September 12, 2013, 05:33 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
|
1911 for home defense
I don't know if there is a question here but just wondering about your thoughts.
To start off with, I own 40 plus western style and Civil War era revolvers. I have about a thousand rounds of handloaded BPCR ammunition at any given time. Also six rifles from 1880 to 1900. Why in the name of common sense would I go to a gunshow and buy a RIA 1911 GI? One reason and one reason only....Nostalgia.... It is what I shot in the NAV and those were the best years of my life. I did not buy it for home defense. I do not view my revolvers as home defense either. If I tried to fend off an intruder I would most likely: 1. Accidently shoot myself (humor intended) 2. Put a bunch of holes in my walls and just scare off the guy (Not a bad thing) 3. Shoot what turns out to be an unarmed kid But Lets say I wanted to use the 1911 for home defense. The Gunners Mates always said that keeping rounds in the clip weakens the spring. Do I buy two additional clips and rotate the rounds every week? Just wondering.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. |
September 12, 2013, 05:53 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 4, 2012
Posts: 1,273
|
I have seen the spring wars go back and forth, and still don't understand if the fear of leaving springs loaded is hype or genuine. I don't know that I ever will.
That said, most of the reccomendations from those who espouse the "weakened spring" theory suggest downloading your mags for long term storage. 6 rounds (in an 8 round mag) in a 1911 plus one in the chamber beats most revolvers of similar caliber. Downloading every week might be over doing it, on the cautious side, but it might not. Like I said, I don't know. Personally, I keep a shotgun as my go-to gun for home defense. The handgun may be the first thing I grab, but reaching my shotgun may be my top priority in assuming a safe position in my home. |
September 12, 2013, 05:57 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 26, 2005
Location: The Bluegrass
Posts: 9,142
|
There's some debate on that issue. The bottom line is that leaving a magazine loaded will slightly degrade the strength of the mag spring but not nearly as much as actually using the mag. There are many stories of 1911 magazines functioning after years, even decades, of sitting in a box or drawer loaded. It's the spring working which wears it fastest. Rotating the mags in your scenario will likely weaken the springs faster because you are working the springs each time you load and unload the mags. If you're going to do this, I would recommend getting either a good seven round magazine or an extended (slightly) length mag with eight round capacity. The flush fit 8 round mag springs tend to be weaker and/or weaken more quickly than the others.
However, I would suggest you occasionally take your pistol out and shoot it, even if it's just a mag full. That way you get a little practice in and can change mags at that point. BTW, it is always a good idea to have some extra mags. Added: I am not a defense "guru," so take this next part with that in mind. I will often leave a mag fully loaded in a 1911 and not shoot that particular gun for a couple of months or more. I have other handguns, including other 1911s that I might be shooting. I have never experienced problems with the mag springs when I then go out and shoot the stored pistol. I don't use the eight round mags for a full size 1911 intended for defense, only seven rounds. |
September 12, 2013, 06:20 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
|
Jim and Kentucky...
As a matter of habit, I will load the magazine with five, no more, no less and I will likely not keep on in the chamber. Not disputing your advice in any way and no disrespect intended.
I will shoot it relatively often, hoping to go through about hundred rounds a month. I am going to load my own rounds and have had some great advice over on the Semi Auto and Handloaders forums about bullets and load. I'll start with 200 gr Round nose (which I will caste from wheel weights at about BHN14) and Bullseye. The advice not to down load it is a revelation. I need to get a coupla more clips and will likely use those clips enough that the springs will wear in from use and (as you say) not from having a loaded clip all the time. Thanks greatly for the quick wink back.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. |
September 12, 2013, 07:58 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,568
|
Doc, . . .
Just a small word of caution using Bullseye powder. You will be using a very small amount of this powder, a very fast burning powder. Secondly, . . . make sure you stay within the ranges given in your reloading manual. Going below or above the recommendations of the book is a serious breach of safety. Set up your reloading process so that you totally minimize the opportunity to double charge your cases. Doing that with Bullseye is a recipe for serious disaster. OR: Pick another powder, . . . one that will significantly be more bulk in the case. This gives you a better shot at visuually seeing and recognizing a double charged case. May God bless, Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran! |
September 12, 2013, 08:20 AM | #6 |
Junior member
Join Date: August 7, 2013
Posts: 198
|
If you're only planning on keeping five rounds in the mag, in Condition 3, I'd just keep a revolver handy for HD instead of the 1911. It brings nothing to the table for you.
|
September 12, 2013, 08:44 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
|
Dwight and Revoltella
D55,
Thanks for the cautionary advice. I will heed it carefully. Revoltella, Only problem with my revolvers is that they are all single action revolvers. I understand that I have to rack the slide for the first shot. But trying to cock a revolver for every shot might create a minor disadvantage. I must hasten to add that it is very unlikely I will ever need to protect myself from a home invader. For this reason every consideration is worth reviewing. I do thank you for your advice and clearly acknowledge that it comes from far better experience than mine.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. |
September 12, 2013, 10:59 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 11, 2006
Posts: 2,519
|
Bought first house in 1979,..
located my M39-2 with three mags loaded.
