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Old January 13, 2014, 03:55 PM   #1
maillemaker
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Shot my Colt Walker this weekend.

So after our N-SSA skirmish was over this weekend I was able to try out my Uberti Colt Walker. I loaded up some .454 round ball with 50 grains of 3F Shuetzen (which I hate - very dirty powder).

I would have tried 60 grains but it won't fit in my plastic tubes for making up cartridges.

Recoil is almost non-existant. It is just hard to move such a massive 4.5 pound gun.

Loading leaver dropped down on me a couple of times. I have not filed on the latch as some people do. I will probably make a leather loop to hold the lever up.

I wondered what the point of the shallow groove was in the cut-away in the capping area of the nipple shield on the 1860 Army. Well now I know - the simple cut-away on the Walker is not quite enough to easily fit caps on the nipples.

The machined cut-out notch to allow clearance for the ball to rotate under the loading lever is razor sharp on my Uberti. You could easily easily cut yourself on it if you ran your finger into that notch and twisted, say chasing out some lube or a lead ring.

I shot at a hanging 12" square piece of sheet rock. Using two hands, I kissed it at 100 yards. But later at 50 yards I missed with all 6 shots. My final shot, at 25 yards, I clipped the wire the sheet rock was hanging from, and cut it. It was fitting.

I noticed during cleaning that there is no forcing cone on the Walker - the rifling goes end-to-end on the barrel.

Steve
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Old January 13, 2014, 05:34 PM   #2
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Sounds like fun!

Yeah, I have a Uberti/Colt/Walker and it shoots about 6 inches high even at 100 yards. I just use "Kentucky windage" and shoot it quite well.

If I shoot more than 45 gr of BP, it will also drop the loading lever. I didn't want to file the latch. Some here use electrical tape. Leather, unless it's REALLY thin will block the front sight. I had another member here make a brass "keeper" he designed. It's brilliant!

All the best,

Birch
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Old January 13, 2014, 06:45 PM   #3
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On mine...

Much above 40 grains and my accuracy drops off.
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Old January 13, 2014, 07:15 PM   #4
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I got to shoot my Christmas Walker as well.

I loaded up ball and 50gns of Goex 3F and shot all 5 into a playing card at about 20 yards. I loved it!!!

Went to reload (I use an off the gun press) and busted the end of the spring off the barrel wedge!!!! argh!!! My own fault nothing wrong with the gun or the part.

VTI has the part for over $30 bucks so I ordered 3 so I felt better about the shipping cost. LOL.

Anyway, the gun still shot fine, I just kept an eye on the wedge to be sure it didn't work out while shooting. Worked out fine the rest of the session.

I'm loving my walker too!



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Old January 13, 2014, 07:27 PM   #5
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VTI has the part for over $30 bucks so I ordered 3 so I felt better about the shipping cost. LOL.
Holy smokes! The wedge is $30? I do believe I'd try making one from scratch for that cost.

That is fantastic shooting at 20 yards!

Steve
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Old January 13, 2014, 07:35 PM   #6
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Nice! You guys are making it really difficult to not want to add a black powder revolver to the collection. Looks like it would be a blast.
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Old January 13, 2014, 07:47 PM   #7
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Rigmarol- that's some nice shooting!

SickMick- welcome to the forum. Be warned- 'a' blackpowder revolver has the ability to turn into many blackpowder revolvers.............they are addictive.
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Old January 14, 2014, 06:42 AM   #8
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Is a pistol with the loading lever a "walker" dragoon? I thought that if there was not a loading lever it was a walker but it there was a catch it was a second our third model dragoon. And is there a difference between the three as far as the size of the b/p load is concerned?
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Old January 14, 2014, 09:00 AM   #9
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An improvement in the design of the Dragoon

was to redesign the loading lever latch. In the Walker the "catch" is nearer the barrel lug and at the aft end of the loading lever. To me, it was an odd design from the get go but I had the advantage of seeing the revision in later pistols. (Hind sight is frequently 20-20)

On the Dragoons the "catch" is at the very tip of the loading lever in two different iterations over three models of Dragoon. It is a completely different approach.

So I guess, depending upon how you look at it your supposition is correct.

