Condition and Appearance of CMP M1911A1's

[lamarw]

We just had a forum discussion of various opinions of subject pistols. Some thought they would be akin to a bucket of rusty old guns. Some of us are hoping for better appearance and functional condition of the old warhorses.

I admit they are not for everyone and nicer condition and even brand new 1911's can be had far less money. The nostalgia bug is the reason some of us want one of the CMP M1911A1's.

I just discovered this link today with some isolated pictures of the M1911A1's to be either sold or auctioned. The NRA article and few pictures might provide some insight as to what to expect if you are in this market.

Here is a link: https://www.americanrifleman.org/art...-inside-story/

[TunnelRat]

My only comment is figuring out how indicative of the whole those specific pictures are is always the issue. The same is true for buying surplus pistols from the big distributors online. Now in my experience the CMP is a lot more fair in its gradings than many others. I think you're probably okay in being a but optimistic, but just remember the actual descriptions are what you are guaranteed. There will be variance in the quality even within each grade level.

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[lamarw]

I agree, and the few pictures are better looking examples than some I have carried and my expectations. Most of the pictures are from the better condition museum lot vs. the GSA lots.

[rock185]

I was issued 1911A1s, and much later had three, 1033 program, 1911A1s in the PD armory. I'm not trying to buy one, but am glad to see that our government is finally, and undoubtedly with great trepidation, allowing citizens to purchase these guns. While I'm not in for one, I'm looking forward to seeing the guns received and hearing the new owner's comments. I have little doubt they will sell all made available for release, and we'll soon see them at twice the price on auction sites.

[Red Devil]

Forged parkerized steel and a match grade Stainless steel Bbl/bushing.

NIB for $500.

Collectors - are psychotic.






Red

[Martowski]

Unfortunately that beautiful NIB Springfield never served with Uncle Sam. Just like people who own classic cars, they own it because if what it is, not because it's the best function for the money. A 2018 Toyota Corolla will get you down the road with greater comfort and better economy than a 1972 Chevelle. But, the Corolla ain't no Chevelle. The analogy might not stand up to every nitpick argument, but you probably see what I'm getting at here.

[lamarw]

^^^^ What he said. It will mostly like appreciated and continue to do so over the years. Whereas, the Springfield and my Remington R1 will not.

[lamarw]

CMP has announced they have over 17,000 applicant packages. There are only 8,000 pistols in various conditions for this year. There is a possibility this will be the only year. Lets hope not.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Martowski

Unfortunately that beautiful NIB Springfield never served with Uncle Sam. Just like people who own classic cars, they own it because if what it is, not because it's the best function for the money.

I've never really understood the reverence some have for guns that were used by the military. When you're buying from the CMP, you're not getting the provenance of the gun -- you will generally know NOTHING about the history of the weapon. You may not even know whether the weapon was used by a particular unit or was something that stayed in an MP's or SP's holster for most of it service life. I am a Vietnam Era vet ('61-'65) and became a military history buff; my respect and reverence is for the men and women who used the weapons or supported the troops who used them, not for the weapons.

Over the years I've had friends who have gotten M1 Garands from the CMP. They got them because 1) they were familiar with the Garands from their time in the Army or Marines, 2) similar guns weren't available elsewhere, 3) the Garands shot a round that was easy to buy or reload for, 4) if you needed parts they were easily obtained, and 5) the CMP prices were very reasonable. They love their Garands -- and shoot them. (Two of them later picked up the more costly M1Cs, and love them even more!)

Although there were about 2,000,000 1911A1s made during WWII I haven't seen the total number that at will eventually be offered thru the CMP program. The following is from a link on the web. The link is shown, below.

CMP 1911 PRICING:

CMP has priced the 1911 type pistols at fair market value in accordance with CMP’s enabling legislation.

Service Grade $1050. Pistol may exhibit minor pitting and wear on exterior surfaces and friction surfaces. Grips are complete with no cracks. Pistol is in issuable condition.

Field Grade $950. Pistol may exhibit minor rust, pitting, and wear on exterior surfaces and friction surfaces. Grips are complete with no cracks. Pistol is in issuable condition.

Rack Grade $850. Pistol will exhibit rust, pitting, and wear on exterior surfaces and friction surfaces. Grips may be incomplete and exhibit cracks. Pistol requires minor work to return to issuable condition.

Auction Grade (Sales will to be determined by auctioning the pistol). The condition of the auction pistol will be described when posted for auction. Note: If you have already purchased a 1911 from CMP you will not be allowed to purchase an auction 1911. If you purchase an auction 1911, your name will be pulled from the sequenced list. No repeat purchasers are allowed until all orders received have been filled.

