You Never Know What You Are Going to Find at a Gun Show

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

A few months ago I attended a local gun show. Medium sized, lots of tables. I really wasn't looking for anything special except I needed targets and I knew the guy I usually buy them from would probably be at this show.

First stop I stopped at the table of a fellow S&W collector to see what he had for sale. He had a New Model #3 Target Model chambered for 32-44, the old target round. It did not function properly and I was not interested because that cartridge is no longer manufactured. Perhaps I could make up rounds from 32 S&W Long, but I really don't know. Anyway, I told him I really was not interested in it. He also had a Baby Russian in the box, but he wanted a lot of money for it, so I passed on that too.

When I got to the guy selling targets I realized like a dope I had forgotten my checkbook. No problem says I, I have been spending too much on guns recently anyway. So I bought the targets with cash and moved on. A couple of more items interested me, but not enough to make an offer, besides, I did not have my checkbook.

Then halfway through the show I spotted what I thought at first was a S&W Russian Model. I asked to see 'the Russian' but as I handled it I realized it was a New Model Number Three, and not a Russian. The dealer did not seem to know the difference, but I sure did. I inspected it very carefully. The finish had a good deal of wear, but the lock up was perfect, and the chambers and bores looked like it had just left the factory yesterday. I checked everything, checked everything for function and it was flawless. I asked him what he wanted for it, and he told me. Then I told him that like a dope I had forgotten my checkbook. He said he would be there all day.

So I raced through the rest of the show, making sure there was not anything else I was interested in. Then I jumped in my car and drove home 45 minutes to retrieve my checkbook. Another 45 minutes back, paying again to enter the show, I hoped it was still there.

It was. I was sure I had lost my bargaining position, since I was obviously panting to buy it. I asked again what he wanted, he gave me the same figure, and I asked if he would take $300 less. He said he would take $200 less and we sealed the deal.

Then I ran home with my new treasure. A S&W New Model Number Three, chambered for 44 Russian. A little bit of snooping found it shipped in 1896.









Since I fully intended to shoot it with Black Powder rounds, I stripped it down and did my normal preparation for a gun I intend to shoot with Black Powder rounds. Cleaned all the old oil and fouling out (there was very little fouling inside, I have since determined this gun has not been fired much). Then relubed everything with a light coating of Ballistol and buttoned it back up again.







I had a box of my Black Powder 44 Russian rounds on hand, so the next day I took it to the range to see how well it would do. Not too shabby. The one flier was probably my fault, not the gun's. I fired about 40 rounds through it to give it a good workout. The trigger is very heavy, but other than that it worked flawlessly. (Disclaimer: Even though the target says 25 yard slow fire, I was shooting a whole lot closer than that)






Took it home and cleaned it again that night.

I posted a few photos on the S&W Forum. I got some interesting tidbits. It seems that there was a large shipment of this model to Japan in 1896, and the speculation is that this one was part of that shipment. That may square with the odd marking next to the lanyard ring, which may or may not be a Japanese acceptance stamp.






A few days later I sent off a request for a factory letter to find out for sure if it was part of that large shipment to Japan. It should be interesting what the letter says.

The moral of the story is, you never know what you will find at a gun show, so don't forget your checkbook.

Or maybe it was fate that I didn't have my checkbook when I found this gem?????

[reddog81]

Nice score! I'm jealous.

It's always a nice find to get something that old in such good condition irrespective of the price.

[lamarw]

Same here, I to am jealous. I would enjoy hearing what is in your letter when you receive it.

Oh, the target looks pretty nice to but appears to be used.

[Carmady]

Thanks for sharing that story and the pics. I'm undecided on what I like more, the gun or the part about the checkbook.

[Mike Irwin]

Good God I don't like you!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Driftwood Johnson]

The week after I bought it, there was a CAS match. I decided it would be New Model Number Three day for me, since I already had a nickel plated 44 Russian NM#3 that left the factory in 1882. This one was refinished at the factory in 1965, so it looks brand new.






Both revolvers got a thorough workout that day, both finished the day nice and sooty.

[smee78]

Wow, what a find. Congrats on picking the needle out of the hay stack. The gun would of been sold if I tried to go back.

[Bob Wright]

It's hard to imagine finding a revolver that old in that good condition.

Most guns of that era, mercury has taken its toll on the finish. Congratulations on a good find.

Bob Wright

[Mike Irwin]

Mercury? From the primer, obviously, but what would it do to the finish?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[2damnold4this]

Great find!

