Need help identifying replica 1851 navy maker.

JAKEZDOG · October 30, 2016, 05:09 PM

I have an Italian made 1851 navy colt revolver with a cartridge kit caliber 38 Smith & Wesson (not 38 Special) that doesn't have any maker marks on it. I've overlooked it and taken it apart so many times now, but I've yet to find any. It has all the Italian proof marks and has a serial number. I know from the marks it was made in 1977. The reason why I need to identify it is so that I can get proper matching parts for it. The only thing I was ever able to find it matching was an online auction piece marked as "Pietta 1851 Navy Cartridge Conversion .38 Smith & Wesson". This does look similar to what I have and the cylinder matches mine, but I'm not sure if mine is really a Pietta because when I look up parts they don't seem to match. Any help would be appreciated. I will leave a link to the auction piece for pictures because other than mine having a brass frame this one is similar enough and the cylinder is the important part because that is one of the parts I would like to replace with a matching one or a new one in 38 Long.

Pietta 1851 Navy Cartridge Conversion .38 Smith & Wesson
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11063556

AKexpat · October 30, 2016, 06:05 PM

OMG! That grip profile with the upturned butt is pretty much a replica of an original Griswold and Gunnison! Very rare! Seriously!

Yes, it is an Italian repro, and probably an early Pietta, just by looking at the barrel manufacturing markings as Uberti hid them under the barrel, and Pietta did not.

I hope you can figure out who the manufacturer is. It is definitely not a modern Pietta "tail" revolver. Maybe an older one. Look for a date code on the right side of the frame. [It will be in Roman Numerals (early) or in alpha caps (later on).]

You have said it was made in 1977. I missed that.

And you got that for $124?! The conversion cylinder is worth more than that.

Looking forward to your investigations.

Jim

Hawg · October 31, 2016, 12:49 AM

Quote:

That grip profile with the upturned butt is pretty much a replica of an original Griswold and Gunnison

Umm the auction pic is a Pietta 51 navy.

Jake, you do realize that if you shoot Smokeless out of a brass frame it won't last long, especially if you shoot it out of a .38 long. Why not just have the cylinder you have rechambered?

drobs · October 31, 2016, 12:57 PM

The conversion ring on the one on the auction:

looks very similar to this Howell conversion ring (see figure 6)
https://media.midwayusa.com/productd...structions.pdf

You could try a couple Howell cylinders to see if they fit.

http://www.howelloldwestconversions....CFB4DBA7E745D9

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...t-6-round-blue

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/71...t-6-round-blue

JAKEZDOG · November 3, 2016, 12:42 PM

To drobs,

I've been trying to use Howell cylinder kits for mine but they won't work. They are too big overall to fit in my pistol. The cylinder is too fat as well.

To Hawg,

I don't necessarily want to change the caliber of my pistol I just want to replace the cylinder, but I can't find anything matching my pistol for parts. The auction piece was the only thing I could find any information on. Most parts and kits I find for Pietta are all newer versions.

Jim Watson · November 3, 2016, 03:14 PM

The auction gun is equipped with a Legal Defender conversion system.
The Legal Defender was sold in the 1970s when GCA 1968 was fresh in everybody's mind and was offered as a way to circumvent mailorder restrictions and repressive local ordnances.
Caliber is .38 S&W so as to not risk overloading open top C&Bs without the trouble of finding .38 Long Colt in the pre-CAS days.
It is not a replica of any 19th century conversion.
They cost about $40.
They are long out of production, they were not made in any other caliber, it is doubtful anybody else's cylinder will fit.

Many years later at a gun show, I saw a gun like the one in the ad that had been defarbed and antiqued, offered as an original for $1400.

Hawg · November 3, 2016, 06:23 PM

I don't know that I've ever seen one but DGW back in the 70's advertised repros that were 7/8 scale. Mayhap you have one of those?

Gaucho Gringo · November 3, 2016, 09:55 PM

You do know that .38S&W and.38 long(colt) are two different cartridges shooting different diameter bullets with the .38S&W being the larger of the two cartridges. .38 long will chamber in a 38S&W although sloppy and the bullet is smaller than a .38S&W. Also shooting smokeless cartridges of any caliber in a brass framed open top revolver is not the thing to do as stated by the makers of cartridge conversions. However if you are determined to shoot it, just use the .38S&W cartridge it was made for, preferably loaded with black powder. Nothing to be gained by doing anything else unless you want throw money away.

