Got a Llama...

[HuntingLikeABadHabit]

Before I write a long drawn out post asking for suggestions I realize there are a lot of thoughts and posts about the terrible 1911ish pistols we call Llamas.

Anywho, I have a collector friend that brings me guns to minor repair or clean up from time to time and last week he sent a couple that had been sitting in one of his safes for about 5 years without any love whatsoever. One was a Beretta 21 that I made quick work of making function again and the other was a Llama Minimax. The issue with the max was simply "it will not feed". He said he got it 20 years ago or more and it wouldn't feed well so in the safe it has been for probably that long with just intermittent cleanings. As far as wear goes, it looks like it has 100-200rds through it max. I gutted this little thing down to bare bones and polished everything that even thinks of moving or contacting a round. I put a light coat of froglube on the contact points and put her back together with some dwindling hopes that it would at least feed a couple of rounds by racking the slide. It failed to go into battery about 2/3 of time when I racked the slide.

I took the pistol back to him and he mentioned just keeping it around for trade gun. Maybe I am retarded or maybe I just can't deal with failure but I asked him what he would have to have for it. He gave it to me.

I realize the reputation of these little fellas but hey, free is a great price for a wooden anvil!

I have ordered a 21lb spring set for the Kimber UC that should fit and strengthen the recoil side of it, I ordered a new sear spring just for good measure because it is factory and has been just sitting in there since it left Spain and a new EB firing pin for the same reason. I'm literally into it $30 and time at this point.

While I realize this will likely never replace my higher priced 1911s or other carry pieces. I would like to see this made into a reliable shooter.

Any other suggestions on how to make her run consistently? I have dealt a bit with 1911s but again, this is the first Llama I have placed in my hands.

[g.willikers]

When I was young and poor and wanted a pistol in addition to my revolver, the best advice I got was:
If you're thinking of getting a Llama, buy a Star instead.

[Ibmikey]

Hunting, I have quite a collection of Spanish pistols, mostly Star but a dozen or so are small frame Llamas. I have three Micro's and all function just fine and in fact are great shooting pistols and a lot of fun. Your micro is of the later blowback variety and a new set of springs should aid in getting you on line, the blow backs take a much stiffer recoil spring than the locked breech of earlier design....check out the Spanish pistol forum on Guntalk...many learned affectionados of the pistol there.

[Walt Sherrill]

I've had two Llama 9mm 1911s, both imported by Stoeger, back when they paid a lot of attention to quality control.

The first one had a trigger that wasn't the best, and I asked my gunsmith to see what he could do. He found that one of the hammer hooks was broken, and ordered a replacement. Turns out that the hammer/sear of those older 1911 Llamas weren't quite 1911 spec, but if you replaced BOTH with 1911 spec parts, things worked well. It was a heavy gun, but one of the better shooting 9mm I have owned. That said, it sat in the safe a lot, and I later sold it to a guy who was enthusiastic about Llamas, and knew all about them.

More recently, I picked up another. Absolutely pristine, in original box, etc. Heavy trigger. Took it to the same gunsmith and asked him to work on it. He said the inside was badly rusted -- strange given the pristine outer appearance. He cleaned it up, and it's a fine shooting gun, as well. The only problem with the 9mm Llamas is finding mags -- while the Colt mags will work, factory mags are better. I'll probably hang onto this one.

[James K]

I worked on some of those late Llamas and they are, IMHO, junk. They look very nice on the outside but inside they are loose and have a lot of filing and hand fitting, not a good sign. I worked on an Omni that wouldn't keep on a sheet of paper at 25 feet; I thought it was a fluke until I got in another that was, if anything, worse. I will say that they worked and might have been OK for SD if the bad guy was very large.

Jim

[Ibmikey]

Hunting, So there you have the positive and negative. As I indicated I have several of the Micros (looked and actually have five of them) and after some years of shoddy manufacturing during the seventies and eighties the company was producing some redesigned and reliable pistols once again. The interior parts do not have a lot of hand work done on them and most could use some stoning to improve functioning just as the majority of mass produced pistols can. I have found the Micros to be nice reliable shooters ( limited to the five I own) and would think yours can be also given a study of the malfunctions and correction of the problem. Try a new recoil spring and then diagnose if needed, and smile at the doom and gloom boys who offer criticism but no answers.

