Porpoising the Pistol - Page 2

Bartholomew Roberts · July 26, 2016, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dufus

Also, if you do not appreciate my comments, just say so and I will avoid you

Thank you! I'll take you up on that offer.

johnwilliamson062 · July 26, 2016, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Some folks practice to avoid that by standing up close to a bar parallel to the the ground about three feet high.

I have to ask, why 3 feet high?

If I am pulling straight up to my center chest or armpit and then out, I am well above three feet when I transition to movement away from my body.

Not saying I need to be that high, but your post leads me to believe you have a reason to think 3' is something like a standard.

I am guessing three feet is roughly 6-9" above where I carry in a super tuck standing up straight.
Are we dropping down to behind the barrier or remaining standing on this drill?

bamaranger · July 28, 2016, 01:02 PM

It is interesting to read how technique has eclipsed equipment.

At the very front of my carrer, we were issued a clamshell/breakfront duty holster. There was NO WAY to draw out the top of that rig, you could only "bowl" forward, and drawstrokes were very slow with extreme amounts of unneccessary motion. Once you got the gun out, coming back to some type of retention position took even more motion. By todays standards, they were archaic, yet were considered state of the art in the '80's (by the agency anyhow). There was an extreme emphasis on the holster as a retention device.

I was one of the last of the breed that started with the revolver/clamshell, and finished with a modern topdraw holster (Safariland ALS) and an auto pistol. You could almost always spot an old revolver shooter by their clumsy bowling draw. Just as bad were the "Starsky and Hutch " types, who drew out the top, immediately rotated the muzzle skyward, then arced it high back out to eye level, just like a TV crime show. Old bad habits die hard, especially without good practice.

We have come a long way with modern technique and equipment.

Old Bill Dibble · July 28, 2016, 06:01 PM

The Army didn't even train on how to properly draw a pistol in most units until 2005+. Pre-911 days some units were so terrified that the soldiers would blow their feet off presenting that the ranges did not even allow drawing.

I think it was 2007 before I got any training on presentation. That would be near 20 years in.

Brit · July 28, 2016, 11:38 PM

The draw I teach, I call the punch draw. When the draw is completed, and the forward punch ends, the sights are aligned on the nose of the head at 7m and less, that I am shooting at.

Much easier to demonstrate than to describe. But I will give it a go.

There are some rules, first, I have taught thousands of Police/Security, as a trade, for over twenty years. I was a Board Member if IALEFI for twenty years, 1984 till 2004.

But this is the CCW crowd I am talking too. No rules, no job description. First carry the same pistol, always.
In the same holster, in the same part of your body.

Always!! The drawing/Firing/handling of your pistol must be totally instinctive!
I am getting tired, it is after 12-30 am. So I will end with my choice of Pistols, a Gen4 Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights, 4.5lb trigger weight, Glock factory extended slide release (I know Glock does not use that terminology)
clip the bottom corner off the magazine release, it digs into my second finger.

At some time in the future I will add to this. Good Night, and God Bless.

g.willikers · July 29, 2016, 08:32 AM

Quote:

I have to ask, why 3 feet high?

If the suggested height of 3 feet isn't suitable, adjust accordingly.
The idea is to block your gun from being able to "bowl" with it.
If the gun isn't kept close to the body and drawn upward from the holster, the gun and gun hand hits the bar.

Quote:

If I am pulling straight up to my center chest or armpit and then out, I am well above three feet when I transition to movement away from my body.

Then you're not bowling and you don't need to practice using the bar, since you would be clear of it anyway.
See?
So, don't sweat it, you obviously don't need to correct your draw.

johnwilliamson062 · July 30, 2016, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Then you're not bowling and you don't need to practice using the bar, since you would be clear of it anyway.
See?
So, don't sweat it, you obviously don't need to correct your draw.
Yesterday 12:38 AM

And what if I am instructing?
If available I use commonly available cover/concealment. Fences, cars, windows, whatever.
Just wondering what your thought was on the subject.

**JohnKSa** · July 30, 2016, 09:25 PM

The point is that the 3' bar prevents a "bowling style" draw.

It's not that 3' is something magical that translates to a practical height in real world shootings, it's just that if you place something at that height when practicing a draw from the standing position, it will insure that the proper technique (i.e. pull up and push out) is being used.

It's like the ball & dummy drill. People advocating the ball & dummy drill as a way to detect flinching and help teach proper technique aren't advocating carrying dummy cartridges in self-defense guns or saying that dummy rounds are a good idea in real-world shootings. It's just a way of helping to insure proper technique during practice situations.

g.willikers · July 31, 2016, 09:50 AM

^^^^
That explanation should make it perfectly clear.
Thank you.

johnwilliamson062 · August 11, 2016, 09:38 PM

I'm tall, well at least average height, in many Asian countries, but when we lined up for graduation in HS I was something like 5th from the front(shortest). I think 3' is too short for me. It may stop a true "bowling" draw, but I'm not sure it will force a correct draw. I will have to set something up in my garage and test it.

I just imagine some 6'2" person finding this thread in a google post, going to the trouble of making a device at exactly 36" because the thread said so, and it not really doing much for them. Of course, they think it did, because, you know, the internet said so.

shep854 · August 12, 2016, 07:42 AM

What I have done is to train myselft to 'draw to retention', pulling the pistol straight up against my side, then thrusting out to the appropriate shooting position. This may be fully extended for aimed fire, or a closer-in 'point-shoot' position. Practicing with targets at varying distances helps make this automatic.

Brit · August 31, 2016, 07:16 AM

shep854.

That is basically The Punch Draw! As soon as the leveled pistol hits your sight line, it can be fired, but the very short time from sight line to fully extended, makes the world of difference to first round accurate hits.

shep854 · August 31, 2016, 07:47 AM

"shep854.

