New Savage .223 with a looong throat

steveNChunter · December 1, 2013, 10:05 PM

I bought a new Savage Axis stainless in .223 the other day and still havent got the chance to start working up a load for it, but I was sitting in my shop today and decided I'd stick a dummy round seated really long into the chamber and close the bolt on it, thus seating the bullet to the lands and giving me a max OAL for that chamber/bullet combination.

The bullet I'm using is a 69 gr Sierra Matchking, never used the bullet before and this is a new unfired rifle so it's all new territory for me since each chamber is different. Even with that in mind, the measurement I got was a little surprising IMO.

I ejected the round after seating the bullet and the round measured 2.410". I loaded it and closed the bolt on it a few more times and it still came out to 2.408". I realize this isn't the most precise way to measure a chamber but it has always worked in the past for me and helped me develop accurate loads.

2.408" is a good bit longer than the max OAL of 2.260" in my manuals. Should I be concerned about it? I have heard Savage .223's have a bit of a rep for having long chamber throats, but I didn't think they would be that long.

Or could it be due to the length of the bullet above the ogive on the 69 gr matchking?

I'll probably load my fiirst test rounds to the specified length in the manual, but I doubt I'll see much accuracy that far off the lands.

Does anybody else think that's way too long? And what should I do about it?

Marco Califo · December 1, 2013, 10:58 PM

I have an Edge/Axis 223 in blued matte. When I get home, I am going to try that with Hornady 75 gr HPBT, and Sierra 65 GK. I like the rifle a lot, and have gotten used to the trigger, even though I shoot a 308 Savage with the Accutrigger. I have noticed that I can load right up to published Max's with no over-pressure signs, so it would not surprise me if they make longer throats. Western/Accurate Powder have separate published loads for long throat chambers, so it would be great if the throat is adequate to use those loads. With the 1:9" twist, the 75 great HPBT are the longest bullet I shoot. I do not believe the 90 great SMK will stabilize with that twist.

Jim243 · December 1, 2013, 11:09 PM

I reload 75 grain Hornady A-Max at 2.390 for my Savage bolt action model 10 which is a 0.05 off the lands for my rifle. Shoots super accurate, like a laser straight to the target.

Jim

steveNChunter · December 2, 2013, 05:49 AM

One downside to the long throat though is if I want to load a bullet any shorter than the 69 gr Matchking, I'll be too short on my OAL by just getting the bullet far enough in the neck so it won't fall out. The MK is barely in there far enough at 2.400"

Could it be that it's a "5.56 friendly" chamber? Don't they have a longer OAL? It doesn't say 5.56 on the barrel or on their website, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't "idiot-proof" it so that somebody could shoot 5.56 in it and not get over pressure. I'm not planning on shooting any 5.56, just a thought I had.

4runnerman · December 2, 2013, 06:21 AM

Steve- I was in a post about 4 days ago. People could not believe me when I said I had same issue. It is not a issue at all. Seat your bullet at what ever AOL you want and shoot. Since you have a long throat,try this once,you will just freak out at how accurate it is. This load has been tested in at least 5 Axis now and is very very safe, No pressure signs at all

Trim length-1.74
CCI-BR4 Primer
60 gn V-Max
25.5 Varget
2.29 Col.

steveNChunter · December 2, 2013, 01:06 PM

Yea I think I saw that thread come to think of it. I'd like to try that load but I can't get ahold of any 60 gr vmax'es to try. I have all the rest on hand.

m&p45acp10+1 · December 2, 2013, 05:40 PM

I have a model 12 FSSV Long Range with the AccuTrigger. It has a long lead as well. I get half inch or better groups seating at standard lengths. The magazine is long enough that I can load them to touch the rifling with the longer bullets if I wanted to. The thing is the pay off for doing so was not enough to write home about. I get awesome groups using Hornady 55 grain V-Max loaded to 2.250. I use the same length for bullets up to 75 grains. My best shooting loads were with Hornady 68 grain HPBT Match bullets. (Note they are close in length to 75 grain Sierra HPBT Match Kings.) On a bad day I get a half inch group with 5 shots using the bipod, and sand bag under the rear of the stock.

Hunter Customs · December 2, 2013, 07:02 PM

steveNChunter, it's quite a coincidence that I stumbled on this thread today.

