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Old February 16, 2017, 01:37 PM   #51
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I wasn't meaning to sound like a 'nay-sayer'.
I've only seen one Mare's Leg being fired and because of the club rules it was said to be a center-fire rifle and had to be shot from a sitting position at a bench.
The AR pistol I saw fired was held very close to the face of the firer. Both seemed awkward.
I had a Mauser C96 and I was thinking the hold for that pistol would be the hold used on a pistol caliber AR pistol. You know Weaver or Isosceles?
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Old February 16, 2017, 08:01 PM   #52
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As to the Heizer, I almost think of it as a modern version of the FP45 Liberator...a one shot deal to a get a more viable firearm in an occupied scenario. I think it's interesting, but not something you'd want to run 100 rounds through at the range.

Now, there are a lot of misconceptions of the AR or AK styled pistols. These, I find intriguing and far more functional than most give them credit for. What they have become are pseudo SBRs without the NFA and cross-state-line hassle. I've been quite surprised by the ease to accurately and rapidly engage targets out to 100-150 meters with these "pistols". The rifle calibers are a little overbearing with muzzle flash, but having used a 300 Blackout with suppressor really shows the value.

Moving on down to 9mm type "pistols", they provide even more functional and versatile, especially when suppressed. If these are modern-day mare's legs, they are far more capable then their big-screen historical counterparts.





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Old February 17, 2017, 09:08 AM   #53
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Quote:
I wasn't meaning to sound like a 'nay-sayer'.
I've only seen one Mare's Leg being fired and because of the club rules it was said to be a center-fire rifle and had to be shot from a sitting position at a bench.
I think you asked a reasonable question. It's much better to ask than assume.

Quote:
The AR pistol I saw fired was held very close to the face of the firer. Both seemed awkward.
I had a Mauser C96 and I was thinking the hold for that pistol would be the hold used on a pistol caliber AR pistol. You know Weaver or Isosceles?
You definitely do not want to shoot one of these with your arms out front like a traditional handgun. It's too large and heavy for that and you'll never get it stable enough for any kind of accuracy. It would be no better than shooting a rifle or carbine from the hip.

Have you ever shot an AR15 rifle or carbine? (not trying to be insulting, just asking) You shoot the AR pistol same as the AR rifle/carbine.

You want a good cheek weld and your nose touching the charging handle. So yes, you do hold it close to your face. You use the buffer tube to your advantage. This is why on AR pistols, you usually see a pad on the buffer tube.

The only difference is you don't touch your shoulder. So you use a sling as the 4th point of contact. Instead of pushing a rifle stock back into your shoulder, you pull the AR pistol away with your support hand and use sling tension around your back to provide that extra stability.

It's not difficult, but it is a unique technique that a lot of people just don't know or understand. You won't win any Camp Perry matches, but from a standing, sitting or kneeling field position, I'd go up against a guy with a similarly equipped carbine out to 100y maybe even 200y.

Last edited by DMK; February 17, 2017 at 09:25 AM.
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Old February 17, 2017, 09:23 AM   #54
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C96 isn't a light weight and I wished it came with the wooden holster.
I have an AR. When I can stand up and shoot I bring the rifle up to my head, I was taught not to lower or crane my neck down to make a cheek weld. I do this with all my rifles from 22LR thru .30'06.
My nose isn't close to the charge handle, bolt or back of the receiver. I only have peep or open sighted rifles.
My local range only allows rimfire to shoot from a standing position (yeah no prone or kneeling) all centerfire must be benched. A bit of a PITA but it is in the middle of Florida's most densely populated county, Pinellas.
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Old February 17, 2017, 09:32 AM   #55
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C96 isn't a light weight and I wished it came with the wooden holster.
Nice gun! I bet that thing is kinda heavy.

Ergonomically, it's much different than an AR15 though. You have to use whatever advantage you can get. The AR pistol has that buffer tube. You can use it to your advantage, just like you can use the sling to your advantage. That buffer tube is one reason why I think AR pistols are better than AK pistols. You can't get the same level of stability with an AK pistol.

Quote:
I have an AR. When I can stand up and shoot I bring the rifle up to my head, I was taught not to lower or crane my neck down to make a cheek weld. I do this with all my rifles from 22LR thru .30'06.
My nose isn't close to the charge handle, bolt or back of the receiver. I only have peep or open sighted rifles.
I believe it was the Marines that came up with the nose to charging handle thing. And they were doing it with iron sights. It's a way to ensure a consistent cheek weld so your eye is always in the center of that rear peep.
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Old February 17, 2017, 11:31 AM   #56
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As far as I can see, the only physical difference between an AR "pistol" and a carbine is that the pistol doesn't have a butt PLATE.

