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Old May 30, 2016, 03:51 PM   #26
Pond, James Pond
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That always struck me as odd, because the President was on Telemundo placating journalists about the issue the prior January. Are we to believe at no point that the President called the AG and said, "hey, figure out what's going on here?"
You know a policeman is set to do their job when they don a kevlar vest.

And you know a politician is set to theirs when they don kelvar underwear.

CYA at its finest.
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Old May 30, 2016, 04:18 PM   #27
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Operation Fast and Furious was a very small part of a huge multi agency investigation into dope being transported into the US of A. We know nothing about the other aspects of the overall operation or of correspondence between agencies.

Yep, there is little doubt that Fast and Furious went deep into the Obama administration. There is no doubt that some political appointees lied.

Rather than conduct a bi-partisan investigation and letting chips fall where they may; Issa turned the investigation into an election year witch hunt.

William Newell was the BATFE SAC in Phoenix. Newell is your quintessential Mickey Mouse tyrant. He railroaded a long time BATFE agent, falsely accusing him of burning his own house down.

William Newell ran both Wide Receiver and Fast and Furious. Agent Newell admitted discussing Fast and Furious with his bud in white house national security; Director for North America, one Kevin O'Reilly. Issa asked the white house to make Kevin O'Reilly available for questioning. Obama refused and Issa dropped the matter.

Newell has been promoted into the bowels of BATFE headquarters.

The investigation into Fast and Furious was botched big time. There will never, ever be any justice.

Watch BATFE Agent William Newell waffle and squirm:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANSbwmYlYI

Last edited by thallub; May 30, 2016 at 06:14 PM.
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Old May 30, 2016, 06:50 PM   #28
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The point of F+F ? Those guns needed to be traceable to a USA firearm dealer.
Those guns needed to slaughter people in Mexico(collateral damage)
Those guns needed to create an international incident."American gun dealers source of weapons slaughtering innocent Mexican people"
(Zoom in camera for tears and emotion)
The international outrage was to be the crisis to attack and destroy the 2nd Amendment.
Starting with William Bennett in 1989, anti-Second Amendment activists have propagated the myth that curtailing U.S. gun rights would disarm Mexican criminals.
In fact, most of the drug cartels' weapons might have been made in the U.S., but they were originally provided to Latin American regimes by our government, and then smuggled NORTH into Mexico.

Courtesy of Wikileaks -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...S-weapons.html
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Old May 31, 2016, 10:23 AM   #29
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Many weapons were also provided directly TO the Mexican government, then purchased by the cartels directly from the soldiers they were issued to. Others simply happened to be AWOL the night the cartel emptied the local armory.
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Old May 31, 2016, 10:58 AM   #30
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If they truly wanted justice, Issa and Grassley should have squeezed the SAC's at the Phoenix field division. The agents who planned and executed the operation (and for which there was plenty of proof) should have been prosecuted. That didn't happen.
Well, they tried that with the IRS a few years later and went equally nowhere. I'm not saying that it wouldn't have been a good idea (I would have preferred a different tack), but I don't think anything would have stuck on St. Obama's administration during the first couple years. I mean he was the flipping Nobel Peace Prize winner for gosh sake. "Move on! Nothing to see here!"
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Old May 31, 2016, 05:35 PM   #31
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OCDETF ops are to law enforcement what Michael Bay $300 million summer blockbusters are to the movie studios. They are watched very closely, and it's inconceivable that Holder wasn't receiving weekly briefings on F&F.
And since this directly involved the affairs of a foreign government (Mexico's, not the Cartels', though I repeat myself) it is unlikely other relevant departments (i.e. State) weren't consulted or interested. I only say this due to the circumstantial, but oddly long, history of alleged smuggling operations linked with Clinton administrations. My belief is F&F didn't point to "the president," but rather, "the next president."