[Bob Wright]

Mike Irwin asked:

Mercury? From the primer, obviously, but what would it do to the finish?

Old guns fired heavily with black or semi-smokeless powders are pitted or eroded around the face of the cylinder and barrel stub. Bores are badly pitted as well. Even without scarring, the finish is washed away.

Bob Wright

[tallball]

Congratulations on the great find!

[Mike Irwin]

OK, that likely wouldn't be the effects of mercury, then, if it's the iron that is pitted.

That would be the cumulative effects of corrosive priming and corrosive black powder residue.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I don't want you guys to get the wrong idea. I take my outdoor photos in diffused light, which tends to minimize defects. Here are a few more photos, taken in harsh indoor light which is not quite as forgiving. I would say the original blue is somewhere on the order of 60%. The front half of the barrel is mostly missing any blue, the steel underneath having been oxidized to a brownish color.

There are also spots on the frame that are missing the blue. However, the missing blue looks to me to be purely the result of wear, there is no pitting anywhere.










Typical blue worn off the backstrap by somebody's sweaty hand.






The chambers and bore however, are spotless. They look like the gun just came from the factory. Really mirror bright. There is a tiny bit of pitting in the bore near the muzzle, but other than that, it is spotless.






Don't get me wrong, I am extremely pleased with this revolver.

Anyway, I got the Factory Letter after only about two weeks. Record time. Yes, it was part of a large shipment to Japan, and yes, it shipped with the butt swivel in place. I asked about the mark near the butt swivel, and included a photo, but there was no mention of that.

[Bob Wright]

Mike Irwin:

OK, that likely wouldn't be the effects of mercury, then, if it's the iron that is pitted.

That would be the cumulative effects of corrosive priming and corrosive black powder residue.

Mike, Corrosive primers were mercuric. I can cite a specific example of a Tennessee Squirrel rifle. This rifle was purchased at an auction (for twenty-five cents). It was a cap-lock rifle of about .40 caliber, with an octagon barrel. Around the nipple, the flats and angles were so badly eroded as to be nearly round. This erosion was the effect of mercury on the steel.

Mercuric primers, and the resulting soot, removed much of the finish on old guns. That the bores were not so badly affected was attributed to the fact that the black powder fouling sort of protected the bores.

Gunsmiths used to clean badly leaded bores by pouring mercury down a plugged bore and allowing it to sit for awhile, as the mercury dissolved the lead. After this treatment, the bore had to be thoroughly cleaned to remove all traces of mercury to avoid pitting and erosion.

Bob Wright

[Striker]

Nice score and the provenance makes it that much better. Wonder how it made it back to the US...WWII bring back perhaps?

[Driftwood Johnson]

WWII bring back perhaps?

That would be my guess, but it is only a guess.

[James K]

Hi, Bob,

While some mercuric compounds do cause or increase corrosion, in general, primers using mercury fulminate (the common "mercuric" primers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries) rarely caused any corrosion or rust in firearms barrels and mercury fulminate (the explosive in "mercuric" primers) was never a significant factor in causing damage to firearms. In fact, the contrary was true; mercuric primers were seen as the solution to the problems of rusting in barrels. It took a while for the exact problem to be recognized - the rusting of steel and corrosion caused by the chlorate compounds used in the early primers. On giving up its oxygen in the burning/exploding process, the chlorates (potassium chlorate was the most common) becomes a chloride, which then actively seeks a metal molecule, which it obtains from adjacent metals, like the steel of a rifle barrel, thus corroding the barrel.

So mercuric primers were not the cause of corrosion; on the contrary, they were seen (for a while) as being the solution to the corrosion problem. But mercuric primers had another problem. When they fired, they left free mercury in the cartridge case and barrel. The mercury had little effect on the steel of the barrel, but it amalgamated with the copper of the brass cartridge case, weakening it. (A second problem, the effect of free mercury on health, was not immediately recognized, but is the main reason mercuric primers are not used today, even in rimfire cartridges where reloading would not be a factor.)

So primers using mercury fulminate are a no-no both for health reasons and because the products of firing damage the brass cartridge case.

