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Old Yesterday, 11:45 AM   #126
TXAZ
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1) Dedicated attackers will succeed.

2) Lone wolves are very, very difficult to detect.

3) Crazy people (those exhibiting non-rational behavior) are often "outwardly normal" then may become instantaneously unpredictable in their actions.

4) Legitimate idealists ("True believers" of a cause) will succeed or die trying.

5) Nationality seldom matters.

6) The weapon seldom matters.

How will you stop them? For most, you won't.

The good news is their numbers are relatively limited.


The bad news is 1 can kill 50, 19 can kill 3000.

And there's worse news than that coming.

This isn't a gun issue, except to politicals with an agenda.
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Last edited by TXAZ; Yesterday at 12:01 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Yesterday, 11:50 AM   #127
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They can’t stop a shooter if they aren’t there. There’s no guarantee that a person with a gun will be there. But the above example illustrates why these targets should have security personnel.

The public in the current political environment will not allow all of these places to have trained, armed security... so we are left with hope and chance that someone will be there.

The public will not let armed good guys in many places. So the gun is not the solution. Relying on luck doesn’t work either.
What is the solution besides the gun? Because many places a gun isn’t allowed and will never be allowed.
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 AM   #128
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The answer isn’t the good guy with a gun. I feel that hoping for a good guy with a gun is just leaving things to the improbable chance that a good guy with a gun is actually going to be there. Not that a good guy with a gun won’t work, he/she/they just won’t be there.

No partisan super god is going to come along and grant national reciprocity, sweep away gun free zones, make gun access easier and encourage more people to carry in public. Not going to happen no or ever; most likely guns are going to become more restricted as our country progresses.
You sound just like the anti gun rights crowd with what you say in your post.
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Old Yesterday, 12:07 PM   #129
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I speculating that all armed security personnel --- especially in places of worship --- should have in possession (besides a semi auto handgun) --- a high capacity semi auto rifle as well.

Tit for tat...
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Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM   #130
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All the things that pro-gun people say will solve the problem isn’t going to happen in our country. No one is standing up for gun rights except to provide a little lip service.

Guns are becoming more restricted, ridiculous gun laws are being passed around the country.
If you think gun laws are going to become less restrictive then you might be living in a fantasy land. There’s no patriots to stand up to loss of rights anymore. There’s no political motive to lessen restrictions. No one is going to ease gun free zones.
They are teaching in schools that anything other than the democratic narrative is immoral.
They are even wanting to disarm police officers.
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Old Yesterday, 12:21 PM   #131
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I speculating that all armed security personnel --- especially in places of worship --- should have in possession (besides a semi auto handgun) --- a high capacity semi auto rifle as well.
Where would they keep the rifle?
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Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM   #132
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Photon Guy -

Good question

Due to the seriousness of the situation...I would prefer having them sling AR-15's around their necks, with the muzzle pointed at the ground. I'm guessing that the armed security should wear ballistic armor as well.

But who's gonna pay for all this equipment, training and the insurance bill as well???

And does it sorta take away the religious vibes, with all the armed security personnel scurrying about?
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Old Yesterday, 01:10 PM   #133
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I proposed adding a rifle rack to the Steinway piano at our church. My motion did not receive a second.
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Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM   #134
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I'm reading testimonials to helplessness.

Life has risks.Its never going to be safe. No one,including your government,can keep you safe.

And the 2A does not keep you safe. It gives you a chance,with no guarantees.

The search for words or laws that will keep you safe is illusion. We want control.We will never have control.

Life and death happen.All we can do is deal with it. Tools and the skills to use them can help. Sometimes.
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Old Yesterday, 02:21 PM   #135
PhotonGuy
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Photon Guy -

Good question

Due to the seriousness of the situation...I would prefer having them sling AR-15's around their necks, with the muzzle pointed at the ground. I'm guessing that the armed security should wear ballistic armor as well.

But who's gonna pay for all this equipment, training and the insurance bill as well???

And does it sorta take away the religious vibes, with all the armed security personnel scurrying about?
I disagree. Even police officers don't regularly carry rifles although they might keep them in their squad cars. I think people who are qualified to carry handguns should be allowed to carry in religious institutions and perhaps some of the staff at such places should be qualified and should be carrying concealed.
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Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM   #136
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And the 2A does not keep you safe. It gives you a chance,with no guarantees.
That's the thing, at least it gives you a chance. That's what the 2A is supposed to do, give you a chance, give you an option, the rest is up to you.
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Old Yesterday, 02:51 PM   #137
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Yes, if we could carry anywhere then we would all have a chance if we chose to carry. Gun free zones, societal pressure and beliefs definitely limit our chances significantly.
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 PM   #138
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Okay, I watched the video. Here are a few quick things I picked up in the video...

