Can someone verify this Unique/.38 spc +P recipe?

[spacecoast]

The Alliant web site lists 5.2 grains of Unique under a 158 gr. LSWC as a viable +P load, but no other sources I've seen are up to that level (closest I've seen is 4.9 gr. at reloadammo.com). Other sources show
1) a max of 4.3 gr. (non +P)
2) a range of 4.1 to 4.5 gr.

Has someone tried the 5.2 gr. load? Any problems?

If someone wants to run it through Quickload, the bullet is a pretty typical 158 gr. LSWC, length of .710" with a crimp groove. COL will be 1.47". I'm using standard SPPs.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I do not have the manual imediately available, so I will check back in later once I can get to it. I know there are 38+p loads listed in the Lyman's Pistol, and Revolver 3rd edition that I have.

[spacecoast]

Thanks m&p, I appreciate it.

[m&p45acp10+1]

I was incorrect on a +p load listed in the book. However here is the load listed for .38 spcl. for 158 grain cast lead semi wadcutter.
CCI 500 SPP primer
Fereral case
Bullet Lyman #358665 (Gas checked Linotype)
Powder Unique
COL 1.445
Start load is 4.0 grains Est Velocity is 791 FPS 13,100 cup for listed pressure
Max Load is 4.5 Est vel. 871 FPS 16,000 CUP
The 4.9 by my math would seem to be a +p load.
(Note most of the data in the Lyman manuals tends to be a bit on the cool side for load info)
Hope this helps

[Crimp]

The Speer 13 manual also lists 5.2gr Unique as maximum for a 38 Special +P load, 158gr L-HP (or LSWCHP) at 1.455 COL.

My experience with that load is the following in a 1-7/8" bbl S&W 438 at 40°F:

HI:900 LO:781 AV:828 ES:119 SD:43 KE:241

As I recall, that was 10 shots over a Chrony Beta. It's a satisfactory load, but I was happier with the performance of Hodgdon's Universal with this particular bullet. With the same conditions, 5.0gr of Universal (Speer 13's max) gave me the following:

HI:906 LO:835 AV:868 ES:71 SD:29 KE:264

Either load comes close to the commercial Remington L-HP loads. I was loading Zero bullets which are harder than the Remingtons and didn't produce the same expansion as the Remingtons in my Snubbie. Neither do the Hornady LSWCHPs.

BTW, Lyman's Pistol and Revolver Handbook, Third edition, lists 5.4gr Unique for a 155gr gas check #358156 linotype bullet at 1.460 COL, and 5.3gr Unique for a 160gr #358311 bullet at 1.550 COL. Both of these are +P max loads.

[m&p45acp10+1]

Crimp you are correct on the 155 grain +p load in the Lyman manual. I had to relook for that one. I looked before I had my mornin fix of caffine.

[spacecoast]

Crimp -

Thanks very much, that's just what I needed. I'm a bit surprised you were able to get as much as 900 fps out of a snubbie, but that's great info. I am trying to come close to replicating the feel and recoil of the Remington LSWCHP +P FBI load, spending 10-12 cents a round rather than 60 cents or more, which is what the Remingtons are now running. I won't be shooting these practice rounds a lot out of any of my .38 specials, but want to have that option since those are what I carry. I have a lot of Unique to use up, but when I do that I may try the Universal.

[44 AMP]

Different lots of powder, different cases, primers, bullets, and most importantly different guns mean different max loads in andy given cartridge.

For instance, Hornady Handbook, Vol. II (1973) lists .38 Spl, 158gr lead RN,
Starting load is 4.3gr for 750fps
max load of Unique was 6.1gr for 1050fps, from a 6" S&W K-14.
.

That load might not be safe in your gun. Your gun is different. IT's a guideline, not a rule. Work up your loads in your guns, with your components.

[spacecoast]

Thanks 44 AMP, that is also reassuring that I'm not really that close to exceeding what my revolvers are capable of. They are all relatively modern S&W J and K frames in good repair, plus an L-frame 686. I also have a Model 14, but won't be using anything heavier than mild wadcutters in it.

[joneb]

I could never get Unique to throw consistently, so I never loaded +p with it. I use AA#5 and W-231 for +p 38spl with a 158gr lswc

[zippy13]

The current Alliant complimentary Reloaders Guide doesn't list a +P load with a 158-gr LSWC. It lists a load for .38 Spcl w/ Speer's 158-gr LSWC of 4.7-gr of Unique at 815 PSI. This is confusing since older Alliant (and Hercules) guides show a .38 +P Spcl load with a 158-gr LSWC over 4.5-gr of Unique at 950 FPS under 17,100 PSI.

As 44 AMP notes, different tests generate different data. As, with all reloading, approach maximum loads with caution.

[spacecoast]

I'm not sure if you're looking at printed material, but this is off the current Alliant web site:

[zippy13]

spacecoast,
I don't doubt that the data is available on-line. I saying, going by previous printed Hercules/Alliant loads, there is some confusion/contradiction:
Fed 100 primer, 5.6" barrel, generic 158-gr LSWC, 4.5 gr of Unique at 950 FPS, (printed data), and
CCI 500 primer, 6" barrel, Speer 158-gr LSWC, 5.2 gr of Unique at 919 FPS, (web data) seem enough different that I'd contact Alliant for conformation. As I mentioned before, different tests may have different results; but, is it reasonable to see this much difference? I wouldn't think a slightly longer barrel, 15% more powder and a primer change should reduce the velocity by 3%!

