The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old July 28, 2009, 09:42 PM   #1
StiveC2007
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 17, 2009
Posts: 237
Rotating barrel

Alright ive seen some guns that have listed them as having a rotating barrel, saw an STI with one and a beretta PX4. So how does it work and is it better than a regular gun with a non rotating barrel. So if you guys don't mind please inform me about this
StiveC2007 is offline  
Old July 28, 2009, 09:53 PM   #2
A1A
Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2008
Posts: 51
The Beretta cougar has a camming block below the barrel with an angled groove. The barrel has a pin that inserts in this groove.

After you fire, both the slide and barrel recoil together as they are locked but the pin traveling down the groove rotates the barrel unlocking the barrel lugs from the slide. The barrel hits a stopping block and the slide continues, ejecting case and reloading.

On the return the pin follows the groove and rotates again, locking the barrel lugs into the slide. WaaLaa!!
A1A is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 12:16 AM   #3
Boats
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 964
I have had two rotating barrel pistols now, the Beretta 8045 Cougar and the Beretta PX4 Storm in 9mm.

I like the operation of the rotating barrel, as in its mechanics compared to the modern tilt locking systems that all depend on a massive rectangular chamber hood locking into the ejection port. It may be subjective, but I feel the rotating barrel pistols shooter softer, in that the recoil is not as jerky in an up and down fashion and the sights seem to come back onto target a little quicker.

The rotating barrel is not a newfangled concept. It was first used in the Steyr-Hahn M1911/12

Boats is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 02:41 AM   #4
greyson97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,284
the px4 barrel rotates about 35 degrees counter clockwise after the slide travels back about half an inch. there is a curved groove on the underside of the barrel housing block, and a cam that is fitted onto the end of the spring/guide rod.
__________________
"Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy

si vis pacem, para bellum
greyson97 is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 04:13 AM   #5
ChicagoTex
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
I feel the rotating barrel pistols shooter softer, in that the recoil is not as jerky in an up and down fashion and the sights seem to come back onto target a little quicker.
The more gradual nature of the unlocking in a rotating barrel design does, indeed, help mitigate recoil. In 9mm, it's not terribly noticeable IMO, but in .40 and .45 it's pretty obvious.

Beyond that subtle advantage, I don't think the rotating barrel design is really "better" per se than a standard tilt-lock design.

My advice and attitude is to buy the gun you like overall - regardless of locking system.
ChicagoTex is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 08:02 AM   #6
magnum force
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2009
Posts: 273
the storms i fired kick about the same as others of the same caliber. that rotary barrel does little more than complicate the gun's design.

the storm, however is still not all that popular compared to glock, mp, hk's...etc.

storm owners i know mention reliability and manufacturer defect issues with their storms. and beretta customer serv is hit or miss.
magnum force is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 09:38 AM   #7
NYPD13
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2008
Posts: 370
I've got a Savage 1917 which uses a rotating barrel which upon discharge rotates approx 30 degrees before allowing the breach to open and the slide to continue backward extracting and ejecting the case. This rotating design is considered delayed blowback as opposed to the locked breach design in tilt barreled pistols. There's an arguement that rotating barrels are more accurate as there is little movement between the slide/barrel and the axis of the bore does not change upon firing. With my shooting abilities I've not noticed a difference either way (it is a pocket pistol after all).
__________________
"THE CONSTITUTION ONLY GIVES PEOPLE THE RIGHT TO PURSUE HAPPINESS, YOU HAVE TO CATCH IT YOURSELF." ~BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.
NYPD13 is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 11:11 AM   #8
magnum force
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2009
Posts: 273
yeah beretta advertises that the rotary barrel increases accuracy and the storms i've fired are accurate-but no more so than glocks, hk's,sig, mp's....
magnum force is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 11:16 AM   #9
magnum force
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2009
Posts: 273
beretta had the rotary barrel in the cougar that they stopped making due to poor sales. not sure why they're trying the same design again with the only change being the interchangable backstraps lol

Last edited by magnum force; July 29, 2009 at 11:22 AM.
magnum force is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 01:12 PM   #10
ChicagoTex
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
that rotary barrel does little more than complicate the gun's design.
It's not very complicated at all, actually. No more so than a tilt-locking system anyway.

Quote:
the storm, however is still not all that popular compared to glock, mp, hk's...etc.
So what?

Quote:
storm owners i know mention reliability and manufacturer defect issues with their storms. and beretta customer serv is hit or miss.
are these the same nutballs who claim their SIG 220s turn into rattle traps after 1000 rounds or so? Perhaps they don't know how to maintain their guns?

