is brass too short?

marlinmark · June 30, 2016, 06:46 AM

good morning one and all. i think i might have a problem and i'm hoping you might be able to help me out. now i have only been reloading for around a year and a half so i'm still green when it comes to reloading. one of my rifles is the marlin 336 in 30-30 and the problem i am having is an order i received yesterday from midway usa. just for starters i've been using midway from the get go and have always received good product and service from them. well this order i'm about to tell is the first bad issue i've had from them and am alittle disappointed in how they responded to an e-mail i sent them last night. the product is a 50 piece 30-30 winchester brass case sizes that i received.
now i have lymans 49th edtion manual so i've read about the info concerning that round. anyway it states the brass trim size is 2.028. now the order i have i measured each piece out of the box and the longest size was 2.027. had maybe a couple that size. the lowest reading on around two or three pieces was 2.018. the rest of the order averaged around 2.024- 2.025. i'm concerned that these are too short to really do anything with. after measuring all 50 pieces i went and read the reviews on midways website,(which is something i almost always do before ordering a part) but this time i didn't and read quite a few bad comments about the brass being too short.
wrote to midway (missed the phone hours) and explained the situation and this morning there was an e-mail advising me to call the tech support at sierra reloading. no problem, i'll call them later this morning and see what happens. anyway got that reply along with a sorry for any inconveniences.
is it me or do any of you think i might be getting the brush off from midway.
this is the first time i purchused brass from midway. normally i can pick up 30-30 brass from the gun shows but this month i missed that boat so i thought i might give midway a try. any input,advice would be greatly appreciated to get thought this chapter. thanks for your time and sorry so long.

243winxb · June 30, 2016, 06:58 AM

After sizing, maximum is 2.0395" Trim to length is 2.0295" But ok to use by SAAMI standards as short as 2.0195" That is a lot of variation for brass from the same lot. But with the 30-30s long neck, i dont see a problem with short brass, less or no trimming. http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC

TimSr · June 30, 2016, 07:26 AM

Not getting the brush off. They are referring you to the mfg for technical support. They are not in a position to give knowledgeable technical support on all the products they sell, any more than the salesperson at Walmart can be expected to tell you how to edit photos on the camera you bought there.

New brass needs to be sized before measuring length. I'm not sure if you did that. Case length being too short it not critical in 30-30. More important that it be uniform for uniform crimping which you may or may not be doing with 30-30 rounds.

F. Guffey · June 30, 2016, 07:37 AM

I form cases, there are cases I form that shorten .045" by the time they are fired. And then there is RCBS; they suggest when using the "X" die start by trimming the case .020". Reloaders are under the illusion the "X" die prevents the case from growing?. The logic: by the time the case increases in length .020" it is time to start on another case and then there is that thing reloaders have trouble understanding when sizing with a collets.

F. Guffey

I want my cases to cover the chamber.

marlinmark · June 30, 2016, 07:57 AM

well thank you all for responding so quickly. good to know that i should be ok. also good to know that midway usa is not really in a position to advise about tech. questions and that they are in fact assisting me in where to go for the infomation that i need. i have mentioned that i've always had great experiences with them. just got concerned with all the negative reviews. they are some mighty shiny pieces of brass though. nice to know i can still stick around.
the e-mails i did write to midway were in no way angry,upsetting or anyway in that nature. i find it's so much easier to deal with people in as pleasant a way as possible. things go by so much smoother that way. thanks again for your replies.....mark

marlinmark · June 30, 2016, 08:33 AM

greeting all and good morning. well just talked to the tech. support guys at sierra reloading. explained the situation and he said not to worry. just make sure the mouth is true and load em up. makes my day so i thought i would pass on the info. thanks again for all your help..

T. O'Heir · June 30, 2016, 12:31 PM

A few thou short isn't going to cause you any grief. They'll stretch on their first firing anyway. Load 'em to 2.550" OAL and you'll be fine.

Pathfinder45 · June 30, 2016, 01:29 PM

Well, I definitely see a problem: The 30-30 Winchester cartridge is loaded primarily for tubular-magazine rifles, and in such rifles, the cartridges require a substantial crimp to keep the bullets in place when the rifle recoils. If you are crimping with a standard seating die, it is imperative that all cases are trimmed to the exact same length when the crimp is applied. Otherwise, you will have either your longest cases crimped just right and your shortest cases inadequately crimped; or, the short ones you get just right and the long ones get over-crimped with the case-mouths slightly buckled and they won't even chamber.
An excellent solution is to crimp using a special die called the, "Lee Factory Crimp Die". With this die, the case length is not so crucial. I consider it indispensable loading the 30-30.

