Anyone familiar with this powder?

[Jason280]

I picked up an 8lb jug of powder recently, but I cannot find much information on it. The jug is simply labeled "Surplus powder for 30-06 M2 Ball Ammunition", and I think it was originally sold by River Valley Ordnance. I'm pretty sure its some kind of pulldown powder, but I am not sure of the exact kind. Anyone know if this is pulldown 4895, or is it something else? Thanks!

[thallub]

It is WC852 ball powder. I missed the ball part.

[wjkuleck]

It is most definitely not IMR 4895, because IMR 4895 is not "ball powder" if the label is to be believed.

There are a number of problems with buying this stuff, one being that even if it were something like, oh, IMR 4895, it wouldn't be IMR 4895. Why? Because as pull-down powder, it's not a "canister" powder.

Canister powders are formulated—blended, really—to be consistent from can-to-can, day in, day out, for the life of the product offering. IMR 4895 from 1950 had the same characteristics, exactly, as IMR 4895 from 1980. You could confidently use the same load information regardless of when the can(ister) was filled, because the powder would be exactly the same.

Not true for powder loaded by ammunition plants into cartridges. This powder has no pretense for uniformity, lot-to-lot. The ammo plant simply adjusts the quantity of powder from each lot to achieve the specified muzzle velocity. The differences in burn rate lot-to-lot are compensated for by changing the powder charge.

So, not only do you not know what powder is in that can, you don't know what load data to use even if you made a lucky guess. Oh, and there's no reason why all the powder in the can is the same; it could be "ball" powder with a little flake mixed in, if the source cartridges were from different lots. You'll have to look at each powder grain to make sure it's the same as its fellows.

Regards,

Walt

[Slamfire]

If it is WC852 it is appropriate for Garand mechanisms. WC852 was used in 30-06 LC.

There were a number of 90,000 pound lots of WC852 sold as surplus. Each one has a slightly different burn rate. Jeff Bartlett at GIbrass.com sold WC852, and I purchased some powder off him.

I have found that my lot of WC852 is a slow lot. It shoots very well at high density loading. That is the case must be above 90% full. I have tested loads in 7mm Mauser, 30-06, 7.5 Swiss, 6.5 Swede and found it to perform well. It gave good velocities in 243, but the test barrel would not perform with anything and was replaced.

I tried it in 308 Win, 303 Brit. I was unable to get respectable velocities with my lot.

Accurate Arms purchased one 90,000 pound lot and sold it as AA2700. They are still selling it, probably new manufacture now. So look at the AA manual and do your own load development. After all, yours is a different lot. Could be faster, could be slower.

Be cautious though, that stuff could be any ball powder, W846, etc.

[snuffy]

There are a number of problems with buying this stuff, one being that even if it were something like, oh, IMR 4895, it wouldn't be IMR 4895. Why? Because as pull-down powder, it's not a "canister" powder.

Very true! But reloaders that buy surplus powders know that. And we test each new jug we get from sources like Jeff Bartlet, Pats, powder valley and hi-tech. When WC-844 was available from Jeff's as new powder, it was splendid stuff. The pull down I got after that source of new powder was gone was slower, needed more powder by 1.5 grains to equal the previous velocities.

Now, as to the mystery powder, IF it is ball powder,(the ball on the label may only refer to the type of projectile), it could be WC-844, WC-846, OR WC-852. The WC 844 would use H-335 data. The WC-846 would use BLC-2 data,(some say WW-748 or H-414 could be used for data). The WC-852, I'm not sure what it correlates to for load data, WW-760?.

According to the Hodgdon manual, using 30-06 as an example, H-335 starting load for a 150 gr. bullet, 46.0 gr. BLC-2 uses 47.0 gr. If it is WC-852 AND it uses WW-760 data, then the starting load for 30-06, 150 is 55.0.

A lot of guessing on my part, but if I had that keg of powder, that's exactly how I'd approach it. I have a chronograph, it would certainly be set up when shooting test loads of that powder. That's exactly how I approach loading any of the surplus powders I get from Jeff Bartlet. As said above, each can be and IS different from the last jug I got.

[Perajio]

I only purchase the name brand stuff when it comes to powders......

[Jason280]

I popped the top, and it is ball powder. Now, the mystery is which ball powder...

I have a chronograph, so I may try working up a plinking load in my .223.

[crowbeaner]

I'd try the data for WW 748 or BLC2. They are both faster than WW 760/ WC 852 so you won't have any problems. H335 is also similar in burn rate.

[45-70Govt]

I would start with the loads listed for the fastest powder to be safe.

[73-Captain]

"But reloaders that buy surplus powders know that."



From the OPs questions obviously not true...

A great deal is a waste of money if you don't have a clue what to do with what you bought or have reloading data.

Have to agree with "wjkuleck". I'll stay on the safe side and go with Walts wisdom and experience.

C.

[jaguarxk120]

Why not just call them. The phone number is 636-926-3076

You can go on to their web site www.rvow.com and see what they have.

Chances are the ball powder you have is WC 852 , the army technical manual
(TM 43-0001-27) lists WC 852. The ball powder is used in the 30-06 M2 round with armor piercing bullets. The data can be found in section five of the manual.

Tom F.

[Jason280]

I'd completely forgotten about this thread...

Here's what I was able to find out. Apparently, the powder is very similar to H450 and Win 785. Problem is, neither of these powders are still available. However, I have been able to find some load data on the internet.

[73-Captain]

"Jason280" said, "I'd completely forgotten about this thread..."

"Here's what I was able to find out. Apparently, the powder is very similar to H450 and Win 785. Problem is, neither of these powders are still available. However, I have been able to find some load data on the internet."



If this powder is US Gov. Surplus powder and it is "suitable for the .30-06" then it was made for use in the M-1 Garand.

H450/W785 powders are slow burning powders UNSUITABLE for use in the M-1 Garand.

This powder can't be similar to H450/W785.

C.

[the_right_reverend]

If this powder is US Gov. Surplus powder and it is "suitable for the .30-06" then it was made for use in the M-1 Garand.

or the M1919 Browning machine gun

I don't think i would want to use this powder

[WadePatton]

I was given a container of such powder. It says use 414 data or somesuch. Finally got around to trying it. I dropped 70 grains of it behind a 270 BT in 375hh--works DANDY. Actually need to back off a notch as the primers are flattening. And my 06 LUVS 414, so I'll try it there too.

BE GLAD to take these "unusable powders" off anyones hands so long as shipping isn't involved. I have enough different calibers to make it work in something...

[olddrum1]

When Hodgdon powder got its start, they specialized in these kind of powders. They actually resold military powder I believe. I may be wrong on this but I do not believe so. You might try contacting them and query them about surplus powder in case an oldtimer is still around. I have dealt with them on several diffirent things and they are really good people that will help.

[Whisper 300]

Jaguar,
I was under the impression that Tom at rvow.com had passed away and the operation was non-functioning.
Web site last updated in 2005 and repeated attempts to reach them have gone unanswered.
If you have more recent information please post it as I would love to get back in touch and order some more from them.
If my information is wrong, Tom, please accept my apologies and best of health for the future, if it is correct, condolences to the family.

Thanks,

Gary

[K.W.]

That powder is very good fertilizer for flowerbed?