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If they truly wanted justice, Issa and Grassley should have squeezed the SAC's at the Phoenix field division.
Seeing as Issa didn't even do a half decent job of making political hay out of the affair (the court-ordered document dump from Hillary's server has been far, far, far more destructive), I think the more likely truth of the matter is that he & congress were made acutely aware, early on, that no one would be prosecuted on these matters for the duration of this administration, nor would they be getting any cooperation with their inquiries. All they would be able to do is draft indictments based on rudimentary tidbits of evidence that stone-walling departments couldn't keep hidden (and keep hidden/destroy without repercussions), which would be ignored and decried as even more 'political hackery' than the inquisitions. The contempt charge of Holder was literally about the most they could do without relying upon cooperation from the Justice Department, which would obviously not be forthcoming. All congress itself can do, let alone a subcommittee, is subpoena people to appear, and hopefully embarrass their bosses enough with revelations that Justice is directed to prosecute & staunch the bleeding via cauterization.

Any claim Issa was throwing the match also ignores the very influential role Elijah Cummings, of various congressional scandals/corruption fame, played in disrupting & making a mockery of the whole process, cheer-leading the meme of it being 'nothing but a witch hunt' while sabotaging every attempt to gather evidence or testimony from the very beginning. Google the man's name and Fast & Furious and it's page after page of daily denouncements to news media. Yup, there was certainly not one single aspect of this affair worthy of investigation by Congress, alright; they should've just moved on after Terry was killed (or assassinated for trying to blow open this story in the first place, as evidence is increasingly suggesting)

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Many weapons were also provided directly TO the Mexican government, then purchased by the cartels directly from the soldiers they were issued to. Others simply happened to be AWOL the night the cartel emptied the local armory.
IIRC, that massacre of some forty student demonstrators by 'cartel members' at the direction of the local mayor, was supposedly committed with new HK G36 rifles (any student of the gun would know those deliveries came with very strict rules and book keeping of who ends up with the guns & how they are used, per German export regs). That, and other similar incidents have led the German government to severely curtail HK's access to that market (I forget if it's still shut down at this time)
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Old June 1, 2016, 08:29 PM   #32
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Tom Servo said:
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It's just too late.

If they truly wanted justice, Issa and Grassley should have squeezed the SAC's at the Phoenix field division. The agents who planned and executed the operation (and for which there was plenty of proof) should have been prosecuted. That didn't happen.

If they wanted the truth, they might have offered immunity deals or reduced sentences for those who had something to reveal. That didn't happen. . . .
It seems we've plowed this ground before but Grassley and Issa (and Congress in general) have no authority to prosecute. That is strictly an executive branch responsibility. Immunity would be limited only to not using the SAC's testimony in Congress in any criminal investigation. Don't you think the administration would have prosecuted these guys if they had talked, even under threat of contempt (which the executive branch enforces)? The ONLY card they had to play was in the court of public opinion.
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Old June 8, 2017, 07:17 AM   #33
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Under new management, DOJ belatedly admits 64,000 pages of documents it claims were privileged are not actually privileged and releases them.
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/...peded-fast-and

The main revelation is that senior officials at DOJ already knew they had lost a bunch of guns before Terry was even murdered.
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Old June 8, 2017, 04:26 PM   #34
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Obama administration officials lied. :yawn:

Nothing to see here, move along ... move along.
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Old June 8, 2017, 07:13 PM   #35
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You are probably right. I'm not getting too excited.
It is on the floor of the House Oversight Committee,and Jason Chaffetz
is addressing it.

https://youtu.be/0bw-ZWGC_FA

https://youtu.be/AVOLhRB0-2M

https://youtu.be/0URYAfL6fqk

Will it amount to anything? I'm not holding my breath.But its something.

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Old June 8, 2017, 07:16 PM   #36
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What would be appropriate, IMHO, would be to put Dodson (the whistleblower) in charge of the BATFE for awhile.
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Old June 8, 2017, 07:42 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts View Post
Under new management, DOJ belatedly admits 64,000 pages of documents it claims were privileged are not actually privileged and releases them.
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/...peded-fast-and

The main revelation is that senior officials at DOJ already knew they had lost a bunch of guns before Terry was even murdered.
Any chance the release had something to do with flying under the news around the Comey testimony?
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Old June 9, 2017, 10:49 AM   #38
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Very few folks really care about what happened in Operation Fast and Furious. Issa ran a political charade, making excuses for and lying about another gun running operation ran by a president of his own party. At no time did Issa and his inquisitors recommend an overhaul of the BATFE.

