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Old November 7, 2013, 11:28 PM   #1
masseyman
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30 carbine - lowest workup load to hot

I'm a newbie to reloading, before starting I did my due diligence and read and researched before jumping in. I have successfully loaded 9mm and fired about 500 rounds of my loaded ammo.

I always do workup loads when starting a new recipe using many different references for my load data.

Here is my issue;

My lowest workup load for 30 carbine showed signs of being too hot. This is the first time I have tried loading 30 Carbine.

30carbprimer1.jpg
30carbprimer2.jpg

I am loading 30 Carbine, start load is:
14.00 grains of Winchester 296
Hornady 100 Grain SJ plinker
C.O.A.L of 1.680
no crimp from the seater/crimp die

I did 4 rounds each of:
14.00
14.10
14.20
14.30
And weighed each load to make sure they were at the proper powder weight.

After the first test fire of one of the lowest rounds I checked it over and (as you can see in the pics) there were signs of high pressure. I stopped there and, since I had not changed my loader from the highest load, double checked to make sure I didn't do something wrong. Checked crimp first to make sure there was none, nope, no crimp. Checked powder measure to make sure scale was not giving me wrong weight, nope, used 2 different scales and they both gave me the same reading. Checked OAL, yep, 1.680.

HMMM..... I said to myself. I guess I'll hit the forums and seek advice.

So, my question is. Should I drop down some more and start again? If so, how much?

Almost forgot to add; the rifle is a M1 30 Carbine and fires factory rounds just fine.
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Old November 7, 2013, 11:58 PM   #2
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What brand carbine? I had a universal, I have a hunch my reloads, even though they were starting loads, beat the hell out of gas system. I was using H110 (15grns I think but that was almost four years ago. So I can't remember exactly). I remember seeing a reloading book that differentiated between GI carbines and universal.

Just figured I'd offer that word of caution.

*I always use starting loads, so if someone takes issue with 15grn of h110 it's my memory failing me.
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Old November 8, 2013, 12:07 AM   #3
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Why do you think the load is too hot? Because the primer seem flattened? Did you chronograph your load?

-TL
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Old November 8, 2013, 01:16 AM   #4
masseyman
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I do not have a chronograph. Yes, I thought it was too hot because of the flattened primer. The factory loads I shoot (Remington, Federal, PPU) don't do that.

The type of Carbine I believe is an Iver Johnson?? I believe. That is what local gunsmith that I had check it over before I started shooting it told me.
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Old November 8, 2013, 06:58 AM   #5
Salmoneye
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I see nothing there that would lead me to immediately believe the load was hot...
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Old November 8, 2013, 07:22 AM   #6
mdmtj
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Same bullet, powder, and OAL.
14.8 gr of the W296 works well in my carbine. 14.0 grains wouldn't cycle the action properly.

My eyes aren't doing well this morning, what is that in the second photo?
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Old November 8, 2013, 08:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
I see nothing there that would lead me to immediately believe the load was hot...

Same here.

Quote:
My eyes aren't doing well this morning, what is that in the second photo?
I too was trying to figure that out.


W296 should not be loaded under minimum. I doubt even a chrono would know the difference between .1 increments.
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Old November 8, 2013, 11:24 AM   #8
masseyman
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Sorry, I guess I should have explained the photos.

The first photo is the flattened primer still in the spent casing.
The second is the primer after I popped it out. It is a side view showing that the primer has a lip on it. The anivil is next to it, it came out as I de-primed it.

mdmjt - I agree on the recipe, just about all the load data I found matched your recipe. But when I fired that round, it ejected well, and I expected it not to eject since it was a low grain weight.

If you guys think it's not too hot, I might try another one to see if I get the same results. Maybe I missed something on that "One" round.
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Old November 8, 2013, 12:00 PM   #9
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Most all the comments are spot on. See no signs of over pressure (nor a flattened primer) and your loads are on the low side. 15 grs of 296/110 is pretty much the standard. Personally, I stay close to that. Other suggestion would be change bullets, they shouldn't be doing that. Get a 110 grn fmj (you can get one with a soft point if necessary, my range does not allow any fmj rounds). 296 with a 115 grn bullet is what was developed when the M-1 carbine was designed and put into service.
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Old November 8, 2013, 12:08 PM   #10
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I have a CZ527 with Pac Nor barrel chambered in a wildcat based on the 30 carbine cartridge.