Or you could say, both Walker and Dragoons have loading lever catches. It is just that the Walker design doesn't work very well.
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Old January 14, 2014, 09:21 AM   #10
44 Dave
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Just last year I bought a 1860 wedge from Dixie for about $10.
Some where, someone also had just the spring listed.
p.s. only 5 holes an the ace of harts
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Old January 14, 2014, 10:41 AM   #11
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Fitting just the spring on the wedge is cheaper. That spring is a part sold too. Not hard to change it out.
Not hard to file the spring fer the loading lever so it stays up. Just file a lil notch in the right place.
I had some inconsistancy to my Walkers accuracy back in the mid eighties. I found that too much powder blows gases at the muzzle inconsistantly and the loose ball strips thru the rifling.
Lower powder charges seem more accurate.
I use 45gr.powder since I see no reason to load more than that since that is a fairly heavy load.
Reaming my chambers to size the ball fer the rifling grooves improved the accuracy of my Walker. Probably upped the pressures as well so maybe that's why 45gr.of powder seems like plenty.
The way my Walker is set up it's as accurate as any revolver I have including smokeless cartridges shooters.
I noticed years ago....after reaming the chambers to size the balls the right diameter the report of the gun was sharper like the ignition and combustion is more complete and the pressures are upped.
Never blew up on me yet after all these years.
It's hard to remember what the barrel dimensions were originally same as what the chambers were out of the box.
I load .472 balls in the chambers. I'm pretty sure the grooves in the barrel are at .464 or something like that(don't remember exactly). Big difference compared to the chambers originally at .449-.450 out of the box. Whatever it is the chambers size the balls .003 in.over the groove diameter of the rifling.
I shoot .464 balls from my Third Dragoon since the barrel of that one has grooves about .458.
I shoot .395 balls from my Patterson the chambers are reamed so much because of the diameter of the rifling grooves in the barrel. (Thought I'd throw that in.)
There aren't many cap&ballers that have the chambers sized the same as the rifling grooves in the barrels. Most cap&ball revolver chambers are under sized.
The distressed finish Pietta's are some that are sized the same in the chambers/rifling grooves as well as the Pietta "Shooters Model" Remington, and the Pedersoli Remington as well as the Uberti Pocket Navy and Police and the Belgian Centennial 1860 Colt Army.
The Pietta Distressed Finish guns have a special hardening so they don't rust. Thought I'd throw that in. Harder metal. Rifling grooves shallow at .003 too.
Target guns have shallow grooves so the gases seal better and the balls are deformed less in the barrel and flying thru the air with the lands and grooves engraved into the balls. Sorta like the stiches of a baseball making fer curve balls the engraved rifling on the barrels does that too. That is a reason fer the high end target cap&ballers to have shallow grooves.
I asked once about that at a manufacturer and a Rodgers and Spencer was said to have rifling only .001 deep. Chambers .001 smaller than groove diameter fer some reason if I remember right. The Remington had .003 deep grooves and the chambers the same diameter if I remember right.
Anywhooooo......Walkers shoot better with the chambers the same as the rifling grooves or .001-.003 in. bigger than the grooves.
I stuck a taller sight in the front of my Walker to get point of aim the same as point of impact.
I had a ball mould made by Lee Precision that throws balls at .472 inch. I had to buy the tungsten ball used to size the finished mould holes and Lee keeps it.
When I want some .472 ball moulds fer Walkers it costs a hundred bucks fer set up fee. I don't buy that many like some people do that get specialty moulds from Lee.
Dixie Gun Works sell scissors type moulds that can be had in any .001 inch increments. No sprue cutter though so you clip with wire cutters.
Anywhoooo..I filed a groove in my loading lever spring(lever stays up)...reamed the chambers of(few .001's over the groove diameter)....concentric to the bore forcing coned the breech end of the barrel at 11 degrees...concentric to the bore the muzzle end and the same with the crown...and trigger job and casehardened the frame with the bone and wood method like the real stuff....raised the front sight and lowered and widdened the rear sight and use lube pills under the balls to keep it spinning and barrel clean enough and use 45gr.FFFg and .....I don't complain bout it much since the mid eighties.

Last edited by enyaw; January 14, 2014 at 11:01 AM.
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Old January 14, 2014, 10:56 AM   #12
Rigmarol
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Quote:
Quote:
VTI has the part for over $30 bucks so I ordered 3 so I felt better about the shipping cost. LOL.
Holy smokes! The wedge is $30? I do believe I'd try making one from scratch for that cost.

That is fantastic shooting at 20 yards!

Steve
Yeah, I was surprised at the price as well. I thought about making one as well but just don't have the time before I need it fixed.