Quote:
yeah beretta advertises that the rotary barrel increases accuracy and the storms i've fired are accurate-but no more so than glocks, hk's,sig, mp's....
Beretta has never advertised the rotary barrel improves accuracy to the best of my knowledge. It's just some theory random people made up - and I agree, there's no evidence for it.

Quote:
beretta had the rotary barrel in the cougar that they stopped making due to poor sales.
The Cougar wasn't a sales flop because of it's rotating-barrel locking system, it was a sales flop because of poor marketing and bad timing.

Quote:
not sure why they're trying the same design again with the only change being the interchangable backstraps lol
Your obvious ignorance is apalling. The PX4 first and foremost (and most obvious to everyone but you, apparently) has a polymer frame instead of the aluminum for the Cougar. The overall ergonomics are much improved, and the trigger linkage is a significant change from the Cougar (which was a slightly minaturized version of the 92 linkage).

You sound like someone who's never seen a PX4 or Cougar, much less fired one.
ChicagoTex is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 01:40 PM   #11
greyson97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 29, 2009
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,284
the way hes bashing on the PX4, it sounds like a px4 stole his girlfriend and left him dateless for the prom
__________________
"Some people think they can outsmart me. Maybe, maybe. I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." -Heavy

si vis pacem, para bellum
greyson97 is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 01:54 PM   #12
Csaari77
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2009
Location: Huntsville, AL.
Posts: 5
The cougar is still made. Beretta transfered production of the pistol to their Stoeger facility in Turkey. It is the same gun using the same tooling with a different name stamped on it.
__________________
Beretta M9
Beretta 8000D Mini Cougar
Csaari77 is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 06:59 PM   #13
daferg2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2008
Location: Western Arkansas
Posts: 290
Quote:
the way hes bashing on the PX4, it sounds like a px4 stole his girlfriend and left him dateless for the prom
Nah, I think PX4 just doesn't sound serious enough for him. It's got to say things like "champion", "expert", or "pursuader" on the side or it's no good

Unlike the folks that "heard" or "know people", I've actually own both a PX4 and a Cougar. They work as well as any other sidearm I've ever own (currently 30 handguns). Perceived recoil may be less (it's sure not worse). Accuracy is at least on par with every other duty-type pistol I have, and I've never had a failure to anything. I like 'em and would sell off a lot of others first.
daferg2 is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 07:24 PM   #14
Boats
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 964
Quote:
the way hes bashing on the PX4, it sounds like a px4 stole his girlfriend and left him dateless for the prom
Prom? I was thinking a junior high school dance myself.

Besides, anyone who is a fan of the M&P series prattling on about the PX4's "defects" has no credibility. At the minimum, my PX4's dustcover doesn't droop towards the deck like my wife's M&P.
Boats is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 08:01 PM   #15
Bart Noir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 5, 2000
Location: Puget Sound, USA
Posts: 2,215
Boats, it is just the .45 M&P that has that issue, right? At least, that is what I remember. Is hers one of the other models?

My M&P 9Compact is too short to droop!

And I am another one that has both the Cougar (Stoeger in 9mm) and the Px4 (in .40 caliber). I think highly of them and do notice that they seem to be soft-shooting pistols.

Bart Noir
Who will bring up the Ballister-Molina from Mexico, a rotating barrel sort-of 1911 design. Does anyone have one of those?
__________________
Be of good cheer and mindful of your gun muzzle!
Bart Noir is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 12:55 AM   #16
Boats
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 964
My wife's is a M&P9 and it droops about a millimeter off of straight right at the end of the dustcover. It doesn't affect its performance, but it looks like ass.

It's not as bad as the 45's legendary droop, but it is there.

Boats is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 02:50 AM   #17
LockedBreech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Rocky Mountain West
Posts: 3,395
"storm owners i know mention reliability and manufacturer defect issues with their storm"

Here's one that doesn't mention any such thing! I put my thousandth round through my Storm the other day, and that's 1000 out of 1000 with no problems whatsoever.

Also, having shot .40 S&W in 4 different guns, I can definitely confirm a reduction in felt recoil.

Though your note about Beretta USA customer service is not entirely off base. They do need to do some work there.

'tis all I have to say!
__________________
16 Pistols, 5 Rifles, 1 Shotgun, no time to shoot them
LockedBreech is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 03:24 AM   #18
HiBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 13, 2006
Posts: 8,273
Long enough ago that it cost me about $80 new
I had a MAB PA-15
French,9mm,doublestack ,SA,rotary bbl lock.