Yep, the murder of Brian Terry was a travesty. But the murder of Brian Terry pales in comparison with the murders of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of Mexican nationals with Fast an Furious guns. No one talks about the murders of those Mexican citizens because very few US citizens really care.

Fast and Furious is a dead issue. Nothing will happen to the BATFE agents who designed and ran the operation or their political appointee handlers.

The current US Justice Dep't. is up to it's butt in alligators defending itself. They don't have time for anything else.

Last edited by thallub; June 9, 2017 at 12:37 PM.
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Old June 9, 2017, 09:50 PM   #39
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by thallub
Issa ran a political charade, making excuses for and lying about another gun running operation ran by a president of his own party. At no time did Issa and his inquisitors recommend an overhaul of the BATFE.
Assuming you are referring to Operation Wide Receiver, that statement is hogwash and you should be ashamed for misrepresenting it in that fashion. If you aren't referring to that, than I should be ashamed for not knowing what you are referring to.

Last edited by Spats McGee; June 10, 2017 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Languate filter tripped
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Old June 10, 2017, 05:43 AM   #40
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Assuming you are referring to Operation Wide Receiver, that statement is hogwash and you should be ashamed for misrepresenting it in that fashion. If you aren't referring to that, than I should be ashamed for not knowing what you are referring to.
Go ahead and censor whatever you want to censor. It matters not to me. As an instructor i had Issa as a student in EOD school. i don't remember him. My good friend was the NCOIC of an EOD unit where Issa was a member. Jay Bergey says Issa stole his car. Issa has been accused of other car thefts. i believe that Issa has serious character issues.


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"That kid stole my car out of the parking lot and took it to Cleveland, and I knew he did it,” said retired 1st Sgt. Jay Bergey, who served with Issa in 1971 on the 145th Ordnance Detail, an Army bomb squad stationed near Pittsburgh.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/not-s...t-accusations/

Last edited by Spats McGee; June 10, 2017 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Quoted post that tripped language filter
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Old June 10, 2017, 06:33 AM   #41
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Let's rein it in and remain civil. Issa's personality and past are not issues germane to this thread.
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Old June 10, 2017, 08:13 AM   #42
Bartholomew Roberts
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You seem to be suggesting that a bipartisan investigation could be had in that situation. I think that expecting Elijah Cummings to hold Eric Holder accountable is likely to result in disappointment, whatever your estimation of Issa might be.
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Old June 10, 2017, 10:21 AM   #43
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You seem to be suggesting that a bipartisan investigation could be had in that situation.
Sorry if I gave that impression.

This Fast And Furious debacle cried out for the appointment of a special prosecutor. The running of guns into Mexico was a blatant violation of federal law and contrary to everything this country stands for. For sure an special prosecutor would have gone after Newell and his bunch.

There are still many unanswered questions. Was a third gun, an SKS, found at the Brian Terry murder scene? The FBI says no but i'm not so sure.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...er-agents.html

Last edited by thallub; June 10, 2017 at 10:54 AM.
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Old June 10, 2017, 01:25 PM   #44
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I have not heard anything about it on the news, and if we do I think it will be only passing.. Trump keeps them busy most days, Probably a lot of wrong doing not getting reported cause they're so focused on him.

This whole Russia thing I almost dont care at this point.
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Old June 10, 2017, 03:00 PM   #45
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Three things really bug me about the outcome of the US House investigation of Fast And Furious:

1. Some career BATFE agents got away with aiding and abetting murder:

2. Some high ranking political appointees deliberately hindered the inquiry and most likely lied.

3. No reform of the BATFE took place. This one bugs me the most.

Since 1979 i have had an abiding distain of the BATFE (then the ATF). A scurrilous ATF SAC got incensed because i refused to lie to a federal judge. His office, acting on the word of a felon snitch who claimed the man had an unregistered machine gun, raided the home of a well known doctor and confiscated 200 guns and huge quantities of ammunition.