I have a Stevens 22-250 that's been shooting just under MOA and I feel it could be a little tighter.
I've been running my loads at Sierra's suggested OAL for the Blitzking bullets I'm loading.

Well for the heck of it I got out my chamber mic to check, man was I surprised, this rifle has an exceptionally long lead and my loads are not even close to touching the rifling.
So I'm going to start loading some loads with the bullets seated out farther and see what I get.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

steveNChunter · December 2, 2013, 07:35 PM

I'm thinking of starting .005" off the lands and going shorter in increments of .005" to find that "sweet spot"

Hunter Customs · December 3, 2013, 12:00 AM

Quote:

I'm thinking of starting .005" off the lands and going shorter in increments of .005" to find that "sweet spot"

I would say that's a good plan.

I made a dummy round for reference, it's .005 off the lands and chambers easily.
That will be my starting point.

The internal mag will accommodate the dummy round with no problems so that's a plus if I would have to make my loads that long.

I have another Savage rifle in 223, that's a shooter.
It's a 110 model with a 20 inch heavy barrel, it shoots 5/16ths inch groups and does so consistently.

I don't recall the OAL of the loads I'm shooting in that rifle but I'll look at my records tomorrow.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

243winxb · December 3, 2013, 12:51 AM

Quote:

2.408" is a good bit longer than the max OAL of 2.260" in my manuals. Should I be concerned about it?

http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n...geAxis223R.jpg The distance the bullet jumps to the rifling has very little to do with accuracy in a factory rifle. Trying to seat a bullet into the rifling on a factory rifle, for the most part, does not work. To long and very little bearing surface will be in contact with the neck of the brass. On loading, the bullet may even become crooked, when hitting the feed ramp.

steveNChunter · December 3, 2013, 05:29 AM

I disagree with the previous post. I have a .25-06 that absolutely has to be loaded to an OAL of 3.235-3.240" any longer or shorter and groups open up to nearly twice the size. It's a factory Howa rifle. Most factory ammo shoots 1.5-2 MOA but my hand loads at 3.240 shoot consistent 3/4" groups at 100 yards. I was about to pull my hair out trying to get the thing to hold a tight group until I realized what OAL it liked.

4runnerman · December 3, 2013, 06:03 AM

I am with ya Steve. I have 9 rifles that disagree with that statement. Plus His targets ( good shooting by the way) Have nothing to do with his point he is tryng to make

Hunter Customs · December 3, 2013, 09:09 AM

The OAL of the loads I'm shooting in my Savage 223 is 2.225.
The bullet in this load is Sierra's Gameking 55 gr JHP #1390.
I don't have a chamber Mic for a 223 but I'm going to get one, as I have a couple of other 223 rifles I would like to check.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

243winxb · December 3, 2013, 09:39 AM

Thread on the same subject here > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=736058

Rimfire5 · December 3, 2013, 10:13 AM

I have a CZ 527 Varmint in .223 and my son has a Savage 10 FCP-K as do two friends at our range.

All four of these .223s have chambers so deep that, using the Stoney Creek chamber length gage, 52 grain and lighter weight bullets are not still seated in the neck when they are pushed into the rifling. It is really hard to measure the chamber when the bullet won't fit into the neck because the ramming tool is sticking out past the neck after you take it out of the chamber.

However, 69 grain bullets are just into the neck enough that you can measure the chambers.

All 4 of the rifles shoot under 0.36 inch groups on average with their 25 favorite loads, so the deep chamber doesn't matter much. However, we have found that there can be more than one node for a given powder charge when you adjust the OAL from SAAMI to whatever keeps the bullet in the neck with enough bullet in the neck to maintain consistency.

The deep chamber made us test more than we had expected to. Some of the best nodes wound up seated pretty far out into the neck of the cartridges.

Hunter Customs · December 4, 2013, 10:22 AM

In my 22-250 things are looking sweeter with the 55 gr Blitzkings seated .050 off the lands, this is still .090 over the OAL of Sierra's recommendation in their manual.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Clark · December 4, 2013, 11:22 AM

Long 223 chamber throats is one of my pet peeves.
If I put a 75 gr bullet barely in the neck of a case [way too long OAL to feed from the magazine] it STILL will not reach the lands of my Bushmaster V-match AR15.

When I ordered a custom .223 reamer from Manson, I got the neck at .250" and the throat .050" shorter than SAAMI.

