Reports of "Militia Takeover" in Oregon

[johnwilliamson062]

Not all of their complaints about the government's practices are without merit, as I see it. However, real valid issues are being driven under by their extremist stance. I fear they will do more harm, than good, in the end.

I'm still willing to bet this ends in body bags and I'd take long odds if it isn't resolved in the next few days. So, for them, they will be doing a lot of harm. On the other hand, they have brought considerable awareness to an issue no one cared about a few days ago. The US has a long history of small rebellions being put down with devestating effects for the extremists only to see the moderates quickly provided a lot of what they asked for in the first place.

To pretend this type of contentious situation is all due to the government is disingenuous as hell.

Oh I don't think anyone is saying this is entirely BLMs fault. One thing to keep in mind, and I know this from having family with livestock, cattle can't wait until a court case is over to drink. If BLM is paying a contractor to build a fence cutting you off from your water you don't have even the days required for a temporary injunction. If you don't immediately defend your water rights you are finished.

[thallub]

To pretend this type of contentious situation is all due to the government is disingenuous as hell.

Best post i've read today.

Did anyone here read the federal appeals court decision? There's a lot of good information in that document.

Did you know that the Hammonds signed onto a plea agreement?

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-circuit/1656649.html


1. Did you know that a close relative of the Hammonds, a 13 year old boy at the time, was nearly burned to death in the fire?

2. Did you know that the person in 2. above testified against the Hammonds in court?

3. Did you know one fire endangered the lives of hunters and BLM firefighters camped nearby?

http://federalcrimesblog.com/tag/dwight-hammond-jr/

[Colorado Redneck]

Thallub---I was a public servant for over 30 years. It was really interesting to have some joker think he knew how I should do my job, and light into me like I was dirt under his feet. Public servants side of the story is often untold, as it is really not media worthy to inform the public that John Landowner thought he was going to straighten out some public employee.

I hate government over reach, and also had to work with other government agencies that made my life miserable due to their idea of regulations.

This story is unusual, as some guys are making public press out of a scenario that was created by lack of respect for laws by private citizens. Worked good for Cliven Bundy--I haven't heard any updates on him. But the guy in AZ that I referenced in an earlier post sat behind bars for a while. What amazes me is the lineup of people that are ready to bandwagon jump about how evil the government is. Often, these same people are getting benefits of some kind from the Fed's. Social Security, Medicare, subsidies, low interest loans, free education, disability benefits, whatever.

In the end, this Oregon story will eventually peter out. Guys claim they don't want a gun fight.

[johnwilliamson062]

a teenage relative of theirs

A relative who many have indicated is mentally handicapped and something like 11 at the time of the fire approximately 11 years before testiying on the matter.

Although a burn ban was in effect, Steven did not seek a waiver. - See more at: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-9th-ci....vAmCda7K.dpuf

Paperwork before a backburn to stop the spread of an active wildfire...

I think getting caught up on the Hammond case is foolhardy though. I think they are well beyond the resolution of issues in one case having any effect.

Guys claim they don't want a gun fight.

The leader makes that claim. The Davidians in Waco seemed much less interested in a gunfight and they still got one.

[thallub]

Often, these same people are getting benefits of some kind from the Fed's. Social Security, Medicare, subsidies, low interest loans, free education, disability benefits, whatever.

Many, if not most "militia" members fall into these categories.

A big time rancher at our breakfast klache really bugged me. He constantly whined about Obama, the US government, it's employees and folks on welfare; especially folks on welfare.

One morning i told him to the cent how much farm welfare money he received in 2012. Thought the guy would have a seizure. He never came to breakfast again.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by Colorado Redneck

What amazes me is the lineup of people that are ready to bandwagon jump about how evil the government is. Often, these same people are getting benefits of some kind from the Fed's. Social Security, Medicare, subsidies, low interest loans, free education, disability benefits, whatever.

In a place in which the government is by far the largest employer and government consumes a quarter of the GDP, it isn't amazing that people who see the government as too large or powerful will be accepting a benefit of some kind from the same government.

[Double Naught Spy]

Paperwork before a backburn to stop the spread of an active wildfire...

Well, they were convicted of setting 2 fires and the minimum sentence is still 5 years, be it for one fire or two.

[kilimanjaro]

I spent 40 years with USFS in the west. If the Hammond's are truthful, some employees need transferred. If F&WS is correct, ranchers need to come to jesus about permit terms.

You can work with the feds or you can fight them. One way works, the other is futile.

