How to get a very fine powder?

ymg200 · February 12, 2016, 09:39 PM

I am not doing reloading and I don't shoot black powder guns, so I don't have much experience with powders.
I need a very fine powder to make model rocket igniters. I am following instructions in this page:
http://www.jacobsrocketry.com/aer/ho...d_igniters.htm
These instructions say that commercial powder is crushed easily by mortar and pestle, but I can't crush the powder that I got from ammo cartridges that I had. I got different grain shapes - cylindrical grain from a rifle cartridge and round flakes from a shot shell and from a pistol round. However, I wasn't able to crush any of these. Cylindrical grain gets squashed into flat, but it doesn't crush. Same result with round flakes.
I need a really fine powder to suspend it in the lacquer as per instructions above.
Making my own powder is not an option because I need a really small amount for igniters, so I want to find a commercial powder that can be crushed.
Thanks all for help.

hartcreek · February 12, 2016, 09:42 PM

I would think that FFFF black powder is what you would want as it is used to priming the flash pan of a flintlock. Another option would be flash powder if you can find it......it used to be used in the motion picture industry and for very old cameras.

BillM · February 12, 2016, 09:54 PM

The powder referenced in the article is BLACK powder--a mix of
Potassium Nitrate, Sulfur and Charcoal. You will not find it in
any modern ammunition. If there is a muzzleloader supply store
in your area they should have some. The finest you might find is
FFFFg.

If you locate some black powder, grind it in small quantities, and
have the tightly closed can of powder far away from the grinding
operation.

The powder in modern ammunition is SMOKELESS powder. It is not
the same as what the article is calling for.

44 Dave · February 12, 2016, 10:22 PM

I got fed up with battery igniters and went to the fire works store and bought fuse, the m80 style.

ymg200 · February 13, 2016, 12:23 AM

Thanks all!
I did not realize that smokeless powder from modern ammo is that much different from black powder. The link that I referenced also shows the can of 4F Goex black powder, just like it was mentioned here.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · February 13, 2016, 02:09 PM

The difference between smokeless and black. Smokeless is ruled a propellant by Law. Black is ruled a Explosive by Law.

Jim Watson · February 13, 2016, 06:43 PM

FFFFg is the finest common black powder.
The finest grind black powder on the market is Swiss Null B, probably about 7Fg equivalent.
See if you can connect with a flintlock shooter who is going to order a good supply and get a can of Null B.

http://mainepowderhouse.com/swiss-bl...-null-b-25lbs/

maillemaker · February 15, 2016, 09:46 AM

Quote:

I did not realize that smokeless powder from modern ammo is that much different from black powder.

Smokeless powder is tremendously different from black powder.

If you use smokeless powder in a black powder firearm you will turn it into a bomb.

Google "smokeless powder used in blackpowder guns" and see the results.

Steve

ymg200 · February 15, 2016, 01:19 PM

Thanks all for your input. I greatly appreciate the knowledge that I got here.

alex0535 · February 15, 2016, 01:53 PM

The tool you need is a ball mill. Learn what your doing so the container filled with fine gunpowder and ball bearings exploding from static discharge wont be the last thing you see.

Hawg · February 15, 2016, 02:06 PM

Quote:

The tool you need is a ball mill. Learn what your doing so the container filled with fine gunpowder and ball bearings exploding from static discharge wont be the last thing you see.

BP won't explode from static discharge and you don't use steel ball bearings. You use brass or lead balls because they won't spark.

maillemaker · February 16, 2016, 10:20 AM

Quote:

BP won't explode from static discharge and you don't use steel ball bearings. You use brass or lead balls because they won't spark.

This! Black Powder, particularly modern graphite glazed BP, is so electrically conductive that electricity passes over the outside of the grains with virtually no resistance, so there is very little heating.

This makes it very difficult to set off BP with a static discharge spark. There's a video on YouTube of a fellow using a taser to try and set it off - it won't.

He basically set out to make an electrically-ignited BP gun. It turns out it is quite difficult - you need a much more powerful spark over a much longer duration of time than your typical static discharge.

Also like Hawg said, you brass or lead balls, not steel, (nor glass, if you are thinking marbles).

Also you should only mill small quantities and your mill should be located outdoors away from stuff.

Steve

B.L.E. · February 18, 2016, 07:30 AM

For the extremely minute amount of powder needed for model rocket igniters, just use a mortar and pestle and make it as you need it. You can start with any black powder granulation.
I have seen someone make priming powder by putting a small amount of FFg on a smooth surface and then using a brass powder measure like a rolling pin to crush the grains into a fine powder.
If you wear leather gauntlets while doing this, the consequences of an accidental ignition will be mostly a room full of smoke, as long as you are only pulverizing a half teaspoon at a time.
If you don't wear the leather gloves, an unintended ignition will include the odor of the hair burned off your knuckles.

maillemaker · February 18, 2016, 04:41 PM

Steve

Sure Shot Mc Gee · February 20, 2016, 07:44 PM

Have 2-3 F Black Powder available and no 4-FFFFG for your rifles Flash Pan.
Try a ceramic burr coffee grinder and grind those larger grain sizes into a smaller grain so's to fire up you're Flint locks Pan. Ideal tool (link) every Rock Lock shooter should have. No need to pay a additional 22.00 $$ for a can of 4-FFFFG to use it sparely over the next 20-40 years. Make your own fresh Flash Pan powder before going shooting. Daily weekly monthly when ever.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U9SBYB2?psc=1

44 Dave · February 20, 2016, 11:28 PM

I tried grinding a small amount of FFF for priming, but it seemed to get too fine with no tooth for the spark to catch.
What I do lately is put a small amount of powder, say 100 grains, in an old aluminum screw-top film container with a lead ball and shake it for a while till it looks FFFF. There are quite a few primes in that amount of powder.