As long as you still have the buffer tube sticking out the rear of the receiver, there is no significant advantage in length over a carbine with the same length barrel.

Remember, a "carbine" can have ANY length barrel, as long as it is shorter than the "standard rifle" barrel, it qualifies as a carbine. The Fed calls it an SBR if the barrel is under 16", but its STILL a carbine.

USEFUL??

Any functional firearm is useful, to some degree, in the right circumstances.

But I don't see any of these AR pistols being well suited to any of the traditional handgun roles.

Quote:
I believe it was the Marines that came up with the nose to charging handle thing. And they were doing it with iron sights. It's a way to ensure a consistent cheek weld so your eye is always in the center of that rear peep.
It's also a uniform standard for teaching people who don't know how to shoot, to shoot your way. And the military is big on standards, whether they are the best thing or not.

Doesn't work so well if you're shooting something that actually recoils, though...
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Old February 17, 2017, 11:38 AM   #57
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They arent suited to the traditional handgun role, nor are they trying to be.

They are simply called "pistols", and configured without a stock, so they arent SBR's, which is really what they are.
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Old February 17, 2017, 11:46 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMK
You definitely do not want to shoot one of these with your arms out front like a traditional handgun. It's too large and heavy for that and you'll never get it stable enough for any kind of accuracy. It would be no better than shooting a rifle or carbine from the hip.
How accurate is an AR-15 style pistol at 10-15 yards shooting it like a normal handgun and is the accuracy any worse than a normal handgun?
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Old February 17, 2017, 12:15 PM   #59
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I would say its as or more accurate than most pistols, assuming you could hold it in that manner and be consistent with it, which I think would be an issue for most trying to shoot them that way.

If your gun is equipped with peeps, youre not going to be using them like that. A red dot would be a better choice.

I really dont understand why you would be shooting it in that manner though. Makes no sense.

Even without a brace, and using the tube for a cheek weld (and even better, adding a sling), you can shoot the gun more accurately than you would most handguns, and at distances most probably wouldnt think of trying with a handgun. These really are SBR's, and not pistols.
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Old February 17, 2017, 12:23 PM   #60
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They are highly efficient for speeding along your deafness and blindness.

You probably won't have eye or hearing protection in a defense scenario, so the inescapable reality is that you'll have to face these issues. A suppressor and flash hider can help with this, but then you're getting longer and longer. I wouldn't bother with a barrel less than ~11" for .223 personally if I was going to do this. Such a device is not an ideal home defense weapon, so unless you are a real (not imaginary/internet) commando and are raiding buildings, or a drug dealer/gangster and need one for your trench coat, the only other purpose beyond fun I could imagine would be as car gun if you think you may be caught in a riot!!

I think a 9mm "pistol" could take care of this role, although as much as I love Sig, I am NOT paying $1800 for a freakin' 9mm!! The CZ Scorpion could be an option, but the 9mm "pistols" are really more or less toys IMO....that's not to say I don't want one! But the lack of practical uses + having to jump through ATF hoops to SBR puts them on the back burner for me.
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Old February 17, 2017, 01:19 PM   #61
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They are highly efficient for speeding along your deafness and blindness.
Im already pretty much deaf. Use AAC BO flash suppressors on all my AR's, so I can still see OK.

I do use a suppressor, on both my 16" and 10.5" guns. The 10.5" is the handier gun. I still wouldnt want to shoot either indoors though, suppressor or not.

A .22 outdoors without protection leaves me pretty much without hearing for a couple of days. I can shoot that 10.5" outdoors with the suppressor with no protection, and it doesnt bother me at all. So Id probably still be better off indoors with it, than even a .22.

With the advent of pistol/shotgun caliber armor, the pistol caliber guns, handgun or long gun, were pretty much done right there. Even guns with a selector. SMG sized rifle caliber guns are now the weapon of choice there. AR (and AK) "pistols" fit right in.
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Old February 17, 2017, 04:18 PM   #62
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But I don't see any of these AR pistols being well suited to any of the traditional handgun roles.
No they are not. Quite simply they are replacements for short barreled carbines for situations where it is legally awkward or impossible to have an SBR. If there was no NFA, there would be no reason for these to exist.

Quote:
How accurate is an AR-15 style pistol at 10-15 yards shooting it like a normal handgun and is the accuracy any worse than a normal handgun?
That would be an extremely inefficient way to shoot it.

You can try shooting your AR carbine like a handgun too, but does it make sense to do so?

Quote:
I wouldn't bother with a barrel less than ~11" for .223 personally if I was going to do this
I tend to agree, although mine is a 10.5" and thats the shortest I'd go with an AR.

If you look at what Colt was trying to do with the Commando, they had problems with the shorter barrels.