I have blown the face off the bolt twice.

I have a lack of respect for the 30 carbine case head in a work up without case support to the web. It does not have warning or transition, it just blows.
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Old November 8, 2013, 12:09 PM   #11
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What primer are you using?

cases?

Where did you get your data?

A quick check of a couple of my old books shows 14gr of 296 is not a starting load for a 100gr bullet. Max listed loads are in the 15gr range.

Which primer you are using can make a difference. Thickness and composition of the cup metal (and therefore how much they flow, at a given pressure) vary between brands. Sometimes they even vary between lot#s.

Brand A might show you that lip on the cup, while brand C, doesn't, with the exact same load.

Cases make a difference too. Different brands have slightly different internal capacities, and military brass is usually thicker than commercial.
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Old November 8, 2013, 01:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
A quick check of a couple of my old books shows 14gr of 296 is not a starting load for a 100gr bullet. Max listed loads are in the 15gr range.
Winchester site shows 14.5 start to 15.5 max.
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Old November 8, 2013, 02:11 PM   #13
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You guys are correct on the data. 14.5 as the start load. I decided to start a little lower because I could not find exact data for the Hornady soft jacket.

Sources used were my friends Lyman load manual, and the Internet (powder companies, bullet companies, forums) all had the same data with very little deviation.

CCI small rifle primers

Various cases LC, Remington, PPU

Last edited by masseyman; November 8, 2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old November 9, 2013, 02:24 AM   #14
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30 carbine - lowest workup load to hot

W296 is one of the powders that should not be downloaded as much as normal for a start load. Only 3% less than max rather than typical 10% reduction. My Carbine will mot function reliably with less than 15.0 gr W296. That's what I use, no problems.
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Old November 9, 2013, 02:39 AM   #15
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Unless I missed it somewhere, you did not mention what type of primer you are using.
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Old November 11, 2013, 12:23 AM   #16
masseyman
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Post #13 - CCI Small Rifle primers

From what I'm reading here, maybe I had just a quirk on that one, and only one I fired. Didn't get to get out and shoot one of the others this weekend, but will try to this week and post the results.
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Old November 11, 2013, 09:29 AM   #17
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A light load will often flatten primers more than a hotter load.

Too light a load can cause the primer to flatten. Upon being struck by the firing pin, the case is driven forward a bit, the powder begins to ignite, the case swells and grabs the chamber wall, the increasing internal pressure pushes the primer out of the pocket. The increasing pressure finally gets high enough to overcome the case friction and pushes the case back against the boltface.....which crushes the primer flat.

I also run 100gr plinkers in my Carbine. I need at least 14.9gr of 296 to cycle reliably.
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Old November 11, 2013, 05:56 PM   #18
masseyman
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To all who said that a light load will flatten primers, I think I have evidence you are correct.

I got out today and fired some of the other rounds.

In this photo I have 5 cases viewed from the top. From right to left, they are.

Case far right - 4.2 grains
4.3 grains
4.4 grains
4.5 grains
Case far left - unfired

30carb_cases_top.jpg

The 14.5 grain fired primer looks normal while the others look flattened.
Thanks to those who replied, I can surmise that the lower grain cartridges did not expand enough to grab the sides of the chamber and allowed the case to slam back into the bolt face thus flattening the primer. I didn't notice it the first time, but these cases had a sooty covering all the way back to the case head, evidence of too low of a charge.

Unless I'm way off base, and somebody replies otherwise. I will start again and go from 14.5 grains up to 15.
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Old November 11, 2013, 06:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
warhwkbb -A light load will often flatten primers more than a hotter load.

Too light a load can cause the primer to flatten. Upon being struck by the firing pin, the case is driven forward a bit, the powder begins to ignite, the case swells and grabs the chamber wall, the increasing internal pressure pushes the primer out of the pocket. The increasing pressure finally gets high enough to overcome the case friction and pushes the case back against the boltface.....which crushes the primer flat.
I agree!
I've been loading the 30 for many years for a carbine and a pistol and light loads will give this appearance.
Also if I remember right the round chambers on the case mouth like a 9mm 45 acp and if the brass is a little short you will get flat primers.
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