[44 AMP]

Different components and a different gun can, and do indeed change the results. And not nearly always in the direction or amount expected.

Sometimes, a shorter barrel will actually chronograph faster than a longer one. I have seen 100fps difference in the same ammo in 3 different guns, all with the same barrel length,

When all the stars line up just right, you can get results just the opposite of what you expect, and they are accurate, perfectly valid results. Its due to the variables involved.

Its not often that a 4 inch shoots faster than an 8 inch, or a lighter load faster than a heavier one, but it can, and does happen.

This is why all the loading data is, and must be considered merely a guideline, not hard and fast fact, for your gun and ammo. It might be, but it doesn't have to be, and often is only close. Accept that it doesn't matter what the makers say velocity ought to be (and is, from their guns), because from your gun it is what you measure it as, and only that.


I have seen folks on the net here get all worked up over load A being 35fps faster than load B from a different maker. No doubt its important to them, but in the real world, pffftt!!!

[Crimp]

Spacecoast - I had an idea you were working with the Remington FBI load! That's actually my carry ammo for my snubbies.

I've been working with a few of the other LSWCHP bullets, but haven't found any quite as soft as the Remington which I really like. Here's a picture of a Remington over my 5.0gr Universal load into gallon milk jugs of water. I believe it went through 4 jugs and didn't penetrate the 5th.



This bullet performs well in the short snubbie. With another inch of barrel, I believe I'd go to the harder Zero LSWCHP.

[spacecoast]

Crimp -

That sure is a pretty picture! Where are you getting your Remington bullets?

[teumessian_fox]

I'm sure somebody has already said it, but when you're looking to load up to a maximum charge, start with a known safe charge and work up in gradual increments. After you fire the lesser powered charges, look for signs of excessive pressure all along the way. Flattened primers. Cases that are hard to extract. That sort of thing.

This message brought to you by the Department of Common Sense.

[Crimp]

spacecoast: The Remmie bullet was pulled from a commercial round. I have yet to find a source for their LSWCHPs in bulk.

And just FYI - here's one of the Zero LSWCHPs shot under the same conditions with the same load of 5.0gr Universal. I'm thinking just a tenth or two will get it all the way open, but that's pushing Universal which may not be a good thing... I may give a few slower powders a try. I really want to duplicate that Remington load!



Also, I received some 158gr LSWCHPs from Magnus today. Using the highly scientific fingernail method, they SEEM to be just a touch softer than the Zeros but harder than the Remingtons. As soon as I get the chance (and find some more milk jugs), I'll try them for performance and post a picture if anyone is interested.

[Crimp]

I'm sure somebody has already said it, but when you're looking to load up to a maximum charge, start with a known safe charge and work up in gradual increments. After you fire the lesser powered charges, look for signs of excessive pressure all along the way. Flattened primers. Cases that are hard to extract. That sort of thing.

This message brought to you by the Department of Common Sense.

~teumessian_fox

Teumessian -- tell me what you see here:

[fecmech]

The Lyman cast bullet handbook lists +P loading of 5.4 grs of Unique with both the 158 swc and 158 RN and pressures of 18000 cup.They also list5.2 grs (std pressure) with a 162 gr SWC@16,200 cup and 5.0 grs(std pressure) with a 168 gr SWC @16,700 cup. There has been a gazillion rds of 158 SWC .38s loaded and fired over 5 grs of Unique.

[spacecoast]

Crimp -

Thanks very much for showing the contrast of Remington vs. Zero bullets. I'd certainly be interested in seeing any other ones you can come up with.

[Ike666]

I dunno Crimp - that Remington case is showing some flattening and breech-face imprinting, awful deep crater too - flowing back around that firing pin

[Crimp]

I dunno Crimp - that Remington case is showing some flattening and breech-face imprinting, awful deep crater too - flowing back around that firing pin ~Ike666

LOL! That imprinting may have come from when that brass was shot ten times ago! I was hoping teumessian_fox was going to tell me the Federal primer was showing over-pressure from flattening.

But actually, both rounds were the exact same loads. The Federal was shot in a M60 .357 and the Rem was shot in a M438 .38.

I guess I was being nasty. I've read over this thread 10 times. It appears to me the people posting all exhibit an understanding of the subject matter and reloading in general. Then, someone jumps in the middle and preaches to us about being careful and has no helpful, on-subject data, with a comment, "I'm sure somebody has already said it..." when obviously, no one had. Oh well. I'm sure he had good intentions, but it just caught me wrong. My apologies!

[bamacisa]

I have shot a lot of 38- 158 gr swc rounds using 5.3 grains of unique. I use revolvers that are rated for 357 mag ...so there is really no problem. It is a stiff load, but it is not a proof load. BTW it is a accuraate load.

[fecmech]

Looking at primers as pressure indicators in rounds such as .38 spl, .44 spl, .45 acp etc IMO is a waste of time. All of these cartridges have SAAMI max pressures in the 15-20k PSI range. You use the same primers in a .357 mag as a .38 spl and .44 spl as .44 mag. If you load a .44 mag or .357 mag in the 25-30K PSI range you are loading mild mag loads but they would be past proof loads in the specials! There will be no primer flattening or cratering due to excessive pressure in the mag load, why would you expect it in the special loads? IMO in the low pressure rounds there is no meaningful way to determine a max safe load other than using published data. I would like to have someone show me a way for a handloader to tell if he was 5000 PSI over or under a max .38 spl load by examining cases or primers. You can get an idea of your pressures by using a chronograph if your velocities are markedly higher or lower but not by cases or primers.