Ace Hardware and bought a can of pretty blue paint and painted his real gun blue? oops.

if it looks like a gun, i treat it as a gun. even 'fake' blue guns.

[Brian Pfleuger]

That is the logical fallacy of False Equivalence. We're talking about trusted folks, in a known scenario, with known "Blue Gun" fake weapons.

What someone can do on the street with a can of spray paint is completely irrelevant.

[1-DAB]

we'll have to disagree on this.

i treat all guns as loaded. all guns. real guns, BB guns, toy guns that look like real guns, training guns, loaded guns, unloaded guns....all guns. it makes life simple. treat all guns as loaded.

if you and your friends want to train/play/horse around with whatever gun you have handy, knock yourself out, i won't be there.

that cop no doubt assumed his gun was unloaded. obviously it wasn't.

as for the 'fake blue guns' used for training, they are also cheaper to have around and show someone how to perform certain tasks with. but you should be teaching at the same time safe gun handling. treat it as loaded. keep it pointed in a safe direction......

how many people have been shot by unloaded guns? oh, the gun wasn't unloaded. oops. if they hadn't been pointing it at themselves or others, they still be around to debate gun safety.

on to the next thread.

[AK103K]

As with a lot of things these days, what ever happened to common sense?

It seems for many anymore, following all the rules and regulations to the letter, is more important than life itself, and in many cases, trying to do so, will likely bring that to an end.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by 1-DAB

we'll have to disagree on this.

i treat all guns as loaded. all guns. real guns, BB guns, toy guns that look like real guns, training guns, loaded guns, unloaded guns....all guns. it makes life simple. treat all guns as loaded.

if you and your friends want to train/play/horse around with whatever gun you have handy, knock yourself out, i won't be there.

that cop no doubt assumed his gun was unloaded. obviously it wasn't.

as for the 'fake blue guns' used for training, they are also cheaper to have around and show someone how to perform certain tasks with. but you should be teaching at the same time safe gun handling. treat it as loaded. keep it pointed in a safe direction......

how many people have been shot by unloaded guns? oh, the gun wasn't unloaded. oops. if they hadn't been pointing it at themselves or others, they still be around to debate gun safety.

on to the next thread.

And your requirements completely eliminate the possibility of ANY form of realistic training by EVERY human being on earth, besides eliminating entire sports (paint ball).

That, besides being demonstrably illogical and impossibly convoluted.

Imagine your child makes a rubber band "gun", or a lego "gun" or a POP TART "gun", they're supposed to "Follow the 4 Rules" because it's a "gun"? What about the Paint "Gun" in my dad's garage that he paints cars with? He's supposed to follow the 4 Rules? That's just ridiculous.

Just because the name includes "gun" doesn't mean it IS a gun.

We're not talking about "unloaded" guns. We're talking about THINGS THAT AREN'T guns AT ALL.

[Old Bill Dibble]

Blue guns are disappearing from training except for retention and capture techniques. Even my little department in a small corner of the hinterlands uses a simuntion upper on the officer's duty weapon for FOF training. These will not chamber and fire live rounds.

Failure on a systemic level here.



ETA- I don't think I made it clear that I am pretty angry about this. It is completely and totally inexcusable for someone to die in this way. Finding and attaching blame are all part of it but my only real hope is that whatever went wrong goes out everywhere so this failure is not repeated.