It might have been 18 to 20 yards I just paced it off. Shot it one two handed standing.

I shot my first loads into a small paper saucer sized plate and the group was so good I put a couple playing cards out. The stars were in alignment that day!
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Old January 14, 2014, 10:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Rigmarol- that's some nice shooting!

SickMick- welcome to the forum. Be warned- 'a' blackpowder revolver has the ability to turn into many blackpowder revolvers.............they are addictive.
Thanks, I was happy with the group. Not all days are so good I'm afraid.

Not only are BP revolvers "addictive" I swear the reproduce in the dark! (at least I tell the wife that when another one shows up and she notices it.)
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Old January 14, 2014, 11:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Is a pistol with the loading lever a "walker" dragoon? I thought that if there was not a loading lever it was a walker but it there was a catch it was a second our third model dragoon. And is there a difference between the three as far as the size of the b/p load is concerned?
First was the Walker. A huge revolver designed specifically to take down a horse as well as a man. Then came the Dragoon as an improvement over the Walker for a number of reasons. Then the second Gen Dragoon with the most noticable improvement being the cylinder notches going from ovals to rectangular which hasn't changed on any revolvers since for the most part. Then many small changes on multiple versions of the 3rd Generation Dragoon.

Dragoons are "newer" than the Walker.
Dragoons are "smaller" than the Walker.

All other BP revolvers are smaller than both the Walker and the Dragoon and all still have a loading lever. Loading levers went away after the metallic cartridge took over.

At my Cowboy matches, I shoot with Kirst's .45Colt conversions installed and I tape the loading levers up with black electrical tape. I want to shoot with powder and ball but the match goes so quickly, I can't reload fast enough. I'll get there one day I'm sure.


Walker has a bad loading lever design and it was probably the worst feature on the gun and was changed when the Dragoon came out.

The Dragoon's loading lever stays better but still can drop when fired. However, the basic design of how the lever is retained continued in later BP revolvers but I believe because they were smaller with less stress put on them, they didn't have the same dropping problem as the Dragoon did.

Levers can be fixed to stay put. Just takes a little loving attention and paying attention to the needs of your particular gun.

The Walker can take a nominal 60gns of Black Powder and the Dragoon about 50gns. You can get more in with compression but most shooter prefer less.

The first Walkers are said to have had a problem with exploding. And it's also said that is why the Dragoon was designed to hold less powder. If true it worked. I tend to believe that the metals were still a bit weaker than came about later and I don't have a problem shooting full loads in either gun.

[Use your head, fully understand what you are doing before pulling the trigger. We are all grown men responsible for our own fingers so don't take my word for anything, do your own research and think it through]

Both the Walker and the Dragoon shoot the .44cal round ball. Some guns are pickier others are not. I'm lucky. I have half a dozen .44cal revolvers that all like the same round ball that drops out of Lee's rb mold. I've not had to do any special work to any of my guns and I feel quite lucky when I hear others going through extensive modifications and special molds and such. I'll take my blessings where I find them.
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Old January 14, 2014, 11:26 AM   #15
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Quote:
Just last year I bought a 1860 wedge from Dixie for about $10.
Some where, someone also had just the spring listed.
p.s. only 5 holes an the ace of harts
I had some trouble with a wedge in another gun and also found one for about $12 about a year or more ago. I was surprised at the price myself.

There is still a wedge on VTI for about $12 and I emailed VTI asking if it would fit my Uberti. They said in writing no. It was for the ASM Walker not the Uberti. The pictures of both look the same except the Uberti was blued. I don't trust the pictures as they are just for reference so I bit the bullet and ordered 3 wedges. 1 for the Walker and 2 to keep as spares. They fit my two Dragoons as well.

I also found the spring by it self but it was not long enough for the Dragoon wedge. It was for the smaller colts. I asked and they did not carry another size spring.

If I had the spring steel I probably could make one just fine but my mill is buried under junk and I've been too busy with other things and I want to shoot! So, I dug deep and paid the man.

5 holes in the card was because I practice the same way I shoot in my Cowboy matches. We load up only 5 rounds and have the hammer down on an empty chamber. I know, there are safe ways to carry 6 rounds but this is the easiest way to get a group of weekend cowboys to be safe all the same way. If I practice the same way I compete, there is less chance I will "brain-fart" and load too many chambers. A personal choice, not a sermon to others who think differently.
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Old January 14, 2014, 05:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
A huge revolver designed specifically to take down a horse as well as a man.
I do not think this is true. The Walker is known as a "horse pistol" not because it was intended to shoot horses, but because it was intended to be carried and used from horseback.