243winxb · June 30, 2016, 08:58 PM

I have never crimped the 30WCF (30-30) loading jacketed or cast bullets for the Win 94. But bullet setback should be checked. The long neck gives about 75 lbs bullet pull, neck tension.

Pathfinder45 · July 1, 2016, 01:02 AM

Well, it's important. Say, for instance, that your magazine holds seven rounds like mine does. Then, perhaps you have some fairly maximum but safe hunting loads with a full magazine and you are practicing or sighting in and you will be firing all of the ammo in the rifle. Every time you discharge the rifle, the recoil causes the remaining rounds in the magazine to move forward against the magazine spring and then slam back at the cessation of recoil, effectively hammering the bullets deeper into the case for each successive shot. The crimp is there to eliminate this. Deeper seated bullets will have higher pressure than otherwise. You could have a dangerously high pressure event. Crimps may be completely unnecessary for some calibers in some rifles, like your typical bolt action rifle. I never crimp for my 270 Winchester. But the 30-30 always gets a firm crimp into the bullets cannelure to lock it in place.

F. Guffey · July 1, 2016, 09:55 AM

And then there is the bullet that does not have a groove for crimping, I have a bullet grooving machine, the machine give me options; if the groove is not where I want it I can add one of if the bullet does not have one or I can add it.

And then there is the infatuation reloaders have with crimping. In the big inning before the Internet a reloading company suggested crimping could be a bad habit. They suggested crimping could reduce bullet hold; now right there I wondered what is crimping for if it is not increasing bullet hold, and then I read further. They were comparing pistol crimps with bottle neck crimps.

It was about that time I started using bullet hold measured in pounds. Later came tensions, I found that most difficult because all of my tension gages are calibrated in pounds and or deflection.

F. Guffey

June 30, 2016, 06:46 AM	#1
marlinmark Junior Member Join Date: January 1, 2015 Location: Metro detroit area Posts: 6	is brass too short? good morning one and all. i think i might have a problem and i'm hoping you might be able to help me out. now i have only been reloading for around a year and a half so i'm still green when it comes to reloading. one of my rifles is the marlin 336 in 30-30 and the problem i am having is an order i received yesterday from midway usa. just for starters i've been using midway from the get go and have always received good product and service from them. well this order i'm about to tell is the first bad issue i've had from them and am alittle disappointed in how they responded to an e-mail i sent them last night. the product is a 50 piece 30-30 winchester brass case sizes that i received. now i have lymans 49th edtion manual so i've read about the info concerning that round. anyway it states the brass trim size is 2.028. now the order i have i measured each piece out of the box and the longest size was 2.027. had maybe a couple that size. the lowest reading on around two or three pieces was 2.018. the rest of the order averaged around 2.024- 2.025. i'm concerned that these are too short to really do anything with. after measuring all 50 pieces i went and read the reviews on midways website,(which is something i almost always do before ordering a part) but this time i didn't and read quite a few bad comments about the brass being too short. wrote to midway (missed the phone hours) and explained the situation and this morning there was an e-mail advising me to call the tech support at sierra reloading. no problem, i'll call them later this morning and see what happens. anyway got that reply along with a sorry for any inconveniences. is it me or do any of you think i might be getting the brush off from midway. this is the first time i purchused brass from midway. normally i can pick up 30-30 brass from the gun shows but this month i missed that boat so i thought i might give midway a try. any input,advice would be greatly appreciated to get thought this chapter. thanks for your time and sorry so long. __________________ (Sheriff Buford T. Justice) "What the hell is the world coming too"

June 30, 2016, 07:57 AM	#5
marlinmark Junior Member Join Date: January 1, 2015 Location: Metro detroit area Posts: 6	is brass too short?? well thank you all for responding so quickly. good to know that i should be ok. also good to know that midway usa is not really in a position to advise about tech. questions and that they are in fact assisting me in where to go for the infomation that i need. i have mentioned that i've always had great experiences with them. just got concerned with all the negative reviews. they are some mighty shiny pieces of brass though. nice to know i can still stick around. the e-mails i did write to midway were in no way angry,upsetting or anyway in that nature. i find it's so much easier to deal with people in as pleasant a way as possible. things go by so much smoother that way. thanks again for your replies.....mark __________________ (Sheriff Buford T. Justice) "What the hell is the world coming too"