"That is basically The Punch Draw! As soon as the leveled pistol hits your sight line, it can be fired, but the very short time from sight line to fully extended, makes the world of difference to first round accurate hits."--Brit

True. That is also why I practice point shooting for close targets.

B.A. · September 11, 2016, 03:48 AM

I might be beating a dead horse here, seeing as this thread is pretty much done.
But I would just like to comment on the 3' obstruction. Although it may not be ideal for everyone, and although it might not guarantee a perfect draw, it's a good benchmark. It's also often the standard height of a counter, be it kitchen, shop, bar, hotel reception or otherwise, as well as many actual road, gate etc barriers.

July 28, 2016, 01:02 PM	#28
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,303	clamshell It is interesting to read how technique has eclipsed equipment. At the very front of my carrer, we were issued a clamshell/breakfront duty holster. There was NO WAY to draw out the top of that rig, you could only "bowl" forward, and drawstrokes were very slow with extreme amounts of unneccessary motion. Once you got the gun out, coming back to some type of retention position took even more motion. By todays standards, they were archaic, yet were considered state of the art in the '80's (by the agency anyhow). There was an extreme emphasis on the holster as a retention device. I was one of the last of the breed that started with the revolver/clamshell, and finished with a modern topdraw holster (Safariland ALS) and an auto pistol. You could almost always spot an old revolver shooter by their clumsy bowling draw. Just as bad were the "Starsky and Hutch " types, who drew out the top, immediately rotated the muzzle skyward, then arced it high back out to eye level, just like a TV crime show. Old bad habits die hard, especially without good practice. We have come a long way with modern technique and equipment.

July 30, 2016, 09:25 PM	#33
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,975	The point is that the 3' bar prevents a "bowling style" draw. It's not that 3' is something magical that translates to a practical height in real world shootings, it's just that if you place something at that height when practicing a draw from the standing position, it will insure that the proper technique (i.e. pull up and push out) is being used. It's like the ball & dummy drill. People advocating the ball & dummy drill as a way to detect flinching and help teach proper technique aren't advocating carrying dummy cartridges in self-defense guns or saying that dummy rounds are a good idea in real-world shootings. It's just a way of helping to insure proper technique during practice situations. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

July 31, 2016, 09:50 AM	#34
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	^^^^ That explanation should make it perfectly clear. Thank you. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

August 12, 2016, 07:42 AM	#36
shep854 Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: Birmingham AL Posts: 632	What I have done is to train myselft to 'draw to retention', pulling the pistol straight up against my side, then thrusting out to the appropriate shooting position. This may be fully extended for aimed fire, or a closer-in 'point-shoot' position. Practicing with targets at varying distances helps make this automatic. __________________ Powder smoke- The Smell of FREEDOM! I don't shoot to kill; I shoot to live. Registration? NEVER!!

August 31, 2016, 07:47 AM	#38
shep854 Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: Birmingham AL Posts: 632	"shep854. "That is basically The Punch Draw! As soon as the leveled pistol hits your sight line, it can be fired, but the very short time from sight line to fully extended, makes the world of difference to first round accurate hits."--Brit True. That is also why I practice point shooting for close targets. __________________ Powder smoke- The Smell of FREEDOM! I don't shoot to kill; I shoot to live. Registration? NEVER!!

July 28, 2016, 06:01 PM	#29
Old Bill Dibble Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2016 Posts: 802	The Army didn't even train on how to properly draw a pistol in most units until 2005+. Pre-911 days some units were so terrified that the soldiers would blow their feet off presenting that the ranges did not even allow drawing. I think it was 2007 before I got any training on presentation. That would be near 20 years in.

July 28, 2016, 11:38 PM	#30
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	The draw I teach, I call the punch draw. When the draw is completed, and the forward punch ends, the sights are aligned on the nose of the head at 7m and less, that I am shooting at. Much easier to demonstrate than to describe. But I will give it a go. There are some rules, first, I have taught thousands of Police/Security, as a trade, for over twenty years. I was a Board Member if IALEFI for twenty years, 1984 till 2004. But this is the CCW crowd I am talking too. No rules, no job description. First carry the same pistol, always. In the same holster, in the same part of your body. Always!! The drawing/Firing/handling of your pistol must be totally instinctive! I am getting tired, it is after 12-30 am. So I will end with my choice of Pistols, a Gen4 Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights, 4.5lb trigger weight, Glock factory extended slide release (I know Glock does not use that terminology) clip the bottom corner off the magazine release, it digs into my second finger. At some time in the future I will add to this. Good Night, and God Bless.

August 11, 2016, 09:38 PM	#35
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I'm tall, well at least average height, in many Asian countries, but when we lined up for graduation in HS I was something like 5th from the front(shortest). I think 3' is too short for me. It may stop a true "bowling" draw, but I'm not sure it will force a correct draw. I will have to set something up in my garage and test it. I just imagine some 6'2" person finding this thread in a google post, going to the trouble of making a device at exactly 36" because the thread said so, and it not really doing much for them. Of course, they think it did, because, you know, the internet said so.

August 31, 2016, 07:16 AM	#37
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	shep854. That is basically The Punch Draw! As soon as the leveled pistol hits your sight line, it can be fired, but the very short time from sight line to fully extended, makes the world of difference to first round accurate hits.

September 11, 2016, 03:48 AM	#39
B.A. Member Join Date: May 20, 2008 Location: East Africa Posts: 67	I might be beating a dead horse here, seeing as this thread is pretty much done. But I would just like to comment on the 3' obstruction. Although it may not be ideal for everyone, and although it might not guarantee a perfect draw, it's a good benchmark. It's also often the standard height of a counter, be it kitchen, shop, bar, hotel reception or otherwise, as well as many actual road, gate etc barriers.