Pistol shooting stance(s)

[GMS3071]

Afternoon all,

This may be a little long but please hang in there!

I recently completed by Initial Firearms Course as part of my job and every 4-6 months we have to requalify on all the weapon systems we use. When I was on the course I did fine with everything on the pistol practice qualifications but when I was "under the pressure" of the real qualification I dipped shots on my twenty metre discipline. Needless to say when I retook the qualification I passed it and moved on.

We never really got much practice at twenty metres after that and when it came around to it (earlier than it should have been) we were pulled forward to requalify again and I dipped at twenty metres badly. So much so I'm back on "remedial" with the pistol but the development practice we've had so far hasn't really helped me.

As part of the qualification up until the final 7 rounds of a 40 round shoot I had dropped only a single shot. My fall of shot was pretty central (getting more spread as we move back through 5, 7, 10 and 15 metres). What happens at twenty metres however is my entire grouping drops to the low left corner and out of the score zone (hence dipping on the discipline). The whole fall of shot is different than when I stand at 15 metres or below.

We are trained (rigidly) to adopt only the Fairbairn Isosceles as a stance and since having to adopt it I've never felt totally comfortable with my stance, I think for me when I stand at twenty and the instructors highlight just how much you need to focus on all the elements of pistol shooting I simply can't get myself steady and comfortable in the timed exposures and so I rush my shots. Stupidly I group low and left rather than some others on the point who pepper the target with no grouping, my fall of shot may be in the wrong place but I do have a recognisable grouping acknowledged by the instructors.

I have since retaken the qualification and done EXACTLY the same thing and so I've tried to address this myself as all the tutelage I'e had from the instructors is "you know what feels right" and "we can't see anything glaringly obvious." Hardly the most helpful so I have since purchased myself a replica airsoft of the pistol we use (being in England means no pistols and they won't let me on the range to simply practice at twenty metres).

I know dry firing the airsoft and firing it isn't the same as live firing the issue pistol but I have very little alternative options. I've done lots of research on different stances and noticed that when I bring my weapon up in a Fairbairn at distance my sights are automatically aligned to the left (which tells me I am rushing my shots on the qualification by snatching at my initial sight picture). I have tried adjusting my grip but every time I do the initial draw and shoot for the first round my grip reverts to muscle memory and when I bring it up it's aligned left. Of note I am left eye dominant but right handed.

I have changed my stance to the Modern Isosceles/Combat/Tactical type stance with the weak foot forward, straight strong arm and keeping my chest still pretty straight on to the target as opposed to blading like the Weaver. That feels far more natural for me especially when stood at distance and when I initially "snap" the pistol up it is far more centrally aligned and doesn't feel like I spend precious time re-aligning my weapon on the timed exposures.

I've literally spent every day for the past week dry firing, adjusting stance and focussing on my breathing and sigh picture.

I'm not sure how the instructors are going to welcome a Modern Isosceles on the point and want to know if people think being forced to adopt the Fairbairn which feels awkward is likely to be a contributing factor to a low-left fall of shot at distance. I'm hoping that they're going to accept the fact I've developed myself and acknowledged some of my own weaknesses. I think that'll depend on the instructor for the day I suppose.

The twenty metre consists of 7 rounds, the first being drawn from the holster and a single shot followed by three paired shots. Each being on a five second exposure of the target. Give me that to do closer and I'm fine, just at twenty I think Fairbairn takes up too much of my concentration when I'm trying to make sure my body and arms are right when I should be focussing on breathing and sight picture. Is it a wrong thing for me to think that my forced stance is affecting me at twenty metres?

It's battered my confidence and up until I had the means to dry run at home the only weapons handling I would get would be on the range days which are once every six-eight weeks if not longer. I think this is helping me with my confidence but time will tell when I get a box of fifty on Thursday of this week fr some generic twenty metre practice (10 rounds at 10 metres in a respirator and the rest at 20 metres mixed with barricade shooting and free standing 10 kneel barricade/10 stand barricade/2x10 free-standing unsupported then it'll be back "to the office" to wait for another date to either have some remedial work or do my last chance at the qualification shoot.

The stupid thing is I have done this before, shown I can shoot at twenty but mind over matter can only get me so far.

Does anyone have any advice as more experienced shooters than I that can pick me up off the deck and help me brush my ego down a little and show this bloody qualifier that I can do it and will continue to do it!?!