Whatever the issues, it's illegal to try and force a landowner into a sale. You administer the permits fairly, for both the permittee and the public interest, with no actions that are arbitrary or designed to force a sale, no matter what the Land Acquisition Map back in the office says is the desired ownership pattern.

You look at the landscape long-term. In 50 or 100 years, the property will come in from a willing seller. Until then, an acceptable level of resource use and exploitation has to be found and allowed.

[zukiphile]

Originally Posted by k

You can work with the feds or you can fight them. One way works, the other is futile.

There is a lot of practical wisdom in that. Tilting at a big federal windmill will carry a cost.

NPR this morning noted that Cliven Bundy's family view last year's episode as a limited victory in that they retained their cattle and the BLM withdrew. I would view that as a very limited victory without the kind of endurance a real legal precedent would have.

Originally Posted by k

Whatever the issues, it's illegal to try and force a landowner into a sale.

It is also illegal for the EPA to use compliance orders and denial of basic due process to harass, bully and otherwise mistreat landowners over whom they have no legal jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act, but the Agency doesn't appear generally deterred by adverse court rulings.

One's quandary as the recipient of a bad compliance order is to stand up and do the right thing, i.e. litigate it, or do the financially prudent thing, i.e. acknowledge as legitimate a dubious assertion of authority and try to minimise one's losses.

My sense isn't that the people in these episodes are blameless, but that a high profile episode serves as a lightning rod for a lot of people who wrestle with copious federal involvement in their lives and need to do the financially prudent thing rather than the right thing.

[kilimanjaro]

The trouble with these things are as you say, when they reach a stage that precipitates an event like this, is that both sides are to blame. Hopefully the folks inside the Refuge will realize they have made their statement and it's time to return to square one. So far, the Feds are not amping up an armed response, hopefully they realize they can return to square one, too. As soon as people realize they can use this event to further their own ends, it can metastasize into a real problem. This has already started on a local level when the peaceful protest in Burns splintered off into the occupation at the Refuge when outsiders hijacked the issue for their own personal purposes. Now the same process is beginning on a national level.

[Stevie-Ray]

I'm on the fence on this one. On one hand, you have folks who clearly broke the law because they felt they were entitled to the use of land they don't own. But, they did the time that they were sentenced to; released and then put back in prison? That bothers me. If the judge refuses to follow sentencing guidelines, sanction the judge, fire the judge, vote the judge out - but, don't go rounding up these folks and throw them back in prison!

I can see why people in that neck of the woods are up in arms about the overreach of the federal government. While this issue couldn't be further removed from me personally, both geographically and idealistically, I have to agree, there's something more going on here and I'm not sure the government side doesn't stink to hell!

From everything I've seen, read, and heard, this is my opinion, 100%

[johnwilliamson062]

White House calls Oregon standoff a 'local law enforcement matter''

Wow. Federal facility and federal land. Talk about passing the buck. Very presidential. I could understand a political statement such as 'The President has the utmost confidence in federal authorities involved in the situation who have kept him apprised of events and there is currently no need for the President to become personally involved or comment,' but 'local issue' really surprised me.


On a sidenote: One place I wouldn't want to be in a firefight? That firetower. Idiots.

I have an old Walls "blizzard" cold weather suit. I considered sending it. After liberally applying itching powder.

And in case you were wondering, BLM does seem to have a SWAT type paramilitary unit.

[zukiphile]

A local matter? Isn't that Ammon Bundy's position?

[Panfisher]

I think every group of good folks has a retard fringe. Having worked many years for the government in land management, grazing leases have rules attached, don't follow them and they can be revoked. If the landowner/leasee doesn't play by the rules they pay the price.

As for either working with or fighting against the Gov't that is so true, if you work with them they will help you screw the Gov't legally. As for the Hammonds they broke the rules and got caught, I do not like the fact that they were sentenced, served the time and then were re-sentenced, irregardless of the fact that it was legal. I honestly think the judge should have said, "well we screwed up, but you fellers owned up and served your time, case dismissed".

The hammonds have said repeatedly that the Bundy Bunch does NOT speak for them nor do they want anything to do with them, neither does the locals, citizens or Sheriff's Dept. from what I read. The Bundy's threw a rebellion and no one came. I do give the Gov't a little credit in not quickly running into battle with them which is what the Bundy's thought would happen. The Bundy Bunch were nothing but thieves to begin with stealing from the citizens of the US, let them stew in their own stink for a while.