The gunman "retreated" multiple times between rooms and out of the building, only to return and start anew. People talk about how terrible it is to shoot bad guys who are fleeing, but this is a classic example of how "flight" is determined only AFTER the gunman has actually left. Just because the gunman is going away doesn't mean the fight is over. On his last time leaving, he went after a woman and killed her. Then went to his car for a 2nd time and went to leave. Even after he took flight in his car, having left the mosque, the danger was not over and he shot (at) people from his car.

He was NOT disarmed as claimed in numerous reports, but I think the guy did try to take him down. He failed.

Nobody tried to exit the windows. Building only had one way in and out??? When people did try to take flight, it was out the front door only, it appeared.

Gunman did NOT search one large side room or bathrooms by the large room. He took only easy targets of opportunity. He did not search the side room on the other side, but could see into most of it as he passed by. I suspect survivors from the mosque that were unshot were hidden or out of view in the bathrooms or side rooms that were not searched.

People huddled together long before they were shot which made for easy, stationary targets.

He repeatedly shot dead people or people down, or down and moving or making noise. Playing dead that has worked in numerous other mass shootings would not have worked well here. I may have miscounted, by some people who were down were repeatedly shot as many as 5 separate times. A few may have been shot even more.

Passersby did nothing.

He had a reload-related malfunction (?), had trouble clearing it and did not take cover at the time. He stood out in the open, in view of the open front door, in the middle of the largest room.

I don't think he was well trained or necessarily even trained at all. He just had easy targets that essentially waited to be shot in many cases. That he repeatedly shot people seems to be what drove up the death rate. He certainly wasn't unfamiliar with his weapons, but not to the point to indicate that he was highly trained. Mag changes were not smooth, the malfunction clearing wasn't smooth, he dropped a fully loaded mag and never retrieved it (explained by him in drive afterwards), he left a gun on the ground, during the shooting, he left his vehicle open and all the spare weapons exposed, etc. etc. etc. His strongest skill seemed to be to pull the trigger a lot.
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Old Yesterday, 07:20 PM   #139
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Does anyone know what weapons and calibers he was using?
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Old Yesterday, 07:45 PM   #140
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POSTS #126 and #130 sum things up fairly well in America.
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Old Yesterday, 08:25 PM   #141
PhotonGuy
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Quote:
All the things that pro-gun people say will solve the problem isn’t going to happen in our country. No one is standing up for gun rights except to provide a little lip service.

Guns are becoming more restricted, ridiculous gun laws are being passed around the country.
If you think gun laws are going to become less restrictive then you might be living in a fantasy land. There’s no patriots to stand up to loss of rights anymore. There’s no political motive to lessen restrictions. No one is going to ease gun free zones.
They are teaching in schools that anything other than the democratic narrative is immoral.
They are even wanting to disarm police officers.
rickyrick, you've made it clear you're all for gun rights and I believe you are, but let me ask you this, why are you being such a defeatist with your posts?
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Old Yesterday, 09:48 PM   #142
JERRYS.
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Originally Posted by PhotonGuy View Post
rickyrick, you've made it clear you're all for gun rights and I believe you are, but let me ask you this, why are you being such a defeatist with your posts?
what did he say that is inaccurate?

this is very similar to the old movie where the guy yells that he's mad as hell and that he is not going to take it any more.... and yet, millions have sat back down on their couches and turned on the t.v. without a second thought....

Last edited by JERRYS.; Yesterday at 10:21 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 10:30 PM   #143
rickyrick
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I see that the country is ready to rid itself of guns. I notice ridiculous gun laws being passed around the country. There’s not any real champions of gun rights. The majority of the population wants a radical change in the direction this country is going, that direction does not include gun rights. That’s an extreme possibility.
On the not so extreme front, and a more realistic outcome is this: the conditions that cause large groups of people to be vulnerable to these styles of attacks will not change. There will still be gun free zones in any possible foreseeable future. There will never be a time that a law abiding gun owner can carry in most public venues. More attacks will happen and nothing will change that will increase the likelihood of an armed citizen being present.
If a gun isn’t present then there’s no way that a good guy with a gun would have a chance to stop it. 10-15 years ago, I had a more positive outlook as licenses to carry began gaining popularity and more people were arming themselves. I foresaw a safer country with fewer mass shootings. But instead, these attacks have been increasing in severity and frequency. These attacks have become our national identity almost. If gun restrictions aren’t going to relax, then we need to start looking beyond the good guy with a gun strategy and come up with real solutions instead of catchy slogans.
I think that accepting the fact that these attacks are going to happen and that there’s nothing real that can be done is a defeatist mindset.
I carry for my own protection, but I doubt I’ll ever be at one of these events anyway. Either we need to stand up and make carrying unimpeded or move on to something else. The possibility of a good guy with a gun is just random happenstance at best with current and future events. The tragedies will most certainly happen and we haven’t seen the worst of it. The good guy with a gun being there is improbable unless unlikely changes to gun laws happen. EVENTUALLY the police will get there, that’s all we have that’s fairly certain. We can do better but it will require an effort that I haven’t even seen the start of yet.
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Old Yesterday, 11:12 PM   #144
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It is strange when people consider themselves to be "sheepdogs" like it is supposed to be a good thing to the "sheep." Most have no clue as to what sheepdogs do or why. The sheepdogs are not there for the benefit of the sheep, but for the master. The sheep are held captive for the master under the watchful eye of the sheepdog where they are regularly pillaged for their wool and/or slaughtered for their meat. The sheepdog does protect them from the wolves, but solely in order that the sheep may continue to be exploited for the benefit of the master as they are held captive.