It was a nice piece,wish I still had it.
HiBC is online now  
Old July 30, 2009, 03:35 AM   #19
ReNtaPiG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2009
Posts: 310
I'm not going to bash the PX4, mainly because I liked it when it was in my hands.

BUT common sense dictates...more moving parts = more opportunity for wear and therefore eventual failure

I mentioned before during my hunt for a DA/SA firearm I narrowed my choice down to the PX4 "G" and the FNP-9

I ended up with the FNP-9 and I don't regret one bit of that decision!!
ReNtaPiG is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 04:35 AM   #20
Yoosta B. Blue
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2008
Location: Just a tad NE of the Alamo...
Posts: 252
I'm looking forward to taking my new PX4 (.45) out for another spin later this morning. I have a confession to make -- with another .45 that I had, there was little joy, and I used to be blue. But I have absolutely fallen in love with this gun! I'm a big fan of the rotating barrel and am sooo glad that I went with the PX4 when it came time to get another 45 to enjoy. This weapon rocks! You go, Beretta!

Yoosta B. Blue
Yoosta B. Blue is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 09:05 AM   #21
Boats
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 964


About 55 actual parts when you don't count the multiple backstraps, mag catch button options, mainspring cap choice, or magazine baseplate option. More parts in the slide than the FNP, but fewer in the frame and fire control group.




About 53 here for the FNP, (counting the magazine like Beretta does) but look at that pile of tiny bits that makes up the firing control housing subassembly.

The Beretta looks far more robust to me, especially since the PX4 uses a real hammer mainspring and the FNP apparently uses two little torsion springs to power the hammer, parts 27 and 28.
Boats is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 11:45 AM   #22
ChicagoTex
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2008
Location: DFW Metroplex
Posts: 1,909
Quote:
BUT common sense dictates...more moving parts = more opportunity for wear and therefore eventual failure
and on top of boats' contribution I'll point out the even the locking system itself actually contains no more moving parts than a standard tilt-locker.

Logic - you're doin' it wrong.
ChicagoTex is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 12:25 PM   #23
torpeau
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 13, 2007
Location: Left coast of FL
Posts: 434
Quote:
Long enough ago that it cost me about $80 new
I had a MAB PA-15
French,9mm,doublestack ,SA,rotary bbl lock.

It was a nice piece,wish I still had it.
That's probably what i paid for mine back in the '60s. I'm glad I still have it -- one of my favorites.
torpeau is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 02:34 PM   #24
HisSoldier
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2007
Location: Oregoncoast
Posts: 1,793
Boats, it looks like there is a crack running through the pin just above the trigger guard?

I have a Savage 1905, it's been said that they open as fast as a blowback, something about spark photography proving that it opened a bit faster actually. That would be because of some other factor than the rotating lock no doubt as the rotating barrel should slow it down. It uses the momentum (Resistance to change of motion) of the bullet going from zero RPMs to 20,000 RPMs (Or whatever it is) to retard the barrel from turning to open the lock. The Germans did the spark photography, I assume it was during the trials against the P08 that Savage and several other pistols did, and that they wanted the board to know that the Savage didn't meet the criteria of locked breech. (That part is speculation on my part.)
As to a rotating barrel being more accurate than a vertical locking type, that would be true if the Browning gun wasn't locking up right due to poor fitting.

The Browning design holds the barrel very rigidly at the back and the front. In a 1911 the lower lug is pressing the barrel up against the locking lugs, the lower lugs have two points of contact side to side while the upper lugs probably have one or more (Depending on how it was fit up) and the front of the barrel is pressed against the top of the bushing. The action is entirely repeated every time so there is no movement at all and the barrel is in the same exact position for every shot.

With a rotating barrel there may be movement capability since the barrel has to be able to rotate to unlock. The designers may have implemented a solid lockup at the moment of the last few thousandths of an inch of lockup movement, I don't know. It would seem to me to be more difficult to get the front of the barrel to cam into rigidity against it's bushing or hole though.
__________________
CNC produced 416 stainless triggers to replace the plastic triggers on Colt Mustangs, Mustang Plus II's, MK IV Government .380's and Sig P238's and P938's. Plus Colt Mustang hardened 416 guide rods, and Llama .32 and .380 recoil spring buttons, checkered nicely and blued.
HisSoldier is offline  
Old July 30, 2009, 02:52 PM   #25
Boats
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 964
The frame is not cracked, that's some sort of shadow.
Boats is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.13616 seconds with 10 queries