[Skans]

Just one more thought on this matter. I read about this in the WSJ today. My first impression was that this is a non-event; fairly uninteresting. Now, if they had the crowds that the occupy wall street folks had, and with guns (WSJ article didn't show any guns), it might get my attention. As it is, this is a small, local squabble that holds little interest for most.

[SSA]

From what I've read, there are about 15 people at the refuge. I have seen the names of 5 of them. None of the 5 is from Oregon. One of them seems to be a professional Muslim-hater.

[Tom Servo]

The problem is, there are no good guys in this.

The BLM's abuses are well known. johnwilliamson062 and others have pointed to some very good resources on the background of this situation. To those who haven't lived in the affected states, it's hard to understand the pattern of abuses and the frustration citizens have felt.

On the other hand, I can't see the Bundy's actions ending without bloodshed. That would be a shame, because we have a chance to address the underlying matters, but a shootout will close the door on that altogether.

[kilimanjaro]

When the economy of an entire town or rural area can be choked off and destroyed due to the actions of one federal agency at the behest of special interests, you know the agency has too much control over the region. It's kind of like living in a town run by a steel plant or a Microsoft office. Shut things down and hundreds or thousands of livelihoods go away. There's no simple answers.

The guys in the Refuge are demanding land transfers, that is not going to happen. I don't see how this is going to end unless these folks get a dose of reality and consider their actions as a protest and not a set of demands. Protests are fine, demands are not going to be met. I know a lot of the rural west is considered nothing more than a theme park for urban yuppies, but this is not the way to address that.

There is no way the public is going to support transferring even one acre of a wildlife refuge into private hands, or even into State ownership as a refuge. Won't happen.

[WyMark]

Originally Posted by kilamanjaro

I don't see how this is going to end unless these folks get a dose of reality and consider their actions as a protest and not a set of demands.

The best thing for them at this point would be to fold up and sneak away into the night. They're being mocked mercilessly on social media:

YallQaeda
VanillaISIS
BubbaHaram
YokelHaram
Yeehawdists
TaliBundy

At this point no harm no foul, if they agree to leave peacefully the local and federal authorities may agree to pretend it never happened. Doubtful, but maybe worth asking for.

[Clock]

is that Janet Reno is not Attorney General. If Obama does the smart thing & continue to ignore them, the media will get bored & they will eventually just all go home.
What the country doesn't need at this point is another Waco or Ruby Ridge.

[johnwilliamson062]

At this point no harm no foul

I bet they are quite embarrassed by the social media insults and the fact that no one showed up. I doubt they will go home, but rather double down to show all those yuppies on social media who is boss. I'm guessing a couple of these guys arn't backing down until they get the fight they are pursuing. It wouldn't surprise me if a few others try to slink away in the night. My bet is plenty of drones and guy in ghiilie suits to pick them up when they do.

I've heard 15-25 PEOPLE. 5 MEN have been identified. My guess is the others are family.

[44 AMP]

You know, we might look on this as a good thing, timing wise. The occupiers (to separate them from the other folks protesting the Hammond sentencing) chose to use the Hammond issue as their call to arms / trigger incident, and the timing for them really sucks.

Its a difficult thing to get the bodies on the ground you need for a really headline grabbing bloodbath (should the govt be so stupid as to comply - and history says they just might be..) in the middle of nowhere Oregon, in the middle of a barking cold WINTER!!!!

Had the timing been right so they could have done this in warm weather, every wackjob on both sides in a 5 state radius could have been there in a matter of hours, camping out and "protesting". Better weather would also mean more news people too.

As it is right now, I think any support these people get from like minded folk will all be done on the Internet, rather than in (cold) person.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

When I read that the one protester said "We're on a mission from God"; was I the only one who mentally heard that in the voice of Elwood Blues?

[BarryLee]

When I read that the one protester said "We're on a mission from God"; was I the only one who mentally heard that in the voice of Elwood Blues?

Elwood: It's a hundred and six miles to Bundyville, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses.

Jake: Hit it.

Obviously we’re making jest of what is really a very dangerous and embarrassing situation. I suspect Ms. Clinton couldn’t have asked for a better photo op to push her agenda than if she’d planned it herself. In a year where issues of gun control, domestic/international terrorism, environmental issues, etc will most likely play a big part in the election these Bozos are doing freedom loving Americans no favors.

I realize this is probably a pretty complicated issue, but for a Southern Boy who has little knowledge of these laws is the entire process outdated? In other words are we trying to govern these 21st century issues using 19th century law?

[Wyosmith]

Use this link to see a video that may help to understand things concerning the things going on in Oregon.

https://www.facebook.com/steve.worth...13431/?theater