The shipping cost is included in the price.

Read more: https://www.recoilweb.com/cmp-1911-p...#ixzz5TrPNsqPN

As you can see, these aren't likely to be collectible weapons -- some of them sound downright ratty, like some of the dregs you can find on the Century Arms website. You can buy some pretty nice 1911s in that price range -- and get a warranty, too. The link says that only 8,000 will be available for the first year's LOTTERY.

[lamarw]

Walt, You share the same viewpoint of a majority of folks I have read post regarding these firearms. I respect your and other opinions on the subject; although I hold a different one. It is not provenance but rather nostalgia. The same as folks who cherish and want an older classic car from our younger years.

The article I provided a link to in my thread starter above seems to indicate in words and with pictures the condition of at least example of these pistol. Like the cars of yester-year they are not something to compare with newer cars or in this case 1911's. They are a different breed.

The simple fact there are over 17,000 packages submitted for a chance to the CMP to obtain 1 of only 8,000 available.

[TunnelRat]

Like the cars of yester-year they are not something to compare with newer cars or in this case 1911's. They are a different breed.

I kind of disagree. Part of the appeal of older cars is those models aren't being made anymore. That's not true with 1911s. The only difference really here is history, and while these pistols certainly have more history than anything new production, you don't know the history of the pistol you get, unlike you might a car. If people want one fair enough.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

I kind of disagree. Part of the appeal of older cars is those models aren't being made anymore. That's not true with 1911s. The only difference really here is history, and while these pistols certainly have more history than anything new production, you don't know the history of the pistol you get, unlike you might a car. If people want one fair enough.

Good logic, I can't just go out and buy a newer version of the Geo Metro convertible because they've been totally discontinued, but I can go and buy about any variant of the 1911 as a reproduction firearm.

The only appeal is the 1911 may have been used on Normandy beach, but the likelihood is that it was once used to pistol whip a Korean pimp by an MP after the pimp tried to cover for a couple AWOL soldiers.

[Old 454]

Honoring our men and weman that served our country during war time or peace time is the right thing to do.
But there is something special about the weapons they used.
I have several old battle rifles.
Part of owning them is just imagining the man or woman that carried it battle ..what they seen..what they went through.
Part of the mistique I guess is not really knowing ...but just use your inagination.

[Road_Clam]

Me personally have no desire for the CPM 1911. I never served (tried to enlist in 1984 but got denied from not meeting the vision standard ). Don't get me wrong, I absolutely LOVE vintage militaria rifles as I own a CMP M1 Special, new production M1A Loaded, Rock River 1903A4 , Yugo M98 8mm , Ishy Mosin 91/30, and a SA 1911 in 9mm. I buy weekly shooters and I have no desire for "collectibles". If my M1 falls over and bounces off my concrete basement floor, I will be very pissed but I won't jump off a bridge because I just ruined a valuable "collector" specimen. Paying $1k for a surplus 1911 having NO idea what I will get is just not of interest. However I do very much respect those of you that served under the guard of your issued 1911 and have the want to just reminisce and admire a CMP 1911.

[polyphemus]

It would help the conversation to know what anyone who is buying a CMP M1911A1 intends to do with it.

[KyJim]

I've never really understood the reverence some have for guns that were used by the military.

The same could be said of any antique. Yet, the right kind of antique furniture sells at many times the price of similar furniture made today. By definition, a person is buying something that cannot be made again, a service weapon made or used during the WWI through Vietnam War era (most made in WW II, I presume). The lack of specific history may actually be a plus for most of these pistols. An owner can fantasize that his or her pistol was used in the Battle of the Bulge or on some other field of battle. It's a piece of history, even if its exact place in history is unknown --- just like an ancient Roman sword. It's also a conversation piece.

I didn't get on the CMP list but I understand why a lot of folks did.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by KyJim

By definition, a person is buying something that cannot be made again, a service weapon made or used during the WWI through Vietnam War era (most made in WW II, I presume).

That's certainly true with antique furniture, clocks, china, and art objects -- especially when specific artists, technicians, or craftspeople were involved. I've always thought that the most valued antiques tended to be especially well-crafted and unique pieces that were in pristine condition. It's clearly less true with things made on an assembly line, but they can still be valued and in demand.

That some old things have value isn't just because they're old or not made any more, but because they were unique in how they were made, relatively few were made, or because they can't be made cost-effectively nowadays; in a few cases, it's also because few people have the know how to make them! It may also be because for many of these items there's just no demand for newer versions: pieces that are just OLD don't always command attention or high prices.)

