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Old November 3, 2017, 09:52 PM   #51
Nanuk
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Some of the 125 Buff Bore 357 can get you to 700 ft lbs in a 4" wheeler.

Try that with your G19 and I'll bet the frame cracks or worse.
https://underwoodammo.com/product/ha...-hollow-point/

What I carry in my Glock and S&W Shield.
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Old November 3, 2017, 09:56 PM   #52
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The 357 magnum and 357 Sig have more energy than the 9mm. But does that mean that the 9mm is functionally less effective? Just for comparison, here are the 357 Sig and 357 Mag with 125s and the 9mm with a standard velocity load with a 147, the new round the FBI selected. I believe in an actual self-defense situation, they are all about equally effective. (All Speer factory loadings. The product number is displayed) YMMV


Last edited by saleen322; November 3, 2017 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Factory Speer loads
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Old November 3, 2017, 10:02 PM   #53
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Those 125 grain 357 magnum loads are very slow. They should be about 100 fps faster for a full magnum load. My 4" Ruger shoots 140 grain bullets faster than those. From the 4" barrel the 140 grain bullets leave the muzzle at 1464 fps average. (and I am a half grain below maximum loads)
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Old November 3, 2017, 10:14 PM   #54
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When 9mm and 357 Magnum are loaded to their upper limits and fired from similar barrel lengths with similar weight bullets, the 357 Magnum is clearly more powerful.

That said, in the real world ( especially where CC guns are concerned) there are circumstances where the gap narrows. For instance... A conversation I had with a guy once who was arguing that his 357 mag was way more powerful than my 9mm. The problem was that in this particular circumstance, I was carrying a full size model loaded with very hot +P ammo, while he had a snub nose loaded with average velocity magnums. After crunching the numbers we concluded that his 357 was throwing a 125 grain bullet at the nearly the same speed that my 9mm was a 124 grain bullet.

When an apples-to-apples comparison is made, 357 is undoubtedly more powerful. But sometimes barrel length and bullet selection make more of a difference that caliber. Sometimes.
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Old November 4, 2017, 04:33 AM   #55
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When 9mm and 357 Magnum are loaded to their upper limits and fired from similar barrel lengths with similar weight bullets, the 357 Magnum is clearly more powerful.
Therein lies the rub...
Lay a K frame 2 1/2" snub nose on top of a Browning Hi Power.
The two are identical in size, with the edge in thickness going to - the Hi Power being the thinner.

Given the choice of which to carry....

Hands down the Hi Power is the clear winner - - in every respect.
- flatter, easier to conceal.
- 13 rounds vs six
- rate of fire (PLEASE - No Jerry M comments. No one is that accurate at that speed)
- velocity of a 124/125 gr JHP - - 1141 for the .357 mag,,, (Corbon 125 gr DPX - data and recommendation for this load courtesy of Stephen Camp)
-------1190 fps for the 9mm+P.(Remington 125 gr Golden Saber)

I exchanged a few emails and PM's with Stephen about the particular loading he tested and why he liked them. For those that don't know him, Steve was a retired LEO with a gift for writing and delivering facts - no doubt he came by that after having spent so much time documenting information that would be used in court.

Are the two equal?
No -and I don't claim them to be - but - for my purposes ---let's put it this way, I have two Hi Powers, I traded off my S&W M66 - and never looked back.

Quote:
A couple of points to ponder, first, if hot 9mm Parabellum was "as good" as the 125gr .357 Mag, why was the .357 SIG even created??
Why is there a ,45GAP? . It might just be that SIG wanted to stick their name on something...seriously.....what does the .357 SIG do that the 9mm Winchester Magnum didn't do?

Quote:
Few people realize how much the 9mm Parabellum has been enhanced since its origin. More development has gone into improving the round's performance in the last 40 years than in the previous 70!
Same can be said of .44spl, .45 acp, or - just about any hollow point.

I clearly remember the junk bullets back in the 1970's that I used to be saddled with. People take for granted what there is now. That's a much more recent development than most think it is.

Last edited by Hal; November 4, 2017 at 04:45 AM.
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Old November 4, 2017, 09:32 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by OldMarksman View Post
The comparison showed the breaking of large monolithic items--blocks, fruits and vegetables --requiring absolutely no accuracy, and at a very slow rate of fire.

In self defense, projectiles must (1) penetrate deeply enough to destroy small critical body elements and (2) actually hit one or more of those elements.

The latter is known colloquially as "shot placement", but in reality, because the critical targets are hidden and are moving fast, success is more serendipitous than a matter of skill or "marksmanship". And then there is the extremely short time available--several shots in one or two seconds.

That boils down to an imperative for a very high rate of controlled fire.

More "bang" just won't help.

There is an excellent, though lengthy, discussion of the topic in this book:

http://www.cap-press.com/books/isbn/...-Third-Edition
Thanks, Old Marksman, the book looks interesting and useful to read.