The Navy is now using the 10.5" Mk 18 mod 0 and they had to tweak it a little, but they are also using it for full auto.

10" is also the shortest you can go with the CAR gas system. The pistol gas system puts the gas port too close to the chamber IMO.
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Old February 17, 2017, 05:24 PM   #63
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This is kind of crazy, and not useful for anything at all, maybe some ooohs and aahhs, but it is pretty cool though. I guess you could call it a "snubby".

If you look close, you can see the tip of the bullet poking out of the front.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmZSFBy9CZ8
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Old February 17, 2017, 07:41 PM   #64
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Its crazy that thing even cycles. It must have something like a gas trap on it.
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Old February 18, 2017, 02:16 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FairWarning
They are highly efficient for speeding along your deafness and blindness.

You probably won't have eye or hearing protection in a defense scenario, so the inescapable reality is that you'll have to face these issues. A suppressor and flash hider can help with this, but then you're getting longer and longer.
This is exactly where the 9mm AR Pistol shines. 32 rounds, 8" barrel, 3 points of contact, and somewhat tolerable noise levels. Shooting my 9mm AR Pistol outside without hearing protection, for several shots, isn't bad at all. Its certainly less noise than my 5.56 AR Pistol without hearing protection.
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Old February 18, 2017, 03:50 AM   #66
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I completely disagree about blast, flash, and 'horrible' muzzle velocities in "shorter than 10.5 inch" barrels.

I have a 7.5" AR-15 pistol chambered for 5.56x45mm.
I built it as a "toy" with no real hope of utility. But...

It was assembled from a hodgepodge of parts (at least 13 different manufacturers!), and has not malfunctioned ... ever. (A big issue with many AR pistols - regardless of barrel length.)

Blast and flash are no worse than a 16" carbine. (With nothing but a YHM 5C2 on the pistol.)

In theory, they should be worse. But, in reality, it's no different than a carbine.

Muzzle velocity is down. There's no arguing about that. But, anyone that wants to argue about the effectiveness of a 2,000 fps 55 gr SP can be the first volunteer as a test subject for terminal performance.

With my 20" DPMS barrel, squirrels explode. With my 7.5" (unknown manufacturer) barrel, squirrels explode.
Yea, there's a notable difference between 3,000(+) fps and 2,000 fps; but 2,000 fps is still nothing to sneeze at.

In 2009, SWAT magazine did a test with a 7.5" upper receiver, and found that 75 gr OTM (non-AP) loads still blasted through Level III body armor and their test dummy at 25 yards from a "too short" 7.5" barrel. Trauma plate. Vest. Dummy. All dead.
What more do you want?



Yes, it's short.
Absolutely, you're losing velocity from a 20" barrel.
No, it's not a .22 LR.
No, it's not useless.

But, no, it's not really useful, either.

My 7.5" AR is the only real "range toy" that I own. I take it out after ground squirrels, badgers, and coyotes; and have been known to have it as a "truck gun" on certain big game hunts. But, other than that... it's just for fun.
Is it good for hunting paper? Not really. (My choice of sights precludes such.)
Is it good for hunting big game? Not really. (See previous comment about sights.)
Is it good for hunting small game? Not really. - It kills stuff really well, but it's difficult to eat the meat if you can't find it, because said rabbit/squirrel exploded.
Is it good for concealed carry? Stop living in a fantasy...
Is it a rifle? No. But it shoots like an SBR.
Is it a good pistol? Absolutely not. The damned thing weighs 5.5 lbs!

Would I build another? Absolutely. Everyone loves it. Ruger 77/22 Hornet (close equivalent)? Fun, but ... meh. Standard .223/5.56 AR? Common place, and ... meh. 7.5" AR pistol? Everyone wants to get trigger happy.
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Old February 18, 2017, 06:12 PM   #67
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This might be helpful to some.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html
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Old Yesterday, 11:44 AM   #68
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Web lance, Enjoy shooting without hearing protection now because in a few years with your ears ringing 24/7 and five thousand dollars in hearing aids from VA you will be able to understand about half of what you hear. Personal experience, and I wear 32db muffs for just about every thing noisy ( including vacuum) trying to keep what is left intact.
Without the hearing aids it sounds like you have a bucket over your head when you talk.
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Old Yesterday, 12:01 PM   #69
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What?
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Old Yesterday, 12:08 PM   #70
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We had a power outage in my smaller city. In case there was looting, I carried as many guns as I could when we drove around the city. Luckily there wasn't any. I didn't have an AR pistol back then.

If it happened again, you bet your ass I'd have it with me. Even with the ballistics it take care of many people. It's effective enough, and more easy to handle that my 454 Casull with similar ballistics.


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