They stayed that way till 2005, when they were fired at the range. NO stuttering. etc. no reloaded and back on HD status. Quality mags will noty have a problem, sub-standard will. |
September 12, 2013, 11:09 AM | #9 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
September 12, 2013, 01:49 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
|
I would also recommend hollow points.
Everything I know about springs (not much) would suggest that springs are much more weakened by unloading and reloading than they are by keeping loaded. I think a 1911 is a fine home defense gun. Easy to operate, small, able to use it one handed, fairly large caliber. If you're going to go empty chamber, I do recommend leaving the safety off. I keep my handgun on double action with a full 16 + 1 magazine. No external safeties. Just pick up the gun and the first long trigger pull sets it off. With a 1911, I would recommend carrying with a round in the chamber and safety on, but that's all personal preference. Were there any questions you had that weren't answered? |
September 12, 2013, 02:08 PM | #11 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
warning shots, magazines, home defense....
1st off, Id sit down & really decide if you can use a firearm to defend yourself or if you honestly say you apply lethal force in a home defense event.
Guns are not toys, props, fashion accessories or political statements. They are lethal weapons that can injury or kill. Id also advise against "warning shots". Your actions in a lethal force event could be viewed as reckless or irresponsible if your "warning shot" seriously injured a by-stander or neighbor. A woman in the Jacksonville FL was convicted in a recent court case partly because she fired a "warning" to scare off her alleged attacker(her husband in a domestic dispute). The State Atty's Office put criminal charges on her. Id add that you can buy a 1911a1 .45acp & use it for personal defense if you feel qualified to carry it. For basic home protection & security, I'd look at a stainless .357magnum DA or DA only revolver like a GP100 4" barrel, a SP101, a 686+ 7rd, a Bulldog .44spl, or maybe a Ruger LCR. As for pistol magazines, you can fully load them. Just check them often & keep them clean. Clyde |
September 12, 2013, 02:16 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
|
Thanks guys....
Read this whole post before forming an opinion.
Let me start by saying that I disagree with this philosophy but I once had a guy tell me his first round for home defense was birdshot followed immediately by hollow points. He used a .357 revolver. As I say, the first round up was birdshot. The other five rounds were business rounds. I am thinking the philosophy is flawed. My thought is that if I shoot someone, I would rather not have them around to tell their side of the story, or to come around with a lawyer. I hope that does not sound too fool-hearty. I know nothing about home defense, as you can tell from my questions. My exposure to law enforcement is one course in Criminology which I teach for my university, and being arrested an awful lot for speeding in my younger days. Do I have this wrong?
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. |
September 12, 2013, 02:26 PM | #13 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Yes...
Yes...
You have it wrong. Please do not load or use any firearms for home defense/security. It sounds like you do not have a firm grasp on use of force standards or your area's gun laws. There are many, many people who are now in jail or prison because they thought they had a "good plan" or they did what was "right". CF |
September 12, 2013, 02:44 PM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: April 4, 2013
Posts: 26
|
In my humble opinion, i'd day to research your state's laws on use of deadly force ASAP. Technically it is allowed in my state (Texas) for situations where i personally would not be comfortable killing a man. There was a 911 recording released a few years back where a man shot and killed two BGs after they had broken into his neighbors house and were attempting to flee. He shot one guy in the back as he was running away and still was not arrested or charged. Personally I would find it difficult to live with myself after killing a man who was running away....
