Are pistol caliber rifles as good for personal defense?

vito · February 17, 2021, 09:13 PM

I rely upon my handguns for personal defense, both in my home and with what I carry when out of the house. I also keep a shotgun for when and if the SHTF scenarios. But in considering a rifle for more in depth defense I am concerned with over penetration from most traditional rifle rounds such as 30-30 or 30.06 or the like, and wondered if I would be better off with a rifle, such as a lever action rifle that uses a pistol round like 357mag. With my eyes and shaky hands as I age I am not thinking about ever having to target something that is hundreds of yards away, but want something that would do the job at closer distances, such as 100 yards. I admit to not knowing much about rifle effectiveness and hope to get some advice here.

Shadow9mm · February 17, 2021, 09:30 PM

357 mag out of a rifle is plenty good for deer out to 100yds....

ghbucky · February 17, 2021, 09:31 PM

Looking at it purely objectively, if a 357 or 9mm (or whatever your choice of handgun caliber is) are effective for self defense out of a handgun, they are certainly going to be as effective out of a rifle (or carbine) length barrel.

And you should get more muzzle velocity with the longer barrel.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 17, 2021, 09:44 PM

If your concern is over-penetration, before you buy anything I suggest you fire up YouTube and watch some of the penetration videos done by the guys at the Box O' Truth channel.

cslinger · February 17, 2021, 09:59 PM

How come everybody is tickled pink with a SIG P365 with its itty bitty 3in barrel but then questions whether or not a 16nch carbine is better then harsh language?

.357 out of a 16inch carbine is NO JOKE.
9mm out of a carbine gains a bit of ballistics while being FAR EASIER to shoot.

Now all that said. If penetration is a worry the box of truth suggestion is a good one but keep in mind pretty much ANY caliber/round worth relying on for SD is gonna zip right through at least a wall or 3.

rc · February 17, 2021, 11:22 PM

I would never use a 30 06 or 30 30 for defensive use. Just too much penetration and range to even consider in an urban area. Leave those for hunting and ranch use where there is open space between people. 223/5.56 only works in town when loaded with frangible ammo that fragments. Same for 7.62x39, 308 Winchester, etc.

I would suggest you consider a 30 carbine or 357 with a soft points or a heavy HP. 44 Special/Mag and 45 Colt are also viable options. Lightly constructed bullets fired from a 357 rifle can melt in mid air when pushed past 1500 or 1600fps. Found this out with some 125 grain winchester hollow point reloads! Nothing left but a splatter on the target by 50 yards. 158gr LSWC loads at 1100 to 1300fps or 38 special factory 125gr HP loads at about 1100 from a rifle will work fine. A semi auto rifle in 9mm or 40 caliber will give you a 100 to 200fps bump in speed over a handgun and your ability to hit beyond 30 yards will be much higher than from a handgun. A coyote hit with a HP from a 40 carbine will just flop over dead! Chances of over penetration with a 9mm rifle is much less than with a 357 rifle which if loaded with 158 JSP ammo would punch through a bunch of stuff before stopping. Another really good lever option to consider is the 327 Federal Henry. Think rimmed 30 carbine performance with several good HP and SP options.

What handgun calibers do you currently shoot? There may be a suitable carbine that will share the ammo with a handgun you own. Just please Nix the 30-30 or 30-06 as home defense options.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 18, 2021, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cslinger

How come everybody is tickled pink with a SIG P365 with its itty bitty 3in barrel but then questions whether or not a 16nch carbine is better then harsh language?

Velocity isn't the issue. Or, rather, velocity (too much thereof) is the issue. The OP is concerned about over-penetration. I think a .357 handgun is likely to be a candidate for over-penetration, and the added velocity out of a carbine barrel is only going to make the over-penetration more likely and more severe.

Tws3 · February 18, 2021, 10:29 AM

Any rifle with handgun calibers will do the job. "If" you can put the round where it needs to be. Can I? Should always come Before Will it?

7.62 man · February 18, 2021, 10:50 AM

An AR pistol in 9mm would be good for home defense but I wouldn't try it for a CC weapon.
The only problem with a rifle caliber pistol most rounds pack too much powder & not only will cause too much noise inside your home the muzzle flash could set something inside your house on fire. It would almost be like setting off a flash bang grenade.

pete2 · February 18, 2021, 11:40 AM

If you are not able to shoot a pistol well then a rifle will work just fine, shotgun works too.