Quote:
The first Walkers are said to have had a problem with exploding. And it's also said that is why the Dragoon was designed to hold less powder. If true it worked. I tend to believe that the metals were still a bit weaker than came about later and I don't have a problem shooting full loads in either gun.
Absolutely. Colt invented and patented a steel alloy they called "silver steel" for use in the 1860 Army to enable smaller, lighter cylinders.

Steve
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Old January 14, 2014, 05:31 PM   #17
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^^^

The above is all true except Walker wanted a pistol that would kill a horse @ 100 yds. Colt designed/built it. Walker wanted to shoot the horses out from under the Indians and keep them on the ground. They were too dangerous riding around on horses shooting @ the Rangers. The pistols were also carried (not always) on a saddle holster.

At the time the Colt/Walker was introduced, most had never seen a pistol. Designed to shoot conicals. Many of the mishaps with these pistols were due to owners loading the conicals in the cylinders backwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Walker

FWIW

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Old January 14, 2014, 08:50 PM   #18
maillemaker
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Quote:
The above is all true except Walker wanted a pistol that would kill a horse @ 100 yds.
Has anyone seen anything to substantiate this? I believe this is has been assumed by the pistols being called "horse pistols".

http://lewis-clark.org/content/conte...ArticleID=2380
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flintlock#Pistols
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/horse-pistol

Large pistols were not called "horse pistols" because they could shoot horses, but because they were so large they were intended to be carried and used on horse.

This nomenclature predates the revolver.

Steve
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Old January 14, 2014, 11:29 PM   #19
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Mailmaker, with respect, it doesn't much matter to me if you think it's "true" or not.

However, here's some links for your reading pleasure.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...e-walker-colt/

Quote:
Walker turned to Colt to provide pistols suitable for his horse soldiers: a revolver capable of dispatching enemy soldiers and their horses.
Quote:
He was on hand when the Walker demonstrated its capabilities at dealing with enemy equines. Walking through camp, Walker advised a green trooper to uncap his revolver. Moments later, there was a loud report and the trooper’s horse fell dead on the spot-neatly drilled between the running lights by a picket bullet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Walker

Quote:
Walker was engaged in the Mexican-American War as a captain in the United States Mounted Rifles. He approached Colt, requesting a large revolver to replace the single-shot Aston Johnson holster pistols then in use. The desired .44-.45 caliber revolver would be carried in saddle mounted holsters and would be large enough to dispatch horses as well as enemy soldiers.
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/...t-dragoon.html

