Practicing with reloaded ammo

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by dyl

I'm thinking of two church shootings, a head shot with a single round on the man that had the shotgun, and the one where the two citizens chased the man in a truck afterwards.

The second one was a man who lived half a block away from the church responding to the sound of gunfire with a scoped AR-15, and engaging the shooter from across the street. That's hardly a typical self-defense situation, and IMHO not even a little bit applicable to this discussion.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

Two isolated incidences among thousands of self defense shootings isn't really a reason to "overintelectualize" on what ammo to practice with.
Why worry about bullseye accuracy on a stationary target when in self defense use the target will be moving, jumping, charging, grabbing, punching, stabbing, shooting, or who knows what else.
All those shots fired on paper that are an inch or two off point of aim aren't going to be of any significance anyway.

I disagree to an extent on the last part. A few inches one way or the other can turn what would have been a debilitating shot into something that wasn’t and then the fight goes on, giving your assailant more time to hurt you. I agree that it is not a bullseye competition, but we can look at a number of shootings where assailants were hit multiple times and kept fighting (perhaps the Miami FBI shooting being one of the most famous examples). The assailants weren’t stopped until a shot to the right area was delivered.

These are two other examples, and we can find more as handgun wounds are generally survivable (I understand these examples are police shootings and we can argue that they represent circumstances unlikely to be seen in a self defense shooting, my point here is to demonstrate that shot placement can be critical):
https://www.policemag.com/340305/sho...ida-01-26-2008
https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/

Now is shot placement something totally under your control? No, as you pointed out the target will be moving and has a will of his/her own. But given how much is out of your control why add to that by using ammunition that doesn’t match your point of aim, one thing you hopefully can control?


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[GE-Minigun]

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

Why not? Again, another case of over thinking. In a defensive shooting situation you, tye gun, or tye attacker you are defending against aren't going to know any difference.


Says it all!

You’re practicing to potentially save your life…I for one would not want to practice with anything other than ammo that “feels” the same to me. Granted you are correct, in that 99.7% of people will never know the difference when the balloon goes up and shots are fired, however I’m not going to be in that .3%. if it truly didn’t make a difference what you practiced with why do all the pro’s practice with the ammo they use…a 22 would save them a train load of cash through their career.

[Jim Watson]

My IDPA loads are mild 147 or 124 gr loads.

My defense loads are 115 gr factory JHP.
I will every once in a while load a batch of full power 115s for practice, or buy some econoball on sale. The bullet type doesn't matter, as long as I get something close for flash, bang, and kick, it is good for practice. The last I made up with plated bullets I got from a friend who was changing to subsonic for match shooting.

I have read of people going to a lot of trouble to match their defense or duty ammo. Most are content with same bullet weight, same velocity like I am. But I recall one long thread describing a search for a reload that FELT just right.

[Cheapshooter]

I disagree to an extent on the last part. A few inches one way or the other can turn what would have been a debilitating shot into something that wasn’t and then the fight goes on, giving your assailant more time to hurt you.

The "few inches" I was referring to was on that stationary target.
I'm not saying no practice with your carry ammo. Always good to run a mag or cylinder full to make sure it is hitting where you think it is. At least increasing your odds to some extent of hitting an important area of that moving target. But it isn't necessary to practice exclusively with your expensive carry ammo. Unless your practice is only that mag or two.
That in itself could be a very good reason to practice with reloads, or range ammo. Can you afford to shoot a hundred rounds of carry ammo? How often? If not, under the guise of practice with what you shoot, how much practice can you afford.

but we can look at a number of shootings where assailants were hit multiple times and kept fighting

But again, hitting that magic spot on a moving, possibly charging, attacking target Is as much influenced by luck as itbis pinpoint accuracy.
Simple example, but for possible safety reasons, don't really do it....but, every try to dove hunt with a 22 handgun?

if it truly didn’t make a difference what you practiced with why do all the pro’s practice with the ammo they use

LOL, because the ammo companies give it to them to promote their products! Then they, with due diligence, convince people that the negligible difference in range ammo, and expensive defensive ammo is much more important than it is.
You want to shoot up a hundred plus bucks in defensive ammo to practice every couple weeks or so, the ammo companies will certainly appreciate it
I find that after a hundred or so rounds of range ammo, or reloadt, I can still hit with a few rounds of SD ammo exactly where I did before all the cheap ammo practice.