RickB · February 18, 2021, 12:25 PM

.223 is both more effective, and less penetrative than most pistol rounds, if you choose the right bullet.
That said, I'm looking at the CMMG Banshee AR "pistol" in 10mm, though it would probably never need to hit anything but range gong at distances of more than 25 yards.

MarkCO · February 18, 2021, 12:34 PM

PCCs are far easier to shoot accurately than pistols. More so for older folks or those with mobility/strength limitations. That, in and of itself limits the potential of a round leaving since your hit percentage increases substantially.

I'd put a PCC in first place for a HD choice for most people and situations. Easier to run than a handgun, shotgun or rifle caliber, effective and, except for actual rifles, that much higher hit percentage is a real benefit that can not be denied.

**44 AMP** · February 18, 2021, 01:47 PM

Quote:

I think a .357 handgun is likely to be a candidate for over-penetration, and the added velocity out of a carbine barrel is only going to make the over-penetration more likely and more severe.

This is a yes and no kind of thing. And, in a way its like the .223, penetration depends on the BULLET and the velocity.

people advise using the .223 and soft point (varmint) bullets because those bullets expand and break up rapidly on minimal resistance and so penetrate LESS than standard pistol rounds, even JHP.

HOWEVER, if the shooter isn't aware of the differences in bullet construction, and thinks "bullets is bullets" and uses FMJ then their results will be vastly different.

And, to a degree this is the case with pistol bullets from carbine barrels, though not exactly the same way. A .357 Mag carbine can drive the 125gr JHP to speeds of 2200fps. (I've done it), and at those speeds the bullet is seriously overdriven. Its going too fast for its intended controlled expansion by several hundred feet per second and tends to act like a small grenade, "detonating" on impact.

Generally the bullet fragments impressively, acting like a varmint bullet, and penetration is low to almost none, compared to that same bullet fired from a pistol. The 158s are heavier built, and hold up a bit better, though they can reach speeds in the 1800-1900fps range, and so penetrate more than the 125s.

And any kind of non-expanding slug (like hard cast SWCs) penetrate like a son of a b..gun...with the added 5-600fps a carbine gives them.

Bullet selection MATTERS.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 18, 2021, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

If your concern is over-penetration, before you buy anything I suggest you fire up YouTube and watch some of the penetration videos done by the guys at the Box O' Truth channel.

I have to correct this. The original Box O' Truth is NOT a YouTube channel. It's a blog site, and it's chock full of interesting information if you are concerned (as everyone probably should be) about what happens when a bullet hits a wall:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...l-box-o-truth/

There is a YouTube channel on which the guy performs barrier testing similar to the original Box O' Truth. I haven't watched enough of his videos to be able to recommend them.

SIGSHR · February 18, 2021, 03:18 PM

First Rule of Self Defense: Have a gun.
Jeff Cooper's Addendum: Know how to use it. Owning a violin does not make you a musician.
Only caution I see to using a PCC carbine for home defense is there is the possibility an invader could grab the barrel.
A lever action carbine loaded with 38 Specials or 44 Specials would allow fast follow up shots, the extra weight will dampen recoil.

shurshot · February 18, 2021, 04:26 PM

A good quality .22 LR semi, lever or pump action rifle with CCI high velocity Velociraptor or Stingers would likely provide all the home protection 99% of Americans will ever need IMHO.

**44 AMP** · February 18, 2021, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Only caution I see to using a PCC carbine for home defense is there is the possibility an invader could grab the barrel.

Which would apply equally to any rifle caliber carbine or any shotgun.
And, might apply to any handgun at arms length as well.

Blue Jays · February 18, 2021, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickB

"...That said, I'm looking at the CMMG Banshee AR "pistol" in 10mm, though it would probably never need to hit anything but range gong at distances of more than 25 yards..."

Same here. They are spendy yet it seems one gets a really terrific quality firearm.

P Flados · February 18, 2021, 09:57 PM

Where practical, a lever action carbine in 357 mag sounds real good for a self defense gun.

I would recommend the 38 sp 158 gr JHP for SD ammo. I ran cases through Quickload and confirmed that at this weight, a regular 38 should be faster out a 16" or 18" than a 357 is out of a snubbie. It will have plenty of power and the combination of longer barrel and 38 power will make for so much less noise / blast.