When a sheepdog turns on one or more of the sheep and kills it, and some do, it isn't the other sheepdogs that that stop it, but the master. It isn't the other sheepdogs that dole out punishment, but the master. The sheepdog is no friend to the sheep, despite being in a cute story recounted from an unnamed veteran by Dave Grossman in On Combat.
We always preferred "tamed wolves" but that is not the point of the analogy nor was it mean to be taken to some ridiculous extreme.....
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 PM   #145
davidsog
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That's the thing, at least it gives you a chance. That's what the 2A is supposed to do, give you a chance, give you an option, the rest is up to you.
Best post of the thread.

Quote:
No one will perform perfectly.

And just like you don't know when and where the next mass shooter will strike, you don't know which students will perform well, which will do satisfactory, and which will fall flat on their faces.

Then add in the ones that never had a chance for whatever reason.

Then add in the ones that run away from the scene instead of towards it. We don't care why; it was a choice and they made it.

And so on.

So the reality is that due to the very nature of mass shootings and those that perpetrate them, the rarity of these events, combined with the lack of "good guys" that just happen to be in the area at that exact moment, that we may never see a significant change in the data towards the "good guys with a gun."

The math, simply speaking, is not in our favor.

But we also know that sometimes events work out in a way where we do have a chance to change the outcome, simply because we are in fact armed.

Training, at whatever level, quality, consistency, etc., just evens the odds a little, or maybe even tilts the odds slightly back in our favor, in spite of the fact that we were taken largely by surprise, in a place and time not of our choosing.

And when you must play the cards dealt to you, and they're not very good cards, everyone wants every other advantage they can get before having to show.

One of the great "hidden" tools we have at our disposal is the internet. These free forums. Youtube, and so forth. The ability to ask questions and get answers in almost real-time. To discuss video. To analyze and break down incidents tactically, technically, philosophically, etc. can make a difference to some of us.

Maybe to most of those of us that end up one day having to draw a weapon in actual combat. Or maybe not "most," but maybe to several of us.

Most importantly, maybe something I learn here or on a video, or in a class will save a life, like mine for starters.

Which, by the way, is pretty much exactly how we do it in aviation. We take real incidents from the recent past and break them down and try to come up with solid plans of action in case such things happen to us in the future.
Yes.

Training.....Training that incorporates lessons learned for both CCW and First Responders would make things more effective.

Quote:
good guy with a gun is largely absent but random at best,........

sweeping uniformed concealed carry reciprocity isn’t going to materialize........

most gun free zones are going to stand.
Well let's look at the options:

1. Good guy with a gun is random but No guns is certain just like Paris or a gun free zone leaves us all victims. That is not the answer so even though the statistical chances of having a "good guy with a gun" are small....some chance is better than NONE.

2. Sweeping uniform CCL reciprocity would help by increasing the statistical chances but really getting at the cause of mass shooting or preventing them is not the real agenda....gun control is the agenda.

3. Gun Free zones represent "target rich environments" and further erode the statistical chances of seeing a Good Guy with a Gun materialize.

The argument the "good guy with a gun" does not help logic is a false flag operation used by the gun control agenda. It is a false pretense that appears to be truth because for much of its work, there is nothing to do.

It is very difficult if not impossible to prove how many mass shootings were prevented that never began or targets that were passed over by a shooter.

It is the same argument Hollyweird used to shut down the School of the America's. One of the best programs in existence for professionalizing 3rd World Nation Armies and teaching them how a military functions in a Democracy including the laws of land warfare as well as civil/military relationships and the negative effects of war crimes. Because one cannot keep statistics on how many war crimes were prevented because you cannot record a war crime not committed....

A few idiots squawking loudly with Hollywood influence and money got the program shut down.
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