[Japle]

Many years ago, a guy I knew who was thinking about buying a Llama 1911 brought it into the shop for a check-out. Once I got it cleaned up it would:

Fire with the safety on or off.
Fire without the grip safety being depressed.
Fire when out of battery.

I advised him not to buy the gun.

[peggysue]

Now days with the inexpensive Philippine imports, CNC, and poly pistols you have a better choice of inexpensive guns guns that work. I can recall in the 1970's and 1980's when your choice of firearms is nothing like we have today. Llamas and Stars are of that time. The Iron curtain was still closed.

[Skans]

Harry Beckwith tried to sell me a Llama 1911 when I was very young. I passed on it because I read that the steel was soft (the truth of this is still debated today) and it was all Bekwith chewed me out for not buying it. This was back in 1985. Ahhh, the days when I was young and stupid and Bekwith was old and crotchety....I loved visiting his store!

[Ibmikey]

Peggy, It seems one of the Philippine pistols now being introduced is a copy (updated I am sure) of the Llama .380 Micro. Have not seen anything but photos yet.

[HuntingLikeABadHabit]

Thanks for all of the info and advice. Basically I am in a pistol that may be a heck of a little shooter or a great paper weight for $30. $30 isn't a bad gamble, I've spent more than that on tickets to a bad movie.

As far as the poor fitting and bad tool marks, I do not see anything of the sort. It actually seems to be a pretty tight little thing. Not too tight but the thing does not rattle either. Has plenty of sharp edges but that could be a simple fix if it turns to be worth it.

I will get those springs in there this weekend and see how she performs. Will post more after that.

Any other tips or thoughts are appreciated.

I will admit the staunch opinions have me pretty curious as to how it will turn out.

[Grant D]

I bought a Llama Mini Max 45 acp around 2001 or 2002 from Academy for $265.00.
Never had a problem with it.( like you, after a little polishing )

I even used it on the shooting test for my CHL and was the only one out of thirty people in the class to get a perfect score.
What's funny is they offered to loan me one of their Glocks for the test.

But since them I have bought four more 1911's

It's not the 1911 that I shoot the most, but it gets carried in my truck, and on occasion on the nightstand.

[gyvel]

Harry Beckwith tried to sell me a Llama 1911 when I was very young.

Are you talking about Harry Beckwith in Micanopy????

[JERRYS.]

when money is tight for a first time buyer, a cheap revolver is better than a cheap semi-auto.

[T. O'Heir]

A 21lb spring set isn't going to fix a feeding issue. Very likely to make it worse. Heavy springs are for hot ammo.
Feeding issues are normally ammo or magazine related. Look at the mag lips first, then the feed ramp.
Gunparts lists the MiniMax recoil springs. They want $10.65 for the External they have in stock. The Internal looks the same to me. Out of stock of course. They do have buckets of other parts though.
Exploded drawing is here. http://stevespages.com/ipb-llama-minimax.html
Manual is here. http://stevespages.com/pdf/llama_minimaxsubcomp.pdf

[Ibmikey]

Hunting, Not being able to experience your malfunctions my suggestion on a recoil spring was for a replacement not extra power. As far as mags go my Llama mags have been pretty dependable, however if you would like the loan of a factory mag for testing PM me and I will send one. They are usually available on Gun Broker just make sure they are factory, do get a bit pricey though. I should have one still in the wrapper I can loan.

[HuntingLikeABadHabit]

Mikey, that is very kind. Let me try something before we get to shipping mags. Just a while ago I was hand stripping rounds out and I noticed the first five or six the case rims hang up on the round below offering a bit of resistance. I loaded it again with another brand of ammo and the resistance was much lower (if not gone completely). Why I didn't hand strip rounds from the mag from the get go I don't know... I'm going to try and run some of the other rounds through it and see if it acts at least a little better.

More to come shortly.

Jerrys, I have revolvers. Love them to death. Also love my other semis, both cheaper and high end ones. This one was free as a song so it's more of a challenge or experience building piece.