The older compound, potassium chlorate, is not damaging to the brass or copper cartridge case, but in firing the chlorate gives up oxygen and becomes potassium chloride, similar to and even more corrosive than common table salt.* In the black powder days, the relatively large mass of powder fouling made the effect of the chlorate less noticeable and rusting of a rifle barrel was thought to be the product of the fouling itself, not of the residue of the priming compound. That is why the "mercuric" primer seemed a godsend to rifle shooters. Since powder fouling was removed by flushing the barrel with hot water, which also removed the chlorate, the problem seemed to be solved.. Until smokeless powder came along. For a long time, shooters were convinced that the new powder caused corrosion, which is why compounds (like Hoppe's) were sold as powder solvents to remove the "corrosion" caused by smokeless powder. It was not until the 1920's that it was recognized that the corrosion was caused by the priming compound.

Jim

*Technically, it is not the salt itself that causes most of the corrosion, but the fact that the salt absorbs and holds moisture, and that causes most of the damage. That is why folks in very dry climates can fire "corrosive" primers without seeing the rusting of firearms barrels that would occur in other climates.

JK

[Driftwood Johnson]

All I know is that I have a lot of old rifles and revolvers from the Black Powder era. Most of them have pitting in the bores. But all of them will put a good spin on a bullet and give reasonable accuracy, as long as the rifling is still strong.

I assume it is the combination of corrosive primers and Black Powder fouling that caused the pitting. We don't use corrosive primers any more, so the corrosion caused by Black Powder alone is no where near as bad with modern primers.

This particular revolver has mirror like chambers, and an almost mirror bore. So since it is from the tail end of the Black Powder era, somebody was doing a good job of cleaning it after every firing.

[Model12Win]

SUPERLATIVE revolving belt pistols. Congrats.

[Mike Irwin]

"Mike, Corrosive primers were mercuric."

Yes, I know they were. Mercury wasn't (generally) removed from commercial primers until the early part of the 1900s, although mercuric primers continued to be used in special circumstances for decades after.


"Around the nipple, the flats and angles were so badly eroded as to be nearly round."

No, I don't think it was the mercury, Bob. Mercury doesn't amalgamate with either iron or steel, meaning that it would have virtually no effect.

But what you're describing is a common, and well know, effect of the high flame temperature of early primers literally eroding away the steel, with the effect being magnified by the highly corrosive nature of the priming mixture itself.

The same effect was seen in early Lee rifles in British service with Metford rifling used with first generation cordite. Early cordite burned incredibly hot due to its high nitroglycerine content.

That problem was solved in stages -- adoption of the Enfield deep cut rifling (creating the Lee-Enfield series of rifles), reformulation of cordite to reduce the nitroglycerin content and, over time, better barrel steels.

Now, where I could see mercury from early primers causing a problem is with nickle plated guns. The mercury could get under the plating through flaws and attack the copper bonding layer that was commonly used in old plating techniques.

Given that mercury will amalgamate with copper, it could eventually cause the plating to lose adhesion.

[Mike Irwin]

Ah, I see that Jim and I gave much the same answer.

[ViperR]

There is a great youtube video by MidwayUSA on this #3 revolver. Also shows reloading for it.

[Driftwood Johnson]

There is a great youtube video by MidwayUSA on this #3 revolver. Also shows reloading for it.

I was not able to view the video, but the description is he is loading ammo for the 44 S&W American Model. That is not the same cartridge, nor the same revolver. Number Three was just the size of the frame, there were five distinctly different S&W revolvers built on the #3 size frame. The five were the American Model, the Russian Model, the Schofield, the New Model Number Three (that's what this thread is about), and the 44 Double Action.

The American model fired the 44 S&W cartridge which employed a heeled bullet. The bullet was the same diameter as the outside of the case, and the 'heel' of the bullet was a smaller diameter and inserted into the inside of the case. This cartridge cannot be loaded with conventional dies, special dies are needed to crimp the case onto the bullet. That is probably why Potterfield did a special video about loading it.

My New Model Number Three is chambered for 44 Russian. Basically a shorter version of the 44 Special. The bullet slips inside the case, just like any other modern cartridge, and I reload it with conventional reloading dies.

Here is a photo of my New Model #3 with some original 44 Russian cartridges.






The four cartridges in this photo, left to right, are 44 S&W American, 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum. If you look very closely at the 44 American cartridge, you will see the bullet is the same outside diameter as the cartridge case, just like modern 22 Long Rifle ammunition. The basic difference between 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Magnum, other than the power of course, is each one has a slightly longer case. They all share all the other major dimensions. I use a standard RCBS 44 Magnum/44 Special die set to load 44 Russian, I have ground down the seating/crimp die to allow for the shorter case of the 44 Russian round.

[amd6547]

I’m certain that Takata &Co is the same company making the recalled airbags today.