Distance shooting is a necessary task to sharpen.

[zincwarrior]

Also he might not have been aiming for a head shot.

[Sharkbite]

I think that with his background/Training coupled with the fact he fired a single round, its pretty clear he was taking a deliberate head shot.

One he pulled off PERFECTLY

[zincwarrior]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

I think that with his background/Training coupled with the fact he fired a single round, its pretty clear he was taking a deliberate head shot.

One he pulled off PERFECTLY

Indeed that may be the case.

[AK103K]

I know this is a gun forum and all, and the normal response to everything is "use a gun", but the two boys who were shot, seem to have been basically at contact distance to the guy with the gun, and yet no one thought to pounce on him and try and control the weapon.

They did seem to think that the gun was the proper response too, even though, at those distances, it probably shouldnt have been the first thought.

All the training comments seem to be gun oriented and nothing geared towards other viable things.

Perhaps we need to be a little broader in our training too, and more open and experienced in other things besides "the gun"?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Since September 1, I’ve really been learning to love saps. It is a simple tool that can be used effectively from non-lethal to lethal at the distances where most conflicts happen. Honestly, for me I like it better than the gun for about everything but these black swan type scenarios.

One of the things I like is you can be more proactive with use of force because you don’t have to immediately escalate to lethal force. But if lethal force is necessary , it can go there too. Of course, the limitation is it is a contact weapon with minimal reach.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts

Since September 1, I’ve really been learning to love saps. It is a simple tool that can be used effectively from non-lethal to lethal at the distances where most conflicts happen. Honestly, for me I like it better than the gun for about everything but these black swan type scenarios.

One of the things I like is you can be more proactive with use of force because you don’t have to immediately escalate to lethal force. But if lethal force is necessary , it can go there too. Of course, the limitation is it is a contact weapon with minimal reach.

Would you mind elaborating on what saps is? Is that an analogy, a martial art, a weapon, what? My guess is a weapon (and I see Google results on that) but just about anything these days is called a "tool" so could be something else. I find people tend to use terms/acronyms without explaining them, myself included. The assumption is of course everyone knows what that is.

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[AK103K]

Saps are also referred to a "blackjacks", "slappers", and a few other things.

Smaller impact weapons, usually made of leather with a lead insert. Some are flat, others round and often with a spring in them, and usually applied to joints, pressure points, etc.

[TunnelRat]

Thank you.

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[JohnKSa]

Check your local laws. Saps (and their kin) are often restricted.

[TunnelRat]

Not to detract from either hand to hand or contact weapon discussion as I think those are very valid points, but I did have a question on the firearm side.

Has he stated in any interviews why he went straight for a headshot? If you can do it why not obviously, but I was wondering if there was other logic. Concern about the guy wearing armor, shooting higher to reduce the chances of hitting a parishioner, etc.

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[FireForged]

As for 25 yard shooting. I do practice some at 25 yards but my carry is a 642 revolver, I'm never gonna do a 25 yard head shot with it. I will try it next time I go to the range. Can do 25 on IDPA head with a 586 and a 625 but these aren't my carry guns. A 15 yard head shot would be iffy for me with the 642. As a security guard this man had the right gun and ability to do the job. It is highly unlikely that one would have to do a head shot at 25 yards but anything can happen.

unless you are dealing with a hostage situation or some other critical circumstance where you cannot afford to allow the badguy to move a muscle.. attempting such a shot where there is so very little margin for error is probably not the most prudent idea. Center mass is the standard for many good reasons.

[AK103K]

I think it makes perfect sense for the headshot, as its the most likely way to shut things down quickly. From 15-10 yards and in, its really not all that difficult a shot, even while moving, if you practice it regularly.

Pistol rounds are not really known as manstoppers, and you need to hit, for lack of a better term, a switch, that will shut things down instantly, and theres really only one spot that will do that.

[Sharkbite]

He stated there were people still moving around low. He was worried about hitting a bystander.

[TunnelRat]

Yeah I know about switches and timers. It's still mildly unusual for a headshot to be the one and only shot fired in a defensive shooting on behalf of one party. The upper thoracic cavity is a larger target and many if not most instructors teach starting there and then moving to the head if the former was ineffective. I'm not criticizing the choice, just trying to understand if there was additional reasoning.