FireForge said it all in post#8

I think you guys are overintellectualizing the process. This sounds like one of those threads where someone who carries a +p load feels that the sky is falling if you don't practice with a +p equivalent. I just cant get on board with that being some sort of big deal. To me, its not.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

The "few inches" I was referring to was on that stationary target.
I'm not saying no practice with your carry ammo. Always good to run a mag or cylinder full to make sure it is hitting where you think it is. At least increasing your odds to some extent of hitting an important area of that moving target. But it isn't necessary to practice exclusively with your expensive carry ammo. Unless your practice is only that mag or two.
That in itself could be a very good reason to practice with reloads, or range ammo. Can you afford to shoot a hundred rounds of carry ammo? How often? If not, under the guise of practice with what you shoot, how much practice can you afford.


But again, hitting that magic spot on a moving, possibly charging, attacking target Is as much influenced by luck as itbis pinpoint accuracy.
Simple example, but for possible safety reasons, don't really do it....but, every try to dove hunt with a 22 handgun?

At no point here have I said you need to practice exclusively with carry ammo. I’ve been saying the opposite since the beginning. The question that was asked by the OP is whether you would have to practice with hollowpoints. I and most of the people I have seen respond here has said no you don’t. What some people have said is that finding range ammo that matches the POI of your defensive ammo may be a good idea. Some people have disagreed and that started a back and forth.

I completely agree that hitting a moving target is a challenge (I said as much). My point here is having ammo where the POI matches the POA takes out one variable that you actually can control, which is why I responded to your comment about a few inches not mattering. The shots that ended those fights weren’t luck. The positioning of the assailants isn’t under your control, but the bullets had to hit those critical areas, the brain and the spinal chord, to end those fights (if you read the accounts they were deliberate shots). Doing that while knowing your shots may hit inches off makes it even harder.


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[Cheapshooter]

Again, what I am saying is knowing that your cheap practice ammo might hit a few centimeters off point of aim from your carry ammo makes little difference. Being able to afford more ammo to practice with does. Be it handloads, or cheap range ammo. If there is such a thing as "cheap" range ammo any more.

[TunnelRat]

And as I stated way back at the beginning, I never said it had to be exact to the point of dragging out the calipers. I've found plenty of range ammo that matches the POI of the ammo I carry to a point where I say, "Good enough".

Edit:
My response in #27 was because it seemed like the post I was replying to was downplaying the role of accuracy in a self defense shooting. While I agree it’s not a bullseye match and there are factors you can’t control, the generally low lethality of handgun rounds do require good hits.

Now if I misinterpreted that and the only point was that slightly off target hits don’t matter with range ammo okay then. To that I would say is a big reason I go to the range is to evaluate my own shooting. If my range ammo doesn’t match to the POA of my sights, with the sights set to have POA/POI for my carry ammo, then it makes it somewhat harder to evaluate my shooting if off target hits might be the ammo and not me. That’s why I personally like the POI of my range ammo to match my carry ammo, at least to a point that visually seems good enough. And again, I’ve not found it hard to do this. I don’t reload but I do look at cost when I buy ammo. Even cheaper 115 gr loads still match the POI of my carry ammo. As for shooting my carry ammo, I usually run a box through each pistol once and call it at that. Then I shoot carry ammo as I take it out of use from age.

[pete2]

In reality my 9MM guns print 115 and 124s in the same place on the target. Maybe +/- an inch, maybe closer than that. In the revolvers sometimes there is a great difference between a 110 and a 158 gr bullet, better test this before depending on it. Again, most self defense situations are gonna be close range. To be really prepared for any situation from 3 feet to 50 yards I would want a 6" .357 revolver, I'm too uncomfortable carrying a 6" gun concealed. There is no 100% guarantee on this stuff.

[Cheapshooter]

It isn't that accuracy doesn't matter. Being able to repeatedly hit that right spot on a stationary target will to a degree improve your chances of hitting the right spit on a moving, sometimes erratically moving, target.
When practicing are all your shots hitting the same exact spot? All one hole? Or are they in a group.
Now, what if you shoot a group of five with the best, most expensive SD ammo you can find. The best, most accurate ammo you can find for your gun. Then, without changing targets, or point of aim, shoot five rounds of the cheapest range ammo you can find. Are there now two distinctive groups of five holes? Or did the original five round group just get a little bigger?