In Sept 2013 I put a bull barrel and tactical stock on a 1972 Sav 110 action. I cut the chamber with the short throat.
I took it to the range with some ammo loaded for ground squirrels and shot this first group.

IN YOUR FACE BUSHMASTER V-MATCH LONG THROAT!!

Marco Califo · December 4, 2013, 01:45 PM

I put a Hornady 75 gr BTHP into a sized 5.56 case and loaded it into my chamber and closed the bolt on my factory Edge/Axis. Ejected the round and it measures 2.420". Probably not a coincidence, this length DOES just fit into the Savage Axis detachable magazine. This is longer than the COAL Sierra lists for their 69 gr SMK of 2.26". However, it is shorther than the COAL Sierra gives for the 80 gr SMK of 2.55".
Accurate's load data for 223 Remington (Custom Long Throat) are all just under 2.55".
So the Savage rifles, while they may have long throats, are not so long as to accommodate the longest bullets and their special loads.
Using the bullet stability calculator here, the 75 gr Hornaday BTHP is the longest bullet which will stabilize reliably in the 1:9" twist barrels.

Colorado Redneck · December 4, 2013, 06:01 PM

Most rifles have longgggg leads. If you can seat one caliber into the neck that is supposedly the minimum for case neck tension, but I have tried some less than one caliber with good results.

Peetzakiller said in a post about this subject that he has loaded rifle rounds with much less than one caliber in the case neck, without any terrible results.

reynolds357 · December 4, 2013, 06:11 PM

Just pretend its a Weatherby and call it "freebore."

steveNChunter · December 4, 2013, 06:59 PM

One good thing is that it will make it easier to load compressed loads with heavier bullets since there won't be as much bullet in the case. That is if I ever load any compressed loads. I'll be using Varget first so I shouldn't be filling the case all the way

Hunter Customs · December 7, 2013, 10:05 AM

The loads I'm shooting in my Savage 223 are compressed.

I've found in most of my rifles compressed powder charges most often shoot best for me.

Shooting compressed loads may be kind of a trade off, because I have to use slower powders.

Shooting slower powders may cause me to give up a little velocity, but for a good accuracy gain I don't mind.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

steveNChunter · December 7, 2013, 08:51 PM

Actually I looked in my Lyman 49th manual and with the bullet I'm using (69 gr SMK) it lists the max load of Varget at 26.0 gr compressed. That's also the most accurate load tested with that bullet. However if I seat the bullet at about 2.400" I'm not sure if it will still be a compressed load. Only one way to find out

243winxb · December 8, 2013, 10:33 AM

i found the Hornady 68gr/IMR 3031 to be more accurate than the Sierra 69 gr. The Nosler 55gr beat both in my Axis.

December 1, 2013, 10:58 PM	#2
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Good question I have an Edge/Axis 223 in blued matte. When I get home, I am going to try that with Hornady 75 gr HPBT, and Sierra 65 GK. I like the rifle a lot, and have gotten used to the trigger, even though I shoot a 308 Savage with the Accutrigger. I have noticed that I can load right up to published Max's with no over-pressure signs, so it would not surprise me if they make longer throats. Western/Accurate Powder have separate published loads for long throat chambers, so it would be great if the throat is adequate to use those loads. With the 1:9" twist, the 75 great HPBT are the longest bullet I shoot. I do not believe the 90 great SMK will stabilize with that twist. __________________ ............

December 1, 2013, 11:09 PM	#3
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	I reload 75 grain Hornady A-Max at 2.390 for my Savage bolt action model 10 which is a 0.05 off the lands for my rifle. Shoots super accurate, like a laser straight to the target. Jim __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

December 2, 2013, 05:49 AM	#4
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	One downside to the long throat though is if I want to load a bullet any shorter than the 69 gr Matchking, I'll be too short on my OAL by just getting the bullet far enough in the neck so it won't fall out. The MK is barely in there far enough at 2.400" Could it be that it's a "5.56 friendly" chamber? Don't they have a longer OAL? It doesn't say 5.56 on the barrel or on their website, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't "idiot-proof" it so that somebody could shoot 5.56 in it and not get over pressure. I'm not planning on shooting any 5.56, just a thought I had. __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 2, 2013, 06:21 AM	#5
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	Steve- I was in a post about 4 days ago. People could not believe me when I said I had same issue. It is not a issue at all. Seat your bullet at what ever AOL you want and shoot. Since you have a long throat,try this once,you will just freak out at how accurate it is. This load has been tested in at least 5 Axis now and is very very safe, No pressure signs at all Trim length-1.74 CCI-BR4 Primer 60 gn V-Max 25.5 Varget 2.29 Col. __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