There was no unregistered machine gun and the federal judge ordered the guns and ammunition returned. The SAC claimed his office had turned over several hundred thousand rounds of ammunition to my Army EOD unit for destruction. That was a bald faced lie.

One nice morning the SAC came into my office with an Army CID agent i had known for many years. The SAC ordered the agent to "read him his rights". The response: "If you want the M/Sgt. read his rights then do it yourself".

There was an ATF internal investigation. The internal investigator was a pretty decent guy. i initially broke bad, suggesting the SAC and his underlings had stolen the ammunition. His response: "Some guns are unaccounted for too". Later found out the judge held ATF folks in contempt of court and jailed same.

Last edited by thallub; June 10, 2017 at 09:39 PM.
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Old June 10, 2017, 04:13 PM   #46
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Regarding Fast and Furious, Deep State abuse can only happen with complicit media -- in particular, The Associated Press.

Most of the 1,000 daily newspapers get their news from the AP. Most of the time, editors do not edit AP copy. They should. Too often it has a distinct point of view and its opinions are built into adjectives and verbs selected and in the clauses they choose to insert.

Most of the articles start with a paragraph used to punch up the story. Look there for what AP wants to push.

They will also pollinate their views across stories -- you will find Flynn brought up in unrelated stories.

With Fast and Furious, AP declined to cover the 300 page report just released because they call it “Old News” -- that’s the tried and true political gambit. Stall long enough that AP considers it Old News.

You have to be your own expert -- discarding media right and left when they blow smoke. They do it all the time.
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Old June 10, 2017, 05:05 PM   #47
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I think it is instructive that after the results from Wide Receiver, they decided to just do away with the bothersome tracking of weapons that had been unsuccessful in Wide Receiver and go bigger with the same guy in charge - and reporting to Joe Biden's lead counsel on the 1994 AWB no less.

For any of the issues thallub raised to be addressed, you have to acknowledge some really inconvenient facts that point fairly high up. Poor Lanny Breuer was forced into a private practice partnership with a 7-figure income in an attempt to throw someone under the bus. That's the head of the Criminal Division of the DOJ. Not a small scalp, though to us plebes I'm sure the "punishment" seems inadequate. But the point remains that you can't pull at that thread and then stop once you've hit on the points thallub raised - the inquiry would inevitably go higher and so everyone got a pass.
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Old June 10, 2017, 05:45 PM   #48
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the inquiry would inevitably go higher and so everyone got a pass.
That's the thing. F&F was an Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force operation. Those involve cross-agency cooperation and there's a potentially dangerous amount of leeway given. They're expensive, judges are tasked with rubber-stamping warrants, and there's great potential for things to go wrong. The DOJ only has a couple of these running at a time. The Attorney General would have received weekly briefings on F&F.

Furthermore, there's the troubling fact that President Obama commented on the operation on Mexican television four months before Holder said he knew about it. Even if we accept the ignorance defense at face value (which would mean Holder was paying no attention to what was going on in his department), it doesn't line up with their refusal to turn over subpoenaed emails.

Nor does it explain why the President invoked executive privilege at the last minute, or why it was used with such a broad brush. I doubt the President was involved, but everything points to a really botched attempt at a cover-up to save face.
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Old June 10, 2017, 08:15 PM   #49
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The frustrating thing with these political scandals (and it applies to both sides) is that while there is clear implication that high officials knowingly and willingly broke multiple laws, they are too often able to stall, stonewall, obfuscate, and drag out investigations until they are no longer in office, at which time, virtually all impetus to prosecute them ceases to exist.

It seems to be a game to them, and the usual loser is the US public.
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Old June 10, 2017, 09:32 PM   #50
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the inquiry would inevitably go higher and so everyone got a pass.
That sums up the situation really well.

Newell got bumped up front. The political appointees at Justice got a pass. Everyone is happy. Too bad all those innocent folks were murdered with Fast and Furious guns.

For those who are interested in the shenanigans at the BATFE:

http://cleanupatf.org/forums/index.p...operation-f-f/
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