[TunnelRat]

I get where you’re going, but let’s just skip to the point. You seem to be arguing that a person doesn’t have to spend large amounts of money to have effective practice. This is something I have stated myself since this conversation started and I have explained how what I do fits with that just fine (see my previous responses). Rather than keep repeating myself, I’ll call it a day.


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[dyl]

I agree with what you say, but it doesn't explain why it's okay to practice with a .22 but not okay to practice with target ammo in your carry gun. The things that transfer from target ammo to defensive ammo are the same things that transfer from a .22 to your carry gun. That goes for both helpful things and destructive things.

I never said that there is a clear border between "okay" and "not okay" to practice one or the other. In fact, I did say that there were gains depending on how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go. How into simulating your carry load are you? Then you make the judgment call based on your factors, such as cost, convenience, and equipment (reloader or not). I don't always practice with the same weight projectiles as my carry loads, but I have let my knowledge of how well a certain carry load prints and availability inform my chosen carry load so they are close enough for me.

The second one was a man who lived half a block away from the church responding to the sound of gunfire with a scoped AR-15, and engaging the shooter from across the street. That's hardly a typical self-defense situation, and IMHO not even a little bit applicable to this discussion.

I mention the church shooting because I didn't feel like digging around for half an hour for common home invasion news stories that are less well known. I could look for all these citations from news channels, but I do believe I could instead say that most home invasions where the homeowner had time to call 911, but still had to discharge a firearm (surely you've heard/seen a few of these) were not done at *belly gun distance*. That's all my assertion was, that not all defensive shootings are at belly gun distance where you are nearly guaranteed a hit barring a malfunction or interference. Because the impression I was getting was that folks were assuming factors affecting accuracy don't matter. Also, with that church shooting, if the responder didn't have an AR-15 with a red dot (which he did) but only had a pistol instead, that would be an argument for saying accuracy makes a difference, as he chose shots in gaps in his armor.

Being able to repeatedly hit that right spot on a stationary target will to a degree improve your chances of hitting the right spit on a moving, sometimes erratically moving, target.

Hey we agree on something! Shooting an optimal load on a stationary target will tell you how your fundamentals are doing in optimal conditions. Some of which will translate to an emergency situation. Under stress the 1 hole group probably opens up to a 6 inch pattern. But if your best is a 6 inch pattern on a stationary target at 7 yards and add stress to that, it may not be good. In a dynamic situation where you add in a moving sight picture, instability, I'd rather start with a load and fundamentals that do allow me tighter groups as a baseline, because in addition to my instability, imagine a load that adds a couple inches high when my sight picture is already higher than it should, or say 2 inches low and to the left when my sight picture is already low and to the left.

Anyways, any deliberate practice is better than none. Any other factors you want on top of that to simulate your carry round is gravy. Some like more gravy than others and it informs their decisions, and consider their gravy a personal requirement.

[Cheapshooter]

Hey we agree on something! Shooting an optimal load on a stationary target will tell you how your fundamentals are doing in optimal conditions. Some of which will translate to an emergency situation. Under stress the 1 hole group probably opens up to a 6 inch pattern.

So in that thinking your best SD practice would be done with quality target loads that may well be much less powerful than your carry loads.
Which again reinforces my thought that what you practice with isn't nearly as important as how much you practice. A lot of shooting with more affordable range ammo, with some additional shooting with your expensive carry ammo is much better than a little practice with the high priced ammo.

[jrothWA]

As long as the reloads are identical to carry ammo, not problem.
You are practicing with equal rounds, so you know the recoila dnreaction of the firearm.

I carry a .38 Spl load that hornady doesn't make, my practise loads matched the bu;llet and velocity and I would soot "bowling pins" with that ammo froma 2" J-frame.

Agood hit on the central axis column, would SLLOOOWly push the pin backwards and off the table.

[FireForged]

Being concerned that your training ammo is not the mirror equivalent of your carry ammo, is just silly business(IMO)

If I wanted to do some handwringing over something, I would consider whether or not my personal skills are up to the task, not whether or not I might experience a fraction of a kilogram difference in inertia or that my POI with carry ammo might be a few millimeters different.

There are plenty of issues which can likely make the difference between winning or losing a gunfight. In my opinion, this aint it.

[BJung]

Go ahead and flame me if you like. Here are some options to consider.