Full magnums are probably more than you need for most self defense applications. You just do not need the extra noise / blast / penetration unless you are planning to either shoot across a yard or shoot something bigger than the typical 2 legged adversary.

And given that a 357 lever gun is just so much fun to shoot (with either 38s or 357s) is a big bonus. My son recently got a Henry and we are still working through load development with my cast bullets. I think we will end up with a full power 180 for longer range work and a very light 110 gr for plinking. He is not currently planning on using it for SD, but I do have some 38 +P 160 WFNs loaded (for other guns) that would work.

One note is that you need to make sure that the gun is pretty much 100% for feeding your chosen SD ammo. They can be picky and/or need "tuning" to get the reliability needed for SD.

Bayou · February 18, 2021, 10:14 PM

Agree that a 30 carbine would be a good fit for what the OP inquires...

Bayou

mk70ss · February 19, 2021, 12:06 PM

I like my Ruger PCC in 9mm. Mounted a red dot and it’s quick and accurate up close and out to 50 yards or so. It replaced the 12 gauge in the corner of the bedroom.

SIGSHR · February 20, 2021, 06:53 AM

One argument in favor of the Hi Point is that if it has to be taken for "evidence" it doesn't hurt as much.

MarkCO · February 20, 2021, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SIGSHR

One argument in favor of the Hi Point is that if it has to be taken for "evidence" it doesn't hurt as much.

I put my Sub2000 and PF9 in that category as well.

rc · February 20, 2021, 12:55 PM

A PCC does one thing better than a shotgun for sure. It allow precise placement of shots from 0 to 50 yards and beyond. Once a shotgun gets beyond 10 or 15 yards, it's hard to predict where buckshot is gona go. A shotgun slug may allow a bit more "precision" but risks over penetration and lacks accuracy compared with a PCC. In today's market the Ruger PCC is one of the best choices for "Home Defense".

bamaranger · February 23, 2021, 01:23 PM

Everyone will shoot a carbine/longarm more accurately than a handgun, at any distance beyond contact. Thus the autopistol caliber carbines bring an enhanced degree of accuracy to the game. However, the autopistol cartridges do not gain all that much steam from the longer carbine barrels. The exception to this may be the 10mm Auto, as the powder capacity is approaching the levels where the longer carbine tube may produce a useful increase in velocity. This same advantage can be applied to the magnum pistol cartridges, the .357 and .44. Those cartridges approach rifle ballistics inside of 100 yds when fired from a carbine. None of the pistol caliber cartridges, even the magnums, offer any extended range like a true rifle caliber.

If one is going to utilize a long arm/rifle, , with the inherent the lack of concealability, bulk in close quarters and weight, it seems prudent to take advantage of the increased incapacitation ability of the intermediate rifle calibers. There is a distinct edge to rifle calibers in their ability to stop an aggressor. The .223 as an example with correct projectiles is not particularly over penetrative, but offers a distinct edge in incapacitation.

The mag pistol cartridges from a carbine, properly loaded, may be in that same class. I can offer multiple examples of .357 carbines firing l125 grain projectiles and their destructiveness on tissue. I have never seen said factory load "melt and splatter." Similarly, I have found that .44/180-200 grain JHP's frequently will not exit a whitetail when shot from a carbine. But the mag pistol calibers do not offer any range.

The need for a cartridge with reach and penetration for personal defense can be debated. The big .30's, and the .223 can be loaded to offer more of same. Circumstances and locale would determine the "need".

February 17, 2021, 09:13 PM	#1
vito Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2004 Location: IL Posts: 853	Are pistol caliber rifles as good for personal defense? I rely upon my handguns for personal defense, both in my home and with what I carry when out of the house. I also keep a shotgun for when and if the SHTF scenarios. But in considering a rifle for more in depth defense I am concerned with over penetration from most traditional rifle rounds such as 30-30 or 30.06 or the like, and wondered if I would be better off with a rifle, such as a lever action rifle that uses a pistol round like 357mag. With my eyes and shaky hands as I age I am not thinking about ever having to target something that is hundreds of yards away, but want something that would do the job at closer distances, such as 100 yards. I admit to not knowing much about rifle effectiveness and hope to get some advice here. __________________ People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” ― George Orwell

February 17, 2021, 09:30 PM	#2
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,973	357 mag out of a rifle is plenty good for deer out to 100yds.... __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