And with regard to 1911A1s used by U.S. military units, they can and have been made again-- just for different types of combat. The last unit still using 1911A1s -- the Marine Special Operations Command (MARSOC) -- dropped their 1911s in 2016. Other U.S. Special Operations units also had access to similar weapons if they needed them for a number of years.

While the gun makers were different, the quality of the newer 1911A1 purchased for Special Ops use are arguably of a higher quality than the CMP guns when they were new. About the only thing that really surprised me when several units went to 1911A1s some years back was that they didn't also go to double-stack versions, as those been used in the gun games for a decade or two with good results.

As another participant in this discussion wrote, what many people are buying is nostalgia. Nostalgia is a powerful force, and a lot of folks pine for the "Good Old Days." I generally think The Good Old Days were seldom as good as most people remember (or think they were), but if things, today aren't going as well as you might like, the "good old days" might seem GOLDEN!!

[Martowski]

I have a 1916 DWM Luger as well, and I have no idea what its specific history is. It may have been carried by an Imperial German officer and returned to stock after the war, or it may have sat in a storage crate. Who knows? But, I can tell you that part of what I like about it is the fact that it's an original, Imperial German Luger that was once in the inventory of a major power during WWI. I would NOT think the same if Ruger suddenly decided to start making a reproduction Luger.

I get what you guys are saying about not being into the CMP guns, and completely respect that. However, like so many people have brought up, wanting one instead of a NIB Springfield from Cabela's is not something out of the ordinary. Like the antiques analogy above, sometimes the cool old piece of furniture you find at the yard sale is just "neater" than buying the new piece from the store... even if you don't know it's specific heritage.

Kind of like when some guy says "why own a 1911 when you can own a Glock?" Sometimes you just want something.

[Wag]

Sometimes you just want something.

That's where I'm at. I'd like to be able to shoot it, but I do want a piece of this history. For some reason, I thought the supply would outstrip demand, though. Maybe I need my head examined.

--Wag--

[MarkCO]

Completely anecdotal, but when I ran the American Marksman competition, we held the finals at CMP Talladega. Two of the courses used CMP guns. I had them shoot .30 Carbines and .45 ACPs. The .45s were from this batch that they had received for evaluation. They looked decent and shot decent. Sure there were only three of them total, but I was told they were not hand selected, just three samples on top of a crate.

I am not a collector, so I have no interest in getting one, but it was pretty cool to shoot them and the competitors enjoyed the opportunity as well.

[T. O'Heir]

Never seen any military firearm that was shipped with a magazine inserted. That being considered loaded and all.
Kind of doubt that packaging would keep 'em from being damaged too. Basically loose in a big box. They'd slide around every time the box was moved.
Anyway, issue 1911A1's are really junk as shooters(had one long ago). Sights are tiny. Triggers poor. Barrels are poor as well. Except that they routinely sell for $2500US plus as collector pieces they're not really a great buy to shoot.

[Fishbed77]

It would help the conversation to know what anyone who is buying a CMP M1911A1 intends to do with it.

I image you'll see quite a few of them on Gunbroker before too long.

[lamarw]

^^^^^ What Fishbed77 stated. Over the next few years, they will be selling for significantly more that the alleged ridiculous price CMP established.

If this does occur, it will establish CMP offered a very reasonable price to the few winning the lottery for a M1911A1.

[highpower3006]

I too, think that as time goes by the price that the CMP is asking for these will seem more and more reasonable. I currently have seven USP 1911's and so I haven't been interested in buying one of these, but I am interested in seeing what they will sell for on the secondary market.

As I see it, those that equate a current Springfield (or any other new 1911) with these actual government issue guns, just don't get it and probably never will. They are truly the type of people that would rather buy a Camry instead of a Chevelle because in their minds both cars do the same thing.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by highpower3006

I too, think that as time goes by the price that the CMP is asking for these will seem more and more reasonable. I currently have seven USP 1911's and so I haven't been interested in buying one of these, but I am interested in seeing what they will sell for on the secondary market.

As I see it, those that equate a current Springfield (or any other new 1911) with these actual government issue guns, just don't get it and probably never will. They are truly the type of people that would rather buy a Camry instead of a Chevelle because in their minds both cars do the same thing.

I disagree. I may not be eager for one of these but I still can acknowledge the difference between a Camry and a Chevelle. My point is, to use the car analogy, this is a world where I can still buy a Chevelle, albeit a new Chevelle without the history. That doesn't mean I don't understand what a Chevelle does that a Camry doesn't. I still own 1911s and other classic pistols despite also owning a Glock.

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