December 2, 2013, 01:06 PM	#6
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Yea I think I saw that thread come to think of it. I'd like to try that load but I can't get ahold of any 60 gr vmax'es to try. I have all the rest on hand. __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 1, 2013, 10:05 PM	#1
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	New Savage .223 with a looong throat I bought a new Savage Axis stainless in .223 the other day and still havent got the chance to start working up a load for it, but I was sitting in my shop today and decided I'd stick a dummy round seated really long into the chamber and close the bolt on it, thus seating the bullet to the lands and giving me a max OAL for that chamber/bullet combination. The bullet I'm using is a 69 gr Sierra Matchking, never used the bullet before and this is a new unfired rifle so it's all new territory for me since each chamber is different. Even with that in mind, the measurement I got was a little surprising IMO. I ejected the round after seating the bullet and the round measured 2.410". I loaded it and closed the bolt on it a few more times and it still came out to 2.408". I realize this isn't the most precise way to measure a chamber but it has always worked in the past for me and helped me develop accurate loads. 2.408" is a good bit longer than the max OAL of 2.260" in my manuals. Should I be concerned about it? I have heard Savage .223's have a bit of a rep for having long chamber throats, but I didn't think they would be that long. Or could it be due to the length of the bullet above the ogive on the 69 gr matchking? I'll probably load my fiirst test rounds to the specified length in the manual, but I doubt I'll see much accuracy that far off the lands. Does anybody else think that's way too long? And what should I do about it? __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 2, 2013, 05:40 PM	#7
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I have a model 12 FSSV Long Range with the AccuTrigger. It has a long lead as well. I get half inch or better groups seating at standard lengths. The magazine is long enough that I can load them to touch the rifling with the longer bullets if I wanted to. The thing is the pay off for doing so was not enough to write home about. I get awesome groups using Hornady 55 grain V-Max loaded to 2.250. I use the same length for bullets up to 75 grains. My best shooting loads were with Hornady 68 grain HPBT Match bullets. (Note they are close in length to 75 grain Sierra HPBT Match Kings.) On a bad day I get a half inch group with 5 shots using the bipod, and sand bag under the rear of the stock. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

December 2, 2013, 07:02 PM	#8
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	steveNChunter, it's quite a coincidence that I stumbled on this thread today. I have a Stevens 22-250 that's been shooting just under MOA and I feel it could be a little tighter. I've been running my loads at Sierra's suggested OAL for the Blitzking bullets I'm loading. Well for the heck of it I got out my chamber mic to check, man was I surprised, this rifle has an exceptionally long lead and my loads are not even close to touching the rifling. So I'm going to start loading some loads with the bullets seated out farther and see what I get. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

December 2, 2013, 07:35 PM	#9
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	I'm thinking of starting .005" off the lands and going shorter in increments of .005" to find that "sweet spot" __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 3, 2013, 05:29 AM	#12
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	I disagree with the previous post. I have a .25-06 that absolutely has to be loaded to an OAL of 3.235-3.240" any longer or shorter and groups open up to nearly twice the size. It's a factory Howa rifle. Most factory ammo shoots 1.5-2 MOA but my hand loads at 3.240 shoot consistent 3/4" groups at 100 yards. I was about to pull my hair out trying to get the thing to hold a tight group until I realized what OAL it liked. __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 3, 2013, 06:03 AM	#13
4runnerman Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,577	I am with ya Steve. I have 9 rifles that disagree with that statement. Plus His targets ( good shooting by the way) Have nothing to do with his point he is tryng to make __________________ NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional

December 3, 2013, 09:09 AM	#14
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	The OAL of the loads I'm shooting in my Savage 223 is 2.225. The bullet in this load is Sierra's Gameking 55 gr JHP #1390. I don't have a chamber Mic for a 223 but I'm going to get one, as I have a couple of other 223 rifles I would like to check. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

December 3, 2013, 09:39 AM	#15
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Thread on the same subject here > http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=736058