February 17, 2021, 09:44 PM	#4
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,466	If your concern is over-penetration, before you buy anything I suggest you fire up YouTube and watch some of the penetration videos done by the guys at the Box O' Truth channel. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

February 17, 2021, 09:59 PM	#5
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	How come everybody is tickled pink with a SIG P365 with its itty bitty 3in barrel but then questions whether or not a 16nch carbine is better then harsh language? .357 out of a 16inch carbine is NO JOKE. 9mm out of a carbine gains a bit of ballistics while being FAR EASIER to shoot. Now all that said. If penetration is a worry the box of truth suggestion is a good one but keep in mind pretty much ANY caliber/round worth relying on for SD is gonna zip right through at least a wall or 3. __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

February 18, 2021, 12:25 PM	#11
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	.223 is both more effective, and less penetrative than most pistol rounds, if you choose the right bullet. That said, I'm looking at the CMMG Banshee AR "pistol" in 10mm, though it would probably never need to hit anything but range gong at distances of more than 25 yards. __________________ Runs off at the mouth about anything 1911 related on this site and half the time is flat out wrong.

February 17, 2021, 09:31 PM	#3
ghbucky Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2020 Posts: 1,177	Looking at it purely objectively, if a 357 or 9mm (or whatever your choice of handgun caliber is) are effective for self defense out of a handgun, they are certainly going to be as effective out of a rifle (or carbine) length barrel. And you should get more muzzle velocity with the longer barrel.

February 17, 2021, 11:22 PM	#6
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,767	I would never use a 30 06 or 30 30 for defensive use. Just too much penetration and range to even consider in an urban area. Leave those for hunting and ranch use where there is open space between people. 223/5.56 only works in town when loaded with frangible ammo that fragments. Same for 7.62x39, 308 Winchester, etc. I would suggest you consider a 30 carbine or 357 with a soft points or a heavy HP. 44 Special/Mag and 45 Colt are also viable options. Lightly constructed bullets fired from a 357 rifle can melt in mid air when pushed past 1500 or 1600fps. Found this out with some 125 grain winchester hollow point reloads! Nothing left but a splatter on the target by 50 yards. 158gr LSWC loads at 1100 to 1300fps or 38 special factory 125gr HP loads at about 1100 from a rifle will work fine. A semi auto rifle in 9mm or 40 caliber will give you a 100 to 200fps bump in speed over a handgun and your ability to hit beyond 30 yards will be much higher than from a handgun. A coyote hit with a HP from a 40 carbine will just flop over dead! Chances of over penetration with a 9mm rifle is much less than with a 357 rifle which if loaded with 158 JSP ammo would punch through a bunch of stuff before stopping. Another really good lever option to consider is the 327 Federal Henry. Think rimmed 30 carbine performance with several good HP and SP options. What handgun calibers do you currently shoot? There may be a suitable carbine that will share the ammo with a handgun you own. Just please Nix the 30-30 or 30-06 as home defense options.

February 18, 2021, 10:29 AM	#8
Tws3 Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2021 Posts: 6	Any rifle with handgun calibers will do the job. "If" you can put the round where it needs to be. Can I? Should always come Before Will it?

February 18, 2021, 10:50 AM	#9
7.62 man Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: Cyber-world USA Posts: 258	An AR pistol in 9mm would be good for home defense but I wouldn't try it for a CC weapon. The only problem with a rifle caliber pistol most rounds pack too much powder & not only will cause too much noise inside your home the muzzle flash could set something inside your house on fire. It would almost be like setting off a flash bang grenade.

February 18, 2021, 11:40 AM	#10
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	If you are not able to shoot a pistol well then a rifle will work just fine, shotgun works too.

February 18, 2021, 12:34 PM	#12
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,307	PCCs are far easier to shoot accurately than pistols. More so for older folks or those with mobility/strength limitations. That, in and of itself limits the potential of a round leaving since your hit percentage increases substantially. I'd put a PCC in first place for a HD choice for most people and situations. Easier to run than a handgun, shotgun or rifle caliber, effective and, except for actual rifles, that much higher hit percentage is a real benefit that can not be denied. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

February 18, 2021, 03:18 PM	#15
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	First Rule of Self Defense: Have a gun. Jeff Cooper's Addendum: Know how to use it. Owning a violin does not make you a musician. Only caution I see to using a PCC carbine for home defense is there is the possibility an invader could grab the barrel. A lever action carbine loaded with 38 Specials or 44 Specials would allow fast follow up shots, the extra weight will dampen recoil.