Bill DeShivs · February 21, 2016, 01:21 AM

Grinding and compressing smokeless powder can cause an explosion. Don't do it!

Use only black powder. BP should be available at most sporting goods stores. Don't let them sell you Pyrodex. You want real black powder. You can safely grind small amounts with a ceramic mortar and pestle. Forget ball mills and all that stuff.

February 12, 2016, 09:39 PM	#1
ymg200 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2013 Posts: 5	How to get a very fine powder? I am not doing reloading and I don't shoot black powder guns, so I don't have much experience with powders. I need a very fine powder to make model rocket igniters. I am following instructions in this page: http://www.jacobsrocketry.com/aer/ho...d_igniters.htm These instructions say that commercial powder is crushed easily by mortar and pestle, but I can't crush the powder that I got from ammo cartridges that I had. I got different grain shapes - cylindrical grain from a rifle cartridge and round flakes from a shot shell and from a pistol round. However, I wasn't able to crush any of these. Cylindrical grain gets squashed into flat, but it doesn't crush. Same result with round flakes. I need a really fine powder to suspend it in the lacquer as per instructions above. Making my own powder is not an option because I need a really small amount for igniters, so I want to find a commercial powder that can be crushed. Thanks all for help.

February 15, 2016, 01:53 PM	#10
alex0535 Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 908	The tool you need is a ball mill. Learn what your doing so the container filled with fine gunpowder and ball bearings exploding from static discharge wont be the last thing you see. Last edited by alex0535; February 15, 2016 at 01:59 PM.

February 18, 2016, 07:30 AM	#13
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	For the extremely minute amount of powder needed for model rocket igniters, just use a mortar and pestle and make it as you need it. You can start with any black powder granulation. I have seen someone make priming powder by putting a small amount of FFg on a smooth surface and then using a brass powder measure like a rolling pin to crush the grains into a fine powder. If you wear leather gauntlets while doing this, the consequences of an accidental ignition will be mostly a room full of smoke, as long as you are only pulverizing a half teaspoon at a time. If you don't wear the leather gloves, an unintended ignition will include the odor of the hair burned off your knuckles. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

February 21, 2016, 01:21 AM	#17
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Grinding and compressing smokeless powder can cause an explosion. Don't do it! Use only black powder. BP should be available at most sporting goods stores. Don't let them sell you Pyrodex. You want real black powder. You can safely grind small amounts with a ceramic mortar and pestle. Forget ball mills and all that stuff. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

February 12, 2016, 09:42 PM	#2
hartcreek Junior member Join Date: April 22, 2014 Location: Washington Posts: 1,549	I would think that FFFF black powder is what you would want as it is used to priming the flash pan of a flintlock. Another option would be flash powder if you can find it......it used to be used in the motion picture industry and for very old cameras.

February 12, 2016, 09:54 PM	#3
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	The powder referenced in the article is BLACK powder--a mix of Potassium Nitrate, Sulfur and Charcoal. You will not find it in any modern ammunition. If there is a muzzleloader supply store in your area they should have some. The finest you might find is FFFFg. If you locate some black powder, grind it in small quantities, and have the tightly closed can of powder far away from the grinding operation. The powder in modern ammunition is SMOKELESS powder. It is not the same as what the article is calling for.

February 12, 2016, 10:22 PM	#4
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	I got fed up with battery igniters and went to the fire works store and bought fuse, the m80 style.

February 13, 2016, 12:23 AM	#5
ymg200 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2013 Posts: 5	Thanks all! I did not realize that smokeless powder from modern ammo is that much different from black powder. The link that I referenced also shows the can of 4F Goex black powder, just like it was mentioned here.

February 13, 2016, 02:09 PM	#6
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	The difference between smokeless and black. Smokeless is ruled a propellant by Law. Black is ruled a Explosive by Law.

February 13, 2016, 06:43 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	FFFFg is the finest common black powder. The finest grind black powder on the market is Swiss Null B, probably about 7Fg equivalent. See if you can connect with a flintlock shooter who is going to order a good supply and get a can of Null B. http://mainepowderhouse.com/swiss-bl...-null-b-25lbs/

February 15, 2016, 01:19 PM	#9
ymg200 Junior Member Join Date: February 4, 2013 Posts: 5	Thanks all for your input. I greatly appreciate the knowledge that I got here.

February 18, 2016, 04:41 PM	#14
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Steve

February 20, 2016, 07:44 PM	#15
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Have 2-3 F Black Powder available and no 4-FFFFG for your rifles Flash Pan. Try a ceramic burr coffee grinder and grind those larger grain sizes into a smaller grain so's to fire up you're Flint locks Pan. Ideal tool (link) every Rock Lock shooter should have. No need to pay a additional 22.00 $$ for a can of 4-FFFFG to use it sparely over the next 20-40 years. Make your own fresh Flash Pan powder before going shooting. Daily weekly monthly when ever. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00U9SBYB2?psc=1

February 20, 2016, 11:28 PM	#16
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	I tried grinding a small amount of FFF for priming, but it seemed to get too fine with no tooth for the spark to catch. What I do lately is put a small amount of powder, say 100 grains, in an old aluminum screw-top film container with a lead ball and shake it for a while till it looks FFFF. There are quite a few primes in that amount of powder.