Quote:
He persuaded Samuel Colt to increase the caliber of the weapon from .36 to .44 or .45, so that it could not only be used to kill enemies, but also the horses that they were riding on.
12:40
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Old January 15, 2014, 11:14 AM   #20
enyaw
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Howdy!
I have to say a thing bout the cap&ballers in regards to Rigmarols assumtion he's lucky with his cap&ballers not needin any work.
It's not unusual for an Hombre to be satisfied with the guns the way they come from the factory out of the box. I have a few that way.
Thing is.....almost all of them are machined at the factory to have chambers smaller than the barrels groove diameter to the rifling.
That makes for gases to blow out at the muzzle inconsistantly like a bad crown would only due to fouling it would be like a bad crown that keeps changing from shot to shot.
Anywhoooo....I tend to believe balls(bullets) are better shootin when they fit a barrel correctly.
Anywhoooo.....I can't see how anyone can be lucky to any real degree of satisfaction when most all the repo cap&ballers come with undersized chambers. You may get lucky and shoot good one day.or one hour or whatever but then....comes the day the gun seems to want to be contrary and miss most everything.
When the balls fit the barrel,and fouling is minimized with some proceedure, the gun shoots relatively good all the time. Gets consistant.
It can be a trial and a pain in the ... to ream chambers,or find someone to do it correctly, in yer cap&ballers and one is not as tried if they take them the way they come from the box and can be satisfied with how they operate.
Thast'sagoodpoint to bring upwhen spomeone like me that likes totinker and work to improve the guns mentione all the rigamarow bout gunsmithing the cap&ballers.
They ain't all that bad the way they come from the box these days. Things have improved in the Cap&Baller world since I started into it in the mid eighties. I have a few revolvers I never did anything to and enjoy shooting them that way since they shoot well enough. I have a Uberti Navy Colt that has a chamber size at .369 inch and barrel grooves at .366 inch. It shoots really well all the time. If it doesn't it's me and not the gun.
Anywhoooo......the Walkers seem to be the ones with the smallest chambers compared to the barrels rifling grooves. Maybe because they hold so much powder and the smaller ball vents pressure for safety sake. Dragoos seem to have smaller chambers compared to the barrelsgrooves too. Like the more powder they hold the more gases/pressure they can vent.
Of course I asked Val Forget(Navy Arms) once why the Italian cap&ballers all seem to have undersized chambers and he said it was because of subsequent shots with the black powder. Meaning fouling I'd guess. Fouling can play havoc with accuracy. That's why I learned to contend with the fouling with lube pills on the powder. When looking for the best accuracy and consistancy the guns would deliver I got tired of using the ramrod after every shot to clean the barrel and the chamber.
I stumbled intothe idea ofthe arbors being at the bottom of the hole when the barrels lug was on the frame and that was a boon to improving the accuracy. I figured the barrels could move around when fired thru even if the wedge stayed tight since there was space to move about in.
Anywhoooo...the only mouldI need to dig deep fer are the .464 in size and the ,472 size.
The .464,for anyone that might want one, is still sold by RCBS. Rapine did sell them also but they are closed now. The .472 mould fer the big ole Walkers that come with the biggest differance between chambers and barrel grooves is hard to come by.
I can't help it. I ain't lucky much when it comes to having to spiff up my cap&ballers revolvers. Course I do like to improve them. Very satisfying to say the least.
A cap&baller that can shoot from the bench and get 3/4 inch groups is cool. A squirrel in the pot from a good shot from yer trusty ole cap&baller is cool to. They taste better when they are dispatched with a cap&baller.
I read that the steel used to replace the iron used in the Walker cylinders was silver spring steel made only in Sheffield England and was used first by Colt when the Dragoons were made. It was steel that could be made only around Sheffield because of the raw materials they had in the area. It was awhile before a rendition of that steel could be made in America. There was trouble in America making the type furnace Englad had too. The Bessimer furnace I thunkit was.
I thought,because the improved steel was used in the Dragoon cylinders, that the Dragoon cylinders were a lil shorter due to trying to reduce the weight the Walker had.
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Old January 15, 2014, 12:46 PM   #21
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Rigmarol, I'm fully aware of the common refrain that, "they were meant to shoot horses" and have seen it written many times before.

Like the others I have seen, none of the sources you provide give a citation the same assertion they all make (that Walker wanted to shoot horses), which is why I asked for a citation.

I've heard lots of people claim that the reason they were called "horse pistols" is because they were used to shoot horses. This is not true. "Horse pistols" were so-called because they were intended to be carried on saddle holsters for use on horseback.

I wonder if this same misinterpretation is responsible for the thought that Walker wanted them to shoot horses, which is why I would like to see a citation that supports the claim.

Steve
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Old January 15, 2014, 12:49 PM   #22
maillemaker
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enyaw:

Instead of typing "Anywhoooo" to indicate a new paragraph, you might consider just tapping the Enter key twice. Makes for much easier reading than a "wall of text".



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Old January 15, 2014, 12:58 PM   #23
Rigmarol
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Anyhoo...

I'm happy with the info Mailmaker. So I'll be moving on.

Oh, frustrated english teachers shouldn't hang out in online forums. They get everyone confused by correcting Grammers und spelings... LOL.
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Old January 15, 2014, 02:00 PM   #24
maillemaker
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Quote:
I'm happy with the info Mailmaker. So I'll be moving on.
Fine by me. Just be aware that it may not be substantiated information. As a history buff I like sources for my information rather than parroting "common knowledge".

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Old January 15, 2014, 08:57 PM   #25
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^^^ Steve (Maillemaker)

I too am a student of history and enjoy "jousting" with others who are also.

The term "Horse pistol" has been around long before the Colt/Walker. Any dictionary definition you look up, will say, "A pistol carried by horsemen" or similar.

It is (or sure seems to be) a fact that Walker did indeed want a pistol to kill the enemy as well as their horses. The link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Walker is a link to the encyclopedia which clearly states, "would be large enough to dispatch horses as well as enemy soldiers". Is the info in an encyclopedia not considered a "citation"?

I think all the confusion here is not within the origin of the term, it's simply that Walker put a new "spin" on it.

Sincerely,

Birch
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