Shooting at such close range, focusing on proper sight picture and trigger pull is key. I'm also thrifty. So, why not practice with an airsoft; or glue gun bullets if you have a revolver or want to take one shot at a time for practice. I made 50 glue gun loads for my nephew using a Lee mold, Q-tip, olive oil, and a glue gun. I separated the worse brass I had and drilled out the primer pockets and the glue gun bullets were good to go. At 15', the bullets can go through one side of a cardboard box.. Replace the primer and push the bullet back into the case by hand and you're ready to shoot again. The sound of the primer is like a cap gun. You can look it up but one of the primer makers makes lead-free primers.

[dyl]

So in that thinking your best SD practice would be done with quality target loads that may well be much less powerful than your carry loads.
Which again reinforces my thought that what you practice with isn't nearly as important as how much you practice. A lot of shooting with more affordable range ammo, with some additional shooting with your expensive carry ammo is much better than a little practice with the high priced ammo.

No, by optimal load I'm not necessarily talking about the practice rounds, but the carry round you approximate your practice rounds upon. For example, I have in front of me a cool Christmas gift, a box of "NOVX Engagement : Extreme Self Defense, 9mm luger ARX 65 grain/ 1575 fps / 358 ft-lbs" A 65 grain bullet. I've mentioned this example several times. It patterns poorly in my actual carry pistol, hence it is NOT an optimal load for my pistol. And I'm not able to get cheap practice ammo anywhere near this. So I choose a carry load more accurate in my carry pistol, one which the point of impact matches my point of aim, and cheap practice ammo that roughly impacts in the same place is available. Except I reload so I find cheap projectiles with similar weight or point of impact, rather than match actual pulled gold dots for every practice session..

I made 50 glue gun loads for my nephew using a Lee mold, Q-tip, olive oil, and a glue gun.

Nice! My brother did something similar with wax pullets in a 44 mag casing. I think he just got a block of wax and melted it in a pyrex dish, put a primed case face down in it, and waited for it to cool. But it was a while ago, process may be different.... accuracy wasn't as nice as your rounds, but it was fun for 5 yards and in.

[BJung]

I like saving Winchester, Remington, and Federal brass for my pistol reloads.

But, there's the IMI brass. It's said to have the thickest case walls and the weight SD is high. But, when resized, the case holds the glue gun bullets nice and snug so the glue gun bullets don't fall into the case. That's for a .38, but I'd expect the same for a 9mm cases

[Unclenick]

Roland Thunder,

In revolvers, bullet weight difference has a significant effect on short-range POI because the same pressure pushing a heavier weight bullet produces the same recoil force, but applies it for a longer barrel time, giving recoil more time to elevate the muzzle before the bullet clears it. That effect depends on the revolver conveying recoil to your hand(s) simultaneously with its creation. In most semi-autos, though, the mass of the slide absorbs the recoil and only transfers it to your hand(s) while the slide is being brought to a stop in counterbattery. That happens through the recoil springs being compressed and the slide striking the frame in counterbattery. That transfer delays the recoil reaching your hands. As a result, the recoil that flips the semi-auto muzzle up is also delayed, and that flip mainly occurs after the bullet has left home. The result is that different levels of recoil and different levels of bullet weight don't produce nearly as much change in semi-auto pistol short-range POI as they do in a revolver.

I would take some samples of several of your loads and a few rounds of your defense loads to the range and see if the change in POI is significant at the longest target range you intend to use them to score points with. Only if it becomes an issue do you need to worry about it.

[TunnelRat]

I’m not sure why that was directed at me in particular, but okay.


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[Unclenick]

TunnelRat,

It happened because of brain gas. I've been staring at the computer all day and transposed your name with Roland's. I have corrected the post.

[TunnelRat]

No problem. I was actually more concerned I had said something about revolvers and didn’t remember it. My memory hasn’t been great as of late.


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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

No problem. I was actually more concerned I had said something about revolvers and didn’t remember it. My memory hasn’t been great as of late.

Welcome to the club.

[Mannlicher]

I use my hand loads for self defense, and practice with those same loads.

[rodfac]

The result is that different levels of recoil and different levels of bullet weight don't produce nearly as much change in semi-auto pistol short-range POI as they do in a revolver.

I have often wondered about that difference between revolver and auto pistol POI changes; heavy bullet vs. lighter bullet. 60+ years of short gun shooting and I'm still learning...thanx for the explanation Unclenick. Best regards, Rod