Thank you to Sharkbite.

Is there one source for the interviews people have found better than others?

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[Bartholomew Roberts]

Check your local laws. Saps (and their kin) are often restricted.

Texas, just recently (as of 9/01/2019) changed the law to allow peaceable citizens to carry saps, clubs, and similar weapons. In most states, these are still highly illegal - even moreso than firearms, so John’s advice is well taken.

However, in Texas, it is super handy. You have your low-level zones (big muscle groups in the arm or leg, the sternum) where you are relying on mostly pain compliance but you aren’t going to seriously injure someone either. From there you can escalate to Phillipino style “defanging the snake” techniques, where you strike hands, knees, or elbows so that the person is physically unable to continue the fight or you get a mobility kill. You can then further escalate by smashing the clavicle. And finally, you can do head or neck strikes - which are unquestionably lethal force and should only be employed when lethal force is legally justified; but they are still highly effective while being minimally lethal.

You can also carry them in several places where firearms are forbidden to CHLs (51% signs or hospitals being a good example)

And as a bonus with saps, you can use the flat side to spread the impact over a wider area or use the edge to concentrate the force. The downside is pulling a sap put pretty much guarantees an aggravated assault charge at a minimum if you are in the wrong. So you are solidly in the “go to jail” possibility if you need to use one.

However at contact distances, they can be fast and work really well with a base level of physical fitness. It is a contact weapon, so you’ll have to be able to tussle with people to use it.

And from the appearance side of the legal arena, people in Texas are kind of screwy. You poke a guy in the neck with a Kabar and you’ve got a serious problem with the jury and the fight will probably continue another 15-30 seconds to boot. Smack a guy in the base of the skull or behind the ear with 10oz of lead on a steel flat spring and he’ll drop like a marionette with its strings cut and Texas citizens seem to think that’s just boys being boys even though it is incredibly dangerous.

Another issue is you are using a weapon that even most police officers are forbidden from using these days. So the first guy at the scene who is going to frame how your use of force is seen by the state is going to see you using a weapon he isn’t legally allowed to use. And the reason he isn’t allowed to use them is because they draw civil lawsuits like a magnet.

[Mike38]

I guess one could say that us Bullseye Pistol competitors that shoot at 50 yards, one handed, are on to something? For the fun of it, I will occasionally set out a full sized silhouette target at 50 yards and poke at it with my pocket carry pistol. With out any stress of an active shooter situation, I do all right. But under stress, with adrenaline pumping 100 miles an hour, I'm not sure I'd do well at all.

[Sharkbite]

The upper thoracic cavity is a larger target and many if not most instructors teach starting there and then moving to the head if the former was ineffective.

I have taught single headshots from the holster since at least 1999.

A couple caveats or reasons to go that route.
1. Its the only shot available. This appears to line up with this situation. The hero perceived danger at a lower level and improved his foreground and background by aiming at a higher target.
2. Cant risk a failure to stop.
3. The headshot is so easy (close) that it can be accomplished in about the same time frame as 2-3 thoracic cavity hits.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think headshots vs. torso depends on how fast you need to end the fight. The head is a smaller target and well armored. With pistol rounds, you can get crazy results. I reviewed a shooting where the shootee threw his hand up and that fragmented the .357 Silvertip so that the fragment that penetrated his nostril was stopped by his skull (and that’s why the FBI penetration standards are important).

An upper thoracic shot starts the timer on when a fight will end; but unless you clip the spine, it doesn’t end a fight.

In this situation, cluttered background, stationary target, possible body armor, etc. I think the head shot was the absolute way to go if it was even mildly viable. A torso shot that didn’t hit the nervous system would have left that attacker physically able to shoot for another 10-15 seconds.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

I have taught single headshots from the holster since at least 1999.

A couple caveats or reasons to go that route.
1. Its the only shot available. This appears to line up with this situation. The hero perceived danger at a lower level and improved his foreground and background by aiming at a higher target.
2. Cant risk a failure to stop.
3. The headshot is so easy (close) that it can be accomplished in about the same time frame as 2-3 thoracic cavity hits.