[HuntingLikeABadHabit]

Okay. Went from the cheapo 230 ball ammo I have for paper to my everyday carry JHPs (the only other thing I had). Out of one 10rnd mag I had only two FTFs, with those the round appeared to chamber much more smoothly. It just lacked about 1/4" from going into full battery. A simple jerk on the slide and it locked up like it should. If it will do that much better with JHPs do you think swapping the springs could make it much better?

We're on the right track...

O'Heir thanks for reminding me about ammo. I will pick up some different ball ammo tommorrow.

[Skans]

Are you talking about Harry Beckwith in Micanopy????

Yep - the one and only, rest his soul. I used to like going into his shop every couple of months or so. Half his shop was filled with antiques and old tools that had layers of dust coating them. The gun counters were lined with a fantastic Luger collection - I have never seen so many Lugers in one place! As I recall, he always open carried some kind of fancy gun (I think it was a shiny 45 with silver grips?). When I first started going to Beckwith's shop, I couldn't have been older than 19, if that. The guy was pretty intimidating to me. He showed me the Llama when I must have been about 21, looking to buy my first semi-auto pistol. I already had 2 revolvers by then. This was in the early '80's.

I see someone said they purchased a Llama 45 for $265.00. If I recall correctly, that was right around what Bekwith was selling them for in the early '80's. They were nice looking guns - I probably should have bought one.

[gyvel]

LOL!! Skans, I used to go into Harry's place in the 60s while I was going to college in Gainesville. Yep, it was pretty much as you described it even then. I never could afford any of the neat stuff he had then, though.

[Skans]

gyvel, I knew Bekwith had been around a long time, but I didn't know he had been there since the '60's! Very cool. Going to Bekwith's as a young guy was a real experience.

[Big Shrek]

Best thing you can do with a .45acp Llama is re-chamber the barrel to .45acp.

Sounds weird? Not really...they were often simply done wrong. So if you redo it, chances are it'll be right
Should solve at least two of your issues!

[larryh1108]

Lol, between myself and ibMikey we probably have 30 or more Llamas between us. All of them seem to work ok for us. I guess we're just lucky!

The last-gasp Llama offerings were the Max Series which were their closest models with the mil-spec guns. In the large frame these were probably their best attempt at the 1911 crowd. My Llama Max I L/F (large frame) 9mm is the best 9mm I own (which says a lot) and I'd put it up against any of the current 1911 9mm offerings you see today that go upwards to $1000. Smooth, accurate and 100% reliable. Must be an anomaly.

The Minimax is Llama's version of the Officer's 1911 and has been known to be a bit finicky. This is common across the 1911 line of short barreled 1911s. It's more due to the controlled feeding with the short cycling action of the Officer's model. It is an inherent thing and may be fixed with proper mag tuning and spring tension for your gun or it may never be 100% reliable.

If you reload you may find the perfect COAL for the .45ACP round that can make the Minimax as reliable as any 1911 is. If you stick with ball ammo you may be able to find that perfect COAL that will enable the bullet to roll over instead of sticking in the throat, short of battery. If you polish the chamber and tweak the feel lips (to work with your particular gun) and find the happy COAL number you can end up with a nice, inexpensive gem. If it's too much trouble then you'll have an attractive paper weight or safe queen. I'm sure you can sell it for ~$375 or so if you want to turn it into another purchase.

[HuntingLikeABadHabit]

Larryh, I do think with a little tuning it will turn out to be a reliable little shooter. You likely nailed it when you said the feed issue is common among short barreled 1911's. I purchased a Springfield micro compact brand new a number of years ago that took me a ton of breaking in, tweaking and tuning before I trusted it to feed every time. Unfortunately and fortunately the weather and a brand new addition to the family has kept me from shooting the little bugger in the last week. I'll figure out what makes it tick.

I am just beginning to explore reloading so in the next year or so that will likely help work up the loads it likes as well.

[Big Shrek]

Oh, since LarryH mentioned it, made me think of another short-barreled .45acp that had a few early issues...the S&W CS45
They ended up using an impressed tool mark to modify the S&W mags,
which prevented the next round from popping up unexpectedly...might be a possible cure, might not...

One on the left is a 4526, one on the right is a CS45.


Carve a piece of wood/plastic to fit the inside of the mag for support, , slap it in a vise,
then carefully apply a flathead screwdriver & a mallet...