As to the magazine issue, it's been raging long before now and will probably continue after we're gone. All i know is having as many rounds available when i need them is more important than having to replace springs occasionally. Just check them periodically. |
September 12, 2013, 02:45 PM | #15 | ||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
Quote:
On the other points: I agree with the use of JHP bullets. There is no cogent reason to use hand loads or defense. For practice, yes. Dwight's recommendation to choose a propellant that cannot be double charged is such a good one that it bears repeating. No warning shots--period. Yes, you do want additional magazines, but not because of spring fatigue. I recommend keeping a round in the chamber and the safety on. You won't mind the occasional burble chambering a round at the range, but when your life is at stake and you are under stress, that's a poor time for a fumble. The 1911 is a perfectly good defensive pistol. It is reliable and safe, and the sound level of a .45 ACP is somewhat lower than that of many other rounds. For heaven's sake, become aware of the use of force laws as soon as possible, preferably before you ever face the need for firing a gun at anyone. By the way, the laws regarding the use of deadly force apply equally whether you are using a hand gun, a shot gun, a Louisville Slugger, a ball peen hammer, a steak knife, or a Cross Pen. Good luck! Last edited by OldMarksman; September 12, 2013 at 02:57 PM. |
||
September 12, 2013, 02:53 PM | #16 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
However, lest anyone draw the wrong conclusion, while there was an entry wound in the back of one of the dead men, a police officer who witnessed the shooting in the Joe Horn case testified that Horn fired in self defense after the fleeing burlgars turned to attack him. There is a time lag between a defender's decision to fire and the actual shot, and it is not uncommon for an attacker to turn quickly enough during that interval to suffer an entry wound in the back. That can prove problematical, but it does happen. |
|
September 12, 2013, 02:58 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
|
All good stuff guys
And taken in the right spirit.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. |
September 12, 2013, 03:42 PM | #18 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
|
Quote:
__________________
Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed. |
|
September 13, 2013, 10:48 AM | #19 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Good, general overviews of the topic can be found at UseofForce.us and in this booklet by Marty Hayes at the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network. But let's look now at a brief summary --
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
September 13, 2013, 12:50 PM | #20 |
Junior member
Join Date: January 1, 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,282
|
Doc, I think you stumbled into the church forum, awful lot of preachin goin on. If you fear for your life you should probably defend yourself and worry about the state laws later. Like you, I don't keep anything loaded in my house..hate to find a dead grandkid because I wasn't paying attention.
I've owned 10 or so 1911s, currently 3 and shoot cast round nose exclusively, well almost. When in Vietnam I noted the arms room had a foot locker full of loaded 1911 magazines, altho if you only want to load 5 just in case it's alright with me. Bullseye is a peachy powder, and I like titegroup too. geez, I'm startin to sound like a preacher myself. Finally I'd buy a box of hardball to keep in your magazine and I'd buy another magazine...and practice practice practice. |
September 13, 2013, 01:30 PM | #21 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
Consider also that the consequences of violence can be serious even when even when your use of lethal force is ultimately found to be justified. Consider --
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper Last edited by Frank Ettin; September 13, 2013 at 04:15 PM. |
|
September 13, 2013, 02:45 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
|
I asked for thoughts and I got them....and I am thankful for all of the answers.
I am somewhat familiar with the law in Virginia as regards self defense and protection of your life inside your home. I have also read a little bit of the case law. I know the things that must be part of a defense if I were to be charged with homicide
My question (3:16 yesterday) actually had more to do with the deliberate use of what might be considered a suboptimal round for the first shot in home defense. (Here I am referring to birdshot as suboptimal in comparison with hollow points) By the time one fires the first shot the consideration of the application of the law and its ramifications has already been decided (right or wrong) by the shooter. The law was not really part of the question. In fairness to the responders I sort of invited a measure of vitriol when I was using humor in the opening post of the thread. I didn't mean to imply that I take firearms, lethal force, death or serious injury lightly although I do acknowledge that a casual reader of the post might infer that I do.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. |
September 13, 2013, 03:26 PM | #23 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
|
|
September 13, 2013, 03:41 PM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
I think it comes from:
1. A natural aversion from killing someone. If we could have phasers on stun, would you rather use that? 2. The mantra of why didn't you shoot him or her in the knee, wound them, etc. Another suggestion to disable rather than use lethal force. I was taking my CHL test once and shot it well (yeah, right the TX test isn't William Tell level). Some guy tells me I should miss some shots because if I go to court, they would say I should have shot him in the knee. This guy knew because he was a 'sniper'.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
September 13, 2013, 04:19 PM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 13, 2005
Posts: 4,700
|
Yes, the "Spring Wars" go back and forth, only time we'll know for sure is through some sort of long term testing. IMHO buying quality magazines, making sure they work properly (Yes, I DID get some M1911 magazines of uncertain provenance and YES, several did NOT work properly.Found that out at the range,fortunately.) and perhaps looking at the springs, see if they seem robust enough,are bent properly,function with dummy rounds and with live ammo, you should be good to go. Jeff Cooper advocated "Cocked and Locked",make sure your safety engages and disengages smoothly and you are completely familiar with it.
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|