Good points.

I've practiced single headshots from the holster and it's something I've seen in courses. Obviously there are reasons to go for a headshot, some of which I outlined when I originally asked about the interview. I think it's a part of this shooting worth highlighting.

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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Has he stated in any interviews why he went straight for a headshot?

Yes. Sharkbite beat me to it, but I can confirm. He said people between him and the shooter didn't duck down far enough so the only clear shot he had was the head shot. In the interview I watched, he said he teaches that a center of torso shot is a much larger (and better) target than a head shot, [but when life deals you lemons ... make lemonade*].


* He didn't say that -- that's my take on his reason for taking the head shot. It's the only shot he had.

[darkgael]

[QUOTE ] if you can shoot a good group at 25 yards, you should be able to shoot a good group at 25 feet.[/QUOTE]
This ^^^^^!
Pete

[Brit]

Excellent pistol, calibre. Most likely went to single action, while he could not take the shot immediately, people in front of him. And well within headshot distance? Obviously. I taught a single headshot in my qualification test. Last round of twenty, a headshot. But at 6 ft.

If this shotgun carrying person had stood up next to me, I would have controlled the muzzle, two hands, used a Liverpool Kiss (Head butt) to crush nose. Ripped gun from his hands, he would not be able to breathe well now.
Put the boots to his head.

Five years spent as a bouncer in Liverpool UK nightclubs. Many close-quarter fights. I used fists, head butts, kicks. Always (Hopefully) two of us on the door.
Cavern Club (of Beatles fame) 1960 till 1964 on Matthew Street, the Blue Angel on Seal Street all of 1965. Then immigrated to Sydney Australia. Stayed for 3 years, then off to Canada. Thirty years later, here in the US of A!
Still have an unbroken nose. Did not drink when I worked, always started the fight! You do not win the ones you do not. Remember it was the early sixties, not the 1990s. Could not act that way now. A kinder gentler nightlife.

Carried on the same way, working in my Dads Pub, The Sun Inn, on Liverpool Rd. Prescot, Lancashire. If you visit, of the two Glass windowed doors, that are marked Sun on the left, Inn on the right! The right one is original, over 100 years old, the left one is a replacement I threw someone threw it. Lighter colour. As you can see, freezing made immobile by the violence, not I.

The Ex FBI Agent, great reaction, excellent result. God Bless. I bet he has night sights on that pistol. We all do. Mine $100.00 TruGlo. Glock 19 4.5 lbs trigger. Extended slide lock/release. Kydex holster at 4 o'clock. OTB.

Just have my Wife of 29 years to look after now. Which I do with a smile and a pleasant demeanour. A white-headed Granddad.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Yes. Sharkbite beat me to it, but I can confirm. He said people between him and the shooter didn't duck down far enough so the only clear shot he had was the head shot. In the interview I watched, he said he teaches that a center of torso shot is a much larger (and better) target than a head shot, [but when life deals you lemons ... make lemonade*].


* He didn't say that -- that's my take on his reason for taking the head shot. It's the only shot he had.

Good thing those seated people between him and the bad guy didn't start standing up...

[FireForged]

I am not going to throw away conventional wisdom simply because some people want this to about precision shooting, its not...its rarely about that. I don't know if he was going for a head shot or not but lets just say for the purpose of this hypothetical, he was. If he had missed the single shot that took him a few seconds to set up, how many more shotgun blasts would the badguy have likely gotten off before the next "precision shot". Putting myself in that position, its not what I would have done. Sure, people are at risk and they certainly would have been at risk if you do not stop the threat. I am impressed with his shooting and I respect that he was there and responded. That said, I would not have opted for a single precision shot simply because ( to me) it was more risky in the long run. It worked out for him and I am glad.

To those who suggest that such a shot is not very difficult on a moving target in such a volatile environment, I suspect you have no idea what you are talking about. Fighting is not in the same universe as anything you are doing while participating in a gun-game.

[FireForged]

I think headshots vs. torso depends on how fast you need to end the fight

it also includes a little forethought. You have to weigh the consequences relating to failure (if you miss).