As far as I can tell, "imperative and high rate of fire was not part of the goal of the video, banging bricks was for a visual effect to make a point about the different power in the two calibers. Using the leather, ribs, fruit, etc... looked like a good way to easily give the viewer a chance to see if the chosen bullets performed the way they should in terms of expansion when shot through something resembling a living creature.

Keep in mind, many people in the "Gun culture" do not have your level of expertise or experiences and visual demonstrations like this, and introducing people to real examples of expansion rates and velocity of fired ammunition can only be a good thing.

I shoot at a range and do not currently hunt, so seeing expansion rates and getting a sense of different bullet types and caliber types is always welcome information for me.

Last edited by fostereast; November 4, 2017 at 10:24 AM.
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Old November 4, 2017, 09:54 AM   #57
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JMHO, The 9mm is a pinnacle of efficiency, that's what's kept it around
for over a hundred years. But loadings like +, +P, and +P+ are trying to wring
performance from the cartridge that's not there, to begin with, and the casings
and pistols simply weren't designed for. Some folks may insist they are valid,
but I'm not running ammo that hot thru my guns.

While .357 Mag and 9mm share a similar caliber niche, the .357 is simply more
powerful, and trying to force the 9mm to perform to .357 standards is expensive
and hard on the pistol. Personally, I prefer to embrace the advantage of the
9mm's .38 caliber size, and appreciate it's advantages, rather than borrow the trouble of +p ammo.
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Old November 4, 2017, 10:41 AM   #58
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Rangerrich99,

That was an entertainment video, not a tactically factual video.

If you know how human incapacitation occurs, you'd know that a standard capacity 9MM whips a 6-shot .357 Mag revolver every single time.

BTW, when I have and when I carry a .357 Mag revolver for bipedal self-defense, it's always loaded with the FBI load. Magnum loads in a revolver add no incapacitation benefit. They do create tactically detrimental consequences.
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Old November 4, 2017, 10:42 AM   #59
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The .357 Mag is the most overrated handgun cartridge for bipedal self-defense. It does prove the 10% tipping point.
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Old November 4, 2017, 10:57 AM   #60
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Magnum loads in a revolver add no incapacitation benefit.
I see this bovine feces parroted all over the internet, apparently these folks have never shot any living creatures with both.
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Old November 4, 2017, 11:39 AM   #61
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I bought into the ".357Mag snub = 9mm service auto" trope as a new shooter....as well as the "more rounds = better" trope. It led me to trade a great-condition 2.5" Security Six for a Ruger P95. And I have regretted that trade for years. I'm glad that video has taught me the truth.....though now I regret that trade even more.

I'm still a 9mm and .357Mag aficionado. But the capacity issue isn't as important now. Only accurate hits count.....and, just because you have lots of ammo doesn't mean you'll have time to use it.

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Old November 4, 2017, 11:39 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by mavracer View Post
I see this bovine feces parroted all over the internet, apparently these folks have never shot any living creatures with both.


I agree, and from what I see being an RO at a local range, “most” people are carrying single stack 9’s(shield/G43) these days.
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Old November 4, 2017, 11:54 AM   #63
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I see this bovine feces parroted all over the internet, apparently these folks have never shot any living creatures with both.
Post #45 addresses that comment very well indeed.
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Old November 4, 2017, 12:25 PM   #64
mavracer
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Post #45 addresses that comment very well indeed
No it really doesn't address it at all.
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Old November 4, 2017, 12:29 PM   #65
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Thanks, Old Marksman, the book looks interesting and useful to read.
Much of the book pertains specifically to issues involving the liability of police officers and their communities in lawsuits, specifically those that fall under 42 USC 1983, with a good discussion of the kinds of police-involved shootings that would not.

In the discussion, the authors discuss the unique duties of law enforcement officers, not relevant to civilians, and lawsuits associated with the Fourth Amendment rights of citizens, also not relevant.

But in discussing the realities of whether a police officer's actions were or were not Constitutionally appropriate, the authors discuss a number of subjects that can be very relevant to civilian self defense.

Among these are physiological and psychological reasons to stress, both during an encounter and in the recollection of same; recognition and assessment of immediate danger; wounding and incapacitation, and how public perceptions have been distorted by exposure to screen fiction; what constitutes adequate and appropriate training, and what does not--PLUS things that I have not yet read in the book.
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Old November 4, 2017, 01:00 PM   #66
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No it really doesn't address it at all.
Sure it does.

If a handgun bullet expands properly, penetrates adequately, and strikes the right place in a human body, there is no reason to believe that a bullet of the same size fired at a somewhat higher velocity into the same person in the same way will be more effective-- thus the comment, correct in that context, "magnum loads in a revolver add no incapacitation benefit".