February 18, 2021, 04:26 PM	#16
shurshot Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2006 Posts: 1,819	A good quality .22 LR semi, lever or pump action rifle with CCI high velocity Velociraptor or Stingers would likely provide all the home protection 99% of Americans will ever need IMHO.

February 18, 2021, 09:57 PM	#19
P Flados Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2017 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 243	Where practical, a lever action carbine in 357 mag sounds real good for a self defense gun. I would recommend the 38 sp 158 gr JHP for SD ammo. I ran cases through Quickload and confirmed that at this weight, a regular 38 should be faster out a 16" or 18" than a 357 is out of a snubbie. It will have plenty of power and the combination of longer barrel and 38 power will make for so much less noise / blast. Full magnums are probably more than you need for most self defense applications. You just do not need the extra noise / blast / penetration unless you are planning to either shoot across a yard or shoot something bigger than the typical 2 legged adversary. And given that a 357 lever gun is just so much fun to shoot (with either 38s or 357s) is a big bonus. My son recently got a Henry and we are still working through load development with my cast bullets. I think we will end up with a full power 180 for longer range work and a very light 110 gr for plinking. He is not currently planning on using it for SD, but I do have some 38 +P 160 WFNs loaded (for other guns) that would work. One note is that you need to make sure that the gun is pretty much 100% for feeding your chosen SD ammo. They can be picky and/or need "tuning" to get the reliability needed for SD.

February 18, 2021, 10:14 PM	#20
Bayou Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2016 Location: SE Louisiana Posts: 300	Agree that a 30 carbine would be a good fit for what the OP inquires... Bayou __________________ Bayou NRA Life Member "Keep Calm and Reload"

February 19, 2021, 12:06 PM	#21
mk70ss Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2008 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,598	I like my Ruger PCC in 9mm. Mounted a red dot and it’s quick and accurate up close and out to 50 yards or so. It replaced the 12 gauge in the corner of the bedroom. __________________ Say when.....

February 20, 2021, 06:53 AM	#22
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	One argument in favor of the Hi Point is that if it has to be taken for "evidence" it doesn't hurt as much.

February 20, 2021, 12:55 PM	#24
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,767	A PCC does one thing better than a shotgun for sure. It allow precise placement of shots from 0 to 50 yards and beyond. Once a shotgun gets beyond 10 or 15 yards, it's hard to predict where buckshot is gona go. A shotgun slug may allow a bit more "precision" but risks over penetration and lacks accuracy compared with a PCC. In today's market the Ruger PCC is one of the best choices for "Home Defense".

February 23, 2021, 01:23 PM	#25
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	rifles & carbines Everyone will shoot a carbine/longarm more accurately than a handgun, at any distance beyond contact. Thus the autopistol caliber carbines bring an enhanced degree of accuracy to the game. However, the autopistol cartridges do not gain all that much steam from the longer carbine barrels. The exception to this may be the 10mm Auto, as the powder capacity is approaching the levels where the longer carbine tube may produce a useful increase in velocity. This same advantage can be applied to the magnum pistol cartridges, the .357 and .44. Those cartridges approach rifle ballistics inside of 100 yds when fired from a carbine. None of the pistol caliber cartridges, even the magnums, offer any extended range like a true rifle caliber. If one is going to utilize a long arm/rifle, , with the inherent the lack of concealability, bulk in close quarters and weight, it seems prudent to take advantage of the increased incapacitation ability of the intermediate rifle calibers. There is a distinct edge to rifle calibers in their ability to stop an aggressor. The .223 as an example with correct projectiles is not particularly over penetrative, but offers a distinct edge in incapacitation. The mag pistol cartridges from a carbine, properly loaded, may be in that same class. I can offer multiple examples of .357 carbines firing l125 grain projectiles and their destructiveness on tissue. I have never seen said factory load "melt and splatter." Similarly, I have found that .44/180-200 grain JHP's frequently will not exit a whitetail when shot from a carbine. But the mag pistol calibers do not offer any range. The need for a cartridge with reach and penetration for personal defense can be debated. The big .30's, and the .223 can be loaded to offer more of same. Circumstances and locale would determine the "need".