October 30, 2016, 05:09 PM	#1
JAKEZDOG Junior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 2	Need help identifying replica 1851 navy maker. I have an Italian made 1851 navy colt revolver with a cartridge kit caliber 38 Smith & Wesson (not 38 Special) that doesn't have any maker marks on it. I've overlooked it and taken it apart so many times now, but I've yet to find any. It has all the Italian proof marks and has a serial number. I know from the marks it was made in 1977. The reason why I need to identify it is so that I can get proper matching parts for it. The only thing I was ever able to find it matching was an online auction piece marked as "Pietta 1851 Navy Cartridge Conversion .38 Smith & Wesson". This does look similar to what I have and the cylinder matches mine, but I'm not sure if mine is really a Pietta because when I look up parts they don't seem to match. Any help would be appreciated. I will leave a link to the auction piece for pictures because other than mine having a brass frame this one is similar enough and the cylinder is the important part because that is one of the parts I would like to replace with a matching one or a new one in 38 Long. Pietta 1851 Navy Cartridge Conversion .38 Smith & Wesson http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11063556

October 30, 2016, 06:05 PM	#2
AKexpat Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2014 Location: SW WA State Posts: 490	OMG! That grip profile with the upturned butt is pretty much a replica of an *original* Griswold and Gunnison! Very rare! Seriously! Yes, it is an Italian repro, and probably an early Pietta, just by looking at the barrel manufacturing markings as Uberti hid them under the barrel, and Pietta did not. I hope you can figure out who the manufacturer is. It is definitely not a modern Pietta "tail" revolver. Maybe an older one. Look for a date code on the right side of the frame. [It will be in Roman Numerals (early) or in alpha caps (later on).] You have said it was made in 1977. I missed that. And you got that for $124?! The conversion cylinder is worth more than that. Looking forward to your investigations. Jim __________________ To be governed – is to be watched, inspected, directed, indoctrinated, numbered, estimated, regulated, commanded, controlled, law-driven, preached at, spied upon, censured, checked, valued, enrolled – by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so. - Pierre-Joseph Proudhon Last edited by AKexpat; October 30, 2016 at 06:41 PM.

October 31, 2016, 12:57 PM	#4
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	The conversion ring on the one on the auction: looks very similar to this Howell conversion ring (see figure 6) https://media.midwayusa.com/productd...structions.pdf You could try a couple Howell cylinders to see if they fit. http://www.howelloldwestconversions....CFB4DBA7E745D9 https://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...t-6-round-blue https://www.midwayusa.com/product/71...t-6-round-blue __________________ NRA Life Member

November 3, 2016, 09:55 PM	#8
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	You do know that .38S&W and.38 long(colt) are two different cartridges shooting different diameter bullets with the .38S&W being the larger of the two cartridges. .38 long will chamber in a 38S&W although sloppy and the bullet is smaller than a .38S&W. Also shooting smokeless cartridges of any caliber in a brass framed open top revolver is not the thing to do as stated by the makers of cartridge conversions. However if you are determined to shoot it, just use the .38S&W cartridge it was made for, preferably loaded with black powder. Nothing to be gained by doing anything else unless you want throw money away. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

November 3, 2016, 12:42 PM	#5
JAKEZDOG Junior Member Join Date: October 28, 2016 Posts: 2	To drobs, I've been trying to use Howell cylinder kits for mine but they won't work. They are too big overall to fit in my pistol. The cylinder is too fat as well. To Hawg, I don't necessarily want to change the caliber of my pistol I just want to replace the cylinder, but I can't find anything matching my pistol for parts. The auction piece was the only thing I could find any information on. Most parts and kits I find for Pietta are all newer versions.

November 3, 2016, 03:14 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	The auction gun is equipped with a Legal Defender conversion system. The Legal Defender was sold in the 1970s when GCA 1968 was fresh in everybody's mind and was offered as a way to circumvent mailorder restrictions and repressive local ordnances. Caliber is .38 S&W so as to not risk overloading open top C&Bs without the trouble of finding .38 Long Colt in the pre-CAS days. It is not a replica of any 19th century conversion. They cost about $40. They are long out of production, they were not made in any other caliber, it is doubtful anybody else's cylinder will fit. Many years later at a gun show, I saw a gun like the one in the ad that had been defarbed and antiqued, offered as an original for $1400.

November 3, 2016, 06:23 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I don't know that I've ever seen one but DGW back in the 70's advertised repros that were 7/8 scale. Mayhap you have one of those?