December 3, 2013, 10:13 AM	#16
Rimfire5 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2009 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 922	I have a CZ 527 Varmint in .223 and my son has a Savage 10 FCP-K as do two friends at our range. All four of these .223s have chambers so deep that, using the Stoney Creek chamber length gage, 52 grain and lighter weight bullets are not still seated in the neck when they are pushed into the rifling. It is really hard to measure the chamber when the bullet won't fit into the neck because the ramming tool is sticking out past the neck after you take it out of the chamber. However, 69 grain bullets are just into the neck enough that you can measure the chambers. All 4 of the rifles shoot under 0.36 inch groups on average with their 25 favorite loads, so the deep chamber doesn't matter much. However, we have found that there can be more than one node for a given powder charge when you adjust the OAL from SAAMI to whatever keeps the bullet in the neck with enough bullet in the neck to maintain consistency. The deep chamber made us test more than we had expected to. Some of the best nodes wound up seated pretty far out into the neck of the cartridges.

December 4, 2013, 10:22 AM	#17
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	In my 22-250 things are looking sweeter with the 55 gr Blitzkings seated .050 off the lands, this is still .090 over the OAL of Sierra's recommendation in their manual. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

December 4, 2013, 11:22 AM	#18
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Long 223 chamber throats is one of my pet peeves. If I put a 75 gr bullet barely in the neck of a case [way too long OAL to feed from the magazine] it STILL will not reach the lands of my Bushmaster V-match AR15. When I ordered a custom .223 reamer from Manson, I got the neck at .250" and the throat .050" shorter than SAAMI. In Sept 2013 I put a bull barrel and tactical stock on a 1972 Sav 110 action. I cut the chamber with the short throat. I took it to the range with some ammo loaded for ground squirrels and shot this first group. IN YOUR FACE BUSHMASTER V-MATCH LONG THROAT!! __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

December 4, 2013, 01:45 PM	#19
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Yes, long throat, but not by a lot I put a Hornady 75 gr BTHP into a sized 5.56 case and loaded it into my chamber and closed the bolt on my factory Edge/Axis. Ejected the round and it measures 2.420". Probably not a coincidence, this length DOES just fit into the Savage Axis detachable magazine. This is longer than the COAL Sierra lists for their 69 gr SMK of 2.26". However, it is shorther than the COAL Sierra gives for the 80 gr SMK of 2.55". Accurate's load data for 223 Remington (Custom Long Throat) are all just under 2.55". So the Savage rifles, while they may have long throats, are not so long as to accommodate the longest bullets and their special loads. Using the bullet stability calculator here, the 75 gr Hornaday BTHP is the longest bullet which will stabilize reliably in the 1:9" twist barrels. __________________ ............

December 4, 2013, 06:01 PM	#20
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	My few observations of throat length Most rifles have longgggg leads. If you can seat one caliber into the neck that is supposedly the minimum for case neck tension, but I have tried some less than one caliber with good results. Peetzakiller said in a post about this subject that he has loaded rifle rounds with much less than one caliber in the case neck, without any terrible results.

December 4, 2013, 06:11 PM	#21
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Just pretend its a Weatherby and call it "freebore."

December 4, 2013, 06:59 PM	#22
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	One good thing is that it will make it easier to load compressed loads with heavier bullets since there won't be as much bullet in the case. That is if I ever load any compressed loads. I'll be using Varget first so I shouldn't be filling the case all the way __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 7, 2013, 10:05 AM	#23
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	The loads I'm shooting in my Savage 223 are compressed. I've found in most of my rifles compressed powder charges most often shoot best for me. Shooting compressed loads may be kind of a trade off, because I have to use slower powders. Shooting slower powders may cause me to give up a little velocity, but for a good accuracy gain I don't mind. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

December 7, 2013, 08:51 PM	#24
steveNChunter Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2012 Location: Southern Appalachian Mtns Posts: 1,520	Actually I looked in my Lyman 49th manual and with the bullet I'm using (69 gr SMK) it lists the max load of Varget at 26.0 gr compressed. That's also the most accurate load tested with that bullet. However if I seat the bullet at about 2.400" I'm not sure if it will still be a compressed load. Only one way to find out __________________ DEO VINDICE

December 8, 2013, 10:33 AM	#25
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	i found the Hornady 68gr/IMR 3031 to be more accurate than the Sierra 69 gr. The Nosler 55gr beat both in my Axis.