But if one is using the handgun to take game or to defend against larger animals, the statement would not be true.

That is addressed in post #45: "Another thing, while the 9mm Parabellum is considered excellent for shooting people, its not well thought of for shooting anything else, large or small, and the .357 Magnum is well regarded in that respect".

The fact that someone may not have "shot any living creatures with both" does not change the argument or alter the underlying facts. Living creatures of different species react differently.

Nor would it be necessary to shoot different living creatures with both to learn something. A person who shoots a large bear with a 9mm and finds the penetration inaduequate has all he or she needs in the way of experience to conclude that a magnum would likely have been better. And an officer who shoots a person at a challenging angle that requires considerable penetration, and whose shots effect the necessary penetration under the circumstance with something other than a magnum, need not then shoot a person with a magnum to find it was not more effective.
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Old November 4, 2017, 02:07 PM   #67
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Time to settle this with facts.

Fact: 6 .357s will finish off at least a dozen bad guys.

Fact: 17 9 mm will barely finish off three bad guys.

End of story.
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Old November 4, 2017, 03:07 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
Time to settle this with facts.

Fact: 6 .357s will finish off at least a dozen bad guys.

Fact: 17 9 mm will barely finish off three bad guys.

End of story.
Thread win!
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Old November 4, 2017, 03:45 PM   #69
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But yes, you can theoretically stop 17 threats with 17 9mm and only 6 with the 357. But that isn't what the supposed debate and video demo is about.
You can do more than 6 with the .357, but ya gotta line 'em up.
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Old November 5, 2017, 07:44 AM   #70
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Semantics gentlemen

I believe what we have here is a difference in what we're comparing. Individual cartridge types vs defense systems. A 14 round 9mm autoloading pistol is a defense system. The .357 S&W magnum is a cartridge type.
Without a doubt, cartridge to cartridge comparison, shows the .357 to be in another hemisphere in power. That being said, a six shot wheel gun "system" is at a disadvantage compared to a 17 round semi auto in an extended exchange of fire.
Personally, I believe that a six shot .357 is more than sufficient for "personal defense". Law enforcement has more diverse situations to deal with, that may require more firepower.
FBI statistics show 2.5 rounds per personal altercation.
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Old November 5, 2017, 08:50 AM   #71
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If a handgun bullet expands properly, penetrates adequately, and strikes the right place in a human body, there is no reason to believe that a bullet of the same size fired at a somewhat higher velocity into the same person in the same way will be more effective-- thus the comment, correct in that context, "magnum loads in a revolver add no incapacitation benefit".

But if one is using the handgun to take game or to defend against larger animals, the statement would not be true.

That is addressed in post #45: "Another thing, while the 9mm Parabellum is considered excellent for shooting people, its not well thought of for shooting anything else, large or small, and the .357 Magnum is well regarded in that respect".

The fact that someone may not have "shot any living creatures with both" does not change the argument or alter the underlying facts. Living creatures of different species react differently.

Nor would it be necessary to shoot different living creatures with both to learn something. A person who shoots a large bear with a 9mm and finds the penetration inaduequate has all he or she needs in the way of experience to conclude that a magnum would likely have been better. And an officer who shoots a person at a challenging angle that requires considerable penetration, and whose shots effect the necessary penetration under the circumstance with something other than a magnum, need not then shoot a person with a magnum to find it was not more effective.
There is so much wrong in that post I don't even know where to start.

You are correct with the last statement and you prove it out. A person doesn't have to have any actual knowledge about a subject to draw a conclusion. However someone who's without the knowledge and facts will usually draw an incorrect conclusion.
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Old November 5, 2017, 09:03 AM   #72
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There is so much wrong in that post I don't even know where to start.
Try.

Do you believe that, if a bullet penetrated adequately against any target, that the same bullet fired on the same path at a higher velocity would be more effective, within handgun velocity ranges? If so, why?

Do you really believe that handguns that are adequate of stopping humans would necessarily be adequate for shooing large game, or that it is necessary to use a handgun that is well suited for shooting large game for self defense against humans? If so, why?

Do you not believe that living creatures of different species do not reacts differently to bullet wounds (i.e., that the same terminal ballistics performance is repaired for different species? If so, why?
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Old November 5, 2017, 09:20 AM   #73
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Be it a 9mm, a .357, or even a measly .22 short rimfire round, I don't desire to be struck with ANY of them... Lol!
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Old November 5, 2017, 09:27 AM   #74
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And then there is the .38 Super.
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Old November 5, 2017, 09:33 AM   #75
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Do you believe that, if a bullet penetrated adequately against any target, that the same bullet fired on the same path at a higher velocity would be more effective, within handgun velocity ranges? If so, why?
Absolutely why because I've seen with my own eyes significant damage from temporary wound cavity (or whatever you feel the need to call it) at handgun velocity.
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