June 30, 2016, 08:33 AM	#6
marlinmark Junior Member Join Date: January 1, 2015 Location: Metro detroit area Posts: 6	is brass too short?? greeting all and good morning. well just talked to the tech. support guys at sierra reloading. explained the situation and he said not to worry. just make sure the mouth is true and load em up. makes my day so i thought i would pass on the info. thanks again for all your help.. __________________ (Sheriff Buford T. Justice) "What the hell is the world coming too"

June 30, 2016, 12:31 PM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	A few thou short isn't going to cause you any grief. They'll stretch on their first firing anyway. Load 'em to 2.550" OAL and you'll be fine. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 30, 2016, 06:58 AM	#2
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	After sizing, maximum is 2.0395" Trim to length is 2.0295" But ok to use by SAAMI standards as short as 2.0195" That is a lot of variation for brass from the same lot. But with the 30-30s long neck, i dont see a problem with short brass, less or no trimming. http://www.saami.org/specifications_...ex.cfm?page=CC

June 30, 2016, 07:26 AM	#3
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	Not getting the brush off. They are referring you to the mfg for technical support. They are not in a position to give knowledgeable technical support on all the products they sell, any more than the salesperson at Walmart can be expected to tell you how to edit photos on the camera you bought there. New brass needs to be sized before measuring length. I'm not sure if you did that. Case length being too short it not critical in 30-30. More important that it be uniform for uniform crimping which you may or may not be doing with 30-30 rounds.

June 30, 2016, 07:37 AM	#4
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I form cases, there are cases I form that shorten .045" by the time they are fired. And then there is RCBS; they suggest when using the "X" die start by trimming the case .020". Reloaders are under the illusion the "X" die prevents the case from growing?. The logic: by the time the case increases in length .020" it is time to start on another case and then there is that thing reloaders have trouble understanding when sizing with a collets. F. Guffey I want my cases to cover the chamber.

June 30, 2016, 01:29 PM	#8
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Well, I definitely see a problem: The 30-30 Winchester cartridge is loaded primarily for tubular-magazine rifles, and in such rifles, the cartridges require a substantial crimp to keep the bullets in place when the rifle recoils. If you are crimping with a standard seating die, it is imperative that all cases are trimmed to the exact same length when the crimp is applied. Otherwise, you will have either your longest cases crimped just right and your shortest cases inadequately crimped; or, the short ones you get just right and the long ones get over-crimped with the case-mouths slightly buckled and they won't even chamber. An excellent solution is to crimp using a special die called the, "Lee Factory Crimp Die". With this die, the case length is not so crucial. I consider it indispensable loading the 30-30.

June 30, 2016, 08:58 PM	#9
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	I have never crimped the 30WCF (30-30) loading jacketed or cast bullets for the Win 94. But bullet setback should be checked. The long neck gives about 75 lbs bullet pull, neck tension.

July 1, 2016, 01:02 AM	#10
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	Well, it's important. Say, for instance, that your magazine holds seven rounds like mine does. Then, perhaps you have some fairly maximum but safe hunting loads with a full magazine and you are practicing or sighting in and you will be firing all of the ammo in the rifle. Every time you discharge the rifle, the recoil causes the remaining rounds in the magazine to move forward against the magazine spring and then slam back at the cessation of recoil, effectively hammering the bullets deeper into the case for each successive shot. The crimp is there to eliminate this. Deeper seated bullets will have higher pressure than otherwise. You could have a dangerously high pressure event. Crimps may be completely unnecessary for some calibers in some rifles, like your typical bolt action rifle. I never crimp for my 270 Winchester. But the 30-30 always gets a firm crimp into the bullets cannelure to lock it in place.

July 1, 2016, 09:55 AM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	And then there is the bullet that does not have a groove for crimping, I have a bullet grooving machine, the machine give me options; if the groove is not where I want it I can add one of if the bullet does not have one or I can add it. And then there is the infatuation reloaders have with crimping. In the big inning before the Internet a reloading company suggested crimping could be a bad habit. They suggested crimping could reduce bullet hold; now right there I wondered what is crimping for if it is not increasing bullet hold, and then I read further. They were comparing pistol crimps with bottle neck crimps. It was about that time I started using bullet hold measured in pounds. Later came tensions, I found that most difficult because all of my tension gages are calibrated in pounds and or deflection. F. Guffey