Sorry for the rant/babbling.

[Frank Ettin]

GMS3071, welcome.

Originally Posted by GMS3071

...Stupidly I group low and left rather than some others on the point who pepper the target with no grouping, my fall of shot may be in the wrong place but I do have a recognisable grouping acknowledged by the instructors....

Low left for a right hander is pretty much always an indication of jerking the trigger.

1. Stance really shouldn't be too much of an issue. With good trigger control one can shoot accurately with pretty much any stance.
   
   
2. The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."
   
   
3. By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.
   
   
4. Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target.
   
   
5. Practice deliberately, making every shot count, to program good habits and muscle memory. Dry practice is very helpful. You just want to triple check that the gun is not loaded, and there should be no ammunition anywhere around. When engaging in dry practice, religiously follow Rule 2 - Never Let Your Muzzle Cover Anything You Are Not Willing To Destroy." As you dry fire, you want to reach the point where you can't see any movement of the sight as the sear releases and the hammer/striker falls.
   
   
6. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.
   
   
   1. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
      
      
   2. Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.
   
   
7. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.
   
   
   1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:
      
      
      1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;
         
         
      2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;
         
         
      3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and
         
         
      4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.
      
      
   2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.
      
      
   3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.
      
      
   4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.
      
      
   5. If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.
   
   
8. Now some thoughts on sight alignment and natural point of aim.
   
   
   1. You will want to train so that when you bring your pistol up your sights are properly aligned. We generally call that "finding your natural point of aim."
      
      
   2. A useful exercise is to bring the pistol up align the sights. The close your eyes and lower the pistol slightly. Now with the eyes still closed, raise the pistol to eye level. If the sights aren't aligned, adjust your body slightly and repeat the process. This video might help. (And of course you must religiously observe safe handling protocols when performing this or any other training exercise.)
      
      
   3. With good, diligent practice you will be able to program your body to align the sights automatically when the pistol is presented. So now, when I bring my gun up to my eyes I find the sights well aligned. This helps when there's a need to shoot quickly and is the basis for what is known as the "flash sight picture." And here's how Greg Morrison described the flash sight picture (Morrison, Gregory, The Modern Technique of the Pistol, Gunsite Press, 1991, pp 87 - 88, emphasis added):

      ...The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight-picture sufficient to confirm alignment....The target shooter’s gaze at the front sight has proven inappropriate for the bulk of pistol fighting. However, the practical shooter must start at this level and work up to the flash, which becomes reflexive as motor skills are refined. With practice, a consistent firing platform and firing stroke align the sights effortlessly. This index to the target eventually becomes an instantaneous confirmation of the sight-picture.
      
      ...Using the flash sight-picture programs the reflex of aligning the weapon’s sights with the target instantly....There is good reason for sights: one needs them to align the barrel with the target reliably....

   
   
9. Front sight, press, surprise.

[serf 'rett]

^What Frank said.

I had the same problem with good groups but hitting low left when engaged in rapid fire. I was jerking the trigger. Slowed down and concentrated on the fundamentals until I was back on target , then started working to increase speed.

Welcome to The Firing Line

[g.willikers]

In addition to the above advice, check your grip, itself.
You may be over gripping the gun with the strong hand and not gripping hard enough with the support hand.
If you are, the trigger finger can be bound up and instead of being able to pull the trigger straight back, you might be forcing the gun to the left.
There's a conversation going on right now, right here with a link to this excellent video on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJrA7wMXuuQ
The stance is not nearly as important as the correct grip.
Using cover and concealment can prevent even having one.

[Buzzcook]

Frank's right, trigger control is first before anything else and it seems as if you're jerking the trigger.

Try putting a dime on the barrel of your practice gun. Dry fire, trying to not let the dime move.

[Derbel McDillet]

We are trained (rigidly) to adopt only the Fairbairn Isosceles as a stance and since having to adopt it I've never felt totally comfortable with my stance...

...I have since retaken the qualification and done EXACTLY the same thing and so I've tried to address this myself as all the tutelage I'e had from the instructors is "you know what feels right" and "we can't see anything glaringly obvious."...

...I'm not sure how the instructors are going to welcome a Modern Isosceles on the point and want to know if people think being forced to adopt the Fairbairn which feels awkward is likely to be a contributing factor to a low-left fall of shot at distance. I'm hoping that they're going to accept the fact I've developed myself and acknowledged some of my own weaknesses. I think that'll depend on the instructor for the day I suppose....

IMO, being compelled to use one stance points to lazy instructors - they don't have to learn, teach and coach you for any other technique. It shouldn't matter what stance you choose as long as you're able to perform on demand under stress (i.e., get good hits on the target). Your performance is more important than rigid dogma from lazy instructors. (The Fairbairn isosceles stance is unstable from front to back, whereas modern isosceles is a more natural stable athletic stance.)

As Frank Ettin observed, shots landing around 7:30 on the target is an indicator that you're jerking the trigger. It may not be noticeable to you at closer distances but I suspect that if you examine your targets closely you'll also see your bullets landing low and left in relation to your aim point.

I'm not a proponent of "natural point of aim" for anything other than square range bullseye target shooting, which is what it seems you're being trained for instead of combative shooting.

[OnTheFly]

A lot of GREAT information from Frank. One thing I will add is that, as others have said, going low on the target is due to poor trigger control. Pulling the trigger rapidly so that the muzzle is being driven down during the entire trigger movement. The other thing that often drives the muzzle down is the desire in us (less pronounced with women), to man handle and control the recoil. Subconsciously we drive the muzzle down. If you ever get a chance, have a fellow shooter load your magazine with 2-3 snap caps mixed in with the live rounds. If you are looking at the sights then you will see what you are doing to the muzzle when you try to fire the snap cap. Also, as others have said, you are likely getting the same results at closer ranges, but it is not as pronounced.

For myself, I have found that going left on the target is a result of too weak of a grip with the support/weak (left hand for a right handed shooter). The ideal trigger pull is straight back; however, the finger is jointed and it is nearly impossible to move the finger straight back, especially with a rapid trigger pull. IF you are using the correct (thumbs forward grip), you can use a firm grip with the support hand to counteract the trigger finger left push and keep the sights aligned.

Fly

[DoubleDeuce 1]

I would add a little to think about.

1. 90% of all aiming errors are a result of misalignment of the rear sight, not the
front sight.

2. 80% of all poorly placed shots are caused by anticipation and improper trigger
control.

3. Wherever the round impacts on the target is the exact place where the sights
were aligned at the moment the projectile left the barrel.

4. Too much finger on the trigger will not cause shots to impact right or left
unless this error is combined with improper trigger control.

Anticipation- Aside from improper grip, shots going low can be caused by anticipation- pushing the muzzle down as the shot is fired.

Rear sight too high- Rear sight higher than front sight.

1) Rear sight right- too much gap on the right side of the front sight.

2) Failing to continue to align sights during the trigger press- moving the
muzzle to the left while pressing the trigger.

Grip, stance, sight alignment, sight picture, breathing control, trigger control, follow through.

[g.willikers]

Don't forget the importance of good nourishment and hydration, especially the morning of an important and probably stressful activity.
Qualification probably counts as one.

[GMS3071]

Thank you very much all of you, glad I didn't come off as a complete moron and reading through your replies has really highlighted some good points I'm going to focus on over the upcoming weeks.

Thanks again :-)

[sakata8242]

Stance matters much, much less than people think. All it boils down to is sight alignment and trigger control. Whether you're on one foot, sitting, on your back, kneeling, or on your belly -- those two fundamentals don't change. If you're not hitting what you're aiming at, stance is one of the lowest yield things to be looking at.

[Art Eatman]

As a simple visual check on yourself: Holding the pistol in the firing position, first press the trigger while squeezing the grip with the other fingers. Watch the muscle in your forearm.

Now press the trigger with ONLY motion of the trigger finger. Again, watch the muscle in your forearm.

In the first effort, you see clenching. In the second, no.

The term I heard for the first example used is "wristing", causing impacts to be low and left.

[Shooterstarget]

Our Glock shooting TEAM spun off a group of shooters that wanted to get into Defensive Shooting. The way we teach a shooters stance is very open. You could be standing in a non-threating posture or leaning on a fence post. The point is stance is what you got to go along with the situation. You will NOT have time to set your feet under extreme conditions. Be comfortable shooting with many stances.

And yes increase your support hand clamping pressure. We call upon the grip from the support hand to be 75%, on the strong hand the remainder. This works well for all of my shooters.