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Old November 15, 2019, 10:08 PM   #51
TunnelRat
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If it's capable of disabling a human, my guess is it will make short work of sheetrock.

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Old November 16, 2019, 10:11 AM   #52
Bartholomew Roberts
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You mean powdered gypsum and paper isn’t bulletproof?

Guess I better rethink my plate carrier.
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Old November 17, 2019, 10:37 PM   #53
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All kidding aside, your best hope is going to be a reliable semi-auto type rifle in a rifle caliber when it comes to defeating a threat with a firearm whether or not it is in your home or anywhere else. And in a location lacking elbow room, it's gonna have to be a shorty and/or you're going to need to know how to slice some pie.

And yes, "over penetration" and accuracy are a serious concern.

.556/.223 depending on the load generally get spent fairly quickly but you simply can't count on it.

What you can really count on is the comfort you'll find when you know in your heart of hearts that you had to fire to save your life or the life of somebody else. But I can tell you that if one of your bullets nonetheless and inadvertently harms an innocent party, you'll still be personally devastated.
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Old November 18, 2019, 03:22 AM   #54
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bullet construction

I wonder if a .223 round loaded with the 40 grain V-Max bullet (available commercially as loaded ammo by Hornady, I think) would be frangible enough to not be as a severe an over penetration threat indoors as a conventional SD/tactical load, yet still sufficient as a "stopper"?

The load would have to be reliable in your carbine of course, and blast indoors from a carbine would be terrible w/o ear protection.
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Old November 18, 2019, 08:10 AM   #55
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I wonder if a .223 round loaded with the 40 grain V-Max bullet (available commercially as loaded ammo by Hornady, I think) would be frangible enough to not be as a severe an over penetration threat indoors as a conventional SD/tactical load, yet still sufficient as a "stopper"?

The load would have to be reliable in your carbine of course, and blast indoors from a carbine would be terrible w/o ear protection.
Never tested it on a wall but using a 75gr V-Max out of a 243 the bullet's blow up passing through 2" styrofoam and a paper target at 200yds. I would think the wall might stop a 40gr V-Max from a 223.
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Old November 18, 2019, 08:22 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by zoo View Post
All kidding aside, your best hope is going to be a reliable semi-auto type rifle in a rifle caliber when it comes to defeating a threat with a firearm whether or not it is in your home or anywhere else. And in a location lacking elbow room, it's gonna have to be a shorty and/or you're going to need to know how to slice some pie. (Copy to gun jargon thread-)

And yes, "over penetration" and accuracy are a serious concern.

.556/.223 depending on the load generally get spent fairly quickly but you simply can't count on it.

What you can really count on is the comfort you'll find when you know in your heart of hearts that you had to fire to save your life or the life of somebody else. But I can tell you that if one of your bullets nonetheless and inadvertently harms an innocent party, you'll still be personally devastated.
Yup, but 'or anywhere else'...not really. Gotta determine what's 'best' for the situation. Yes, a rifle is 'better' than a handgun when vs a bad guy with a handgun, but 'might' not be practical when you are with your family at the local Chuckie Cheese...

PLUS..everybody's home situation is different..both in design, number of people there, neighborhood..everybody has to make up their own mind considering these things.

For ME..a Glock 17 with a light on it, placed 'right there'.
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Old November 18, 2019, 07:05 PM   #57
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A 40gr VMAX in a 16” barrel will go through a typical sheetrock wall and still have enough energy to potentially be lethal to a person on the other side.

Also, 40gr VMAX out of a 16” barrel doesn’t penetrate 12” of bare ballistics gel. Generally though, the 40gr VMAX fragments and stops very fast. Several agencies have used that load as their reduced penetration load.
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Old November 21, 2019, 07:54 PM   #58
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USNRet93, I wasn't talking about what might be "best for the situation" or "more practical." I was speaking only of the act of stopping an assailant using a commonly available firearm.
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Old November 21, 2019, 08:38 PM   #59
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In the test, 12ga 000 buck went through 7 layers of sheetrock and stopped on the eighth. That would be equivalent to penetrating 3 interior walls and stopping halfway through the fourth.

#1 and #4 buck both penetrated the equivalent of 3 interior walls.
The advantage of buckshot in a shotgun is the ability to place multiple .32 cal, .30 cal, or .22 caliber rounds into a target at once.

This provides stopping power that 5.56mm rifle will not have eliminating the issues with lack of lethality found in 5.56mm rifles at CQB distances.

With a shotgun, one shot is all that is required compared to 7-8 shots out of a 5.56mm.

12 gauge 00 buck has for all intensive purposes the same penetration as 5.56mm while #4 Buckshot retains good lethality while having a substantial advantage in reducing over-penetration over 5.56mm.

I personally use 12 gauge 00 Buck and 1 oz slugs. I also pattern my shotgun and use a Improved cylinder instead of cylinder bore. The Improved Cylinder gives me better range and a tighter pattern over a longer distance.

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Old November 22, 2019, 01:30 PM   #60
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9mm SMG with a suppressor. Kriss Vector, SIG MPX, CZ Evo, AR-9, etc.
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Old November 24, 2019, 08:35 PM   #61
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9mm SMG with a suppressor. Kriss Vector, SIG MPX, CZ Evo, AR-9, etc.
Excellent choices for in the house. The small pistol caliber carbines make very good HD weapons IMHO. Only drawback is the expense.

We used HK products MP-5 series for many years before going to M4.

I even thought about getting one of PTR clones:

https://ptr-us.com/products/9x19mm/

https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/pro...-9x19mm-pistol

With the exception of the AR-9 the biggest issue with the pistol caliber carbines is expense. It is tough to find one for under a grand with most hovering around 1500-2000 bucks.

You can get a Benelli M4 or M2 for the same cost as an entry level pistol caliber carbine. You can build a fantastic HD Remington 870 or similar pump, stockpile lots of shells, and money left over to buy a good pistol to get you from the nightstand to the primary!

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Old November 24, 2019, 09:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by davidsog View Post
Excellent choices for in the house. The small pistol caliber carbines make very good HD weapons IMHO. Only drawback is the expense.



We used HK products MP-5 series for many years before going to M4.



I even thought about getting one of PTR clones:



https://ptr-us.com/products/9x19mm/



https://www.atlanticfirearms.com/pro...-9x19mm-pistol



With the exception of the AR-9 the biggest issue with the pistol caliber carbines is expense. It is tough to find one for under a grand with most hovering around 1500-2000 bucks.



You can get a Benelli M4 or M2 for the same cost as an entry level pistol caliber carbine. You can build a fantastic HD Remington 870 or similar pump, stockpile lots of shells, and money left over to buy a good pistol to get you from the nightstand to the primary!



The CZ Scorpion Evo, Grand Power Stribog, and PSA AKV are options in the sub $1000 class (Ruger PCC is sub $500). Granted they're straight blowback and not delayed roller blowback and don't have the history of the HK series firearms. But they have generally good reviews from a number of folks (absent the introduction issues of the AKV). I picked up a Stribog with a brace for $799 recently and even though I only have 400 or so rounds through it so far it seems decent. It's pretty handy and the lack of blast makes it pretty easy for my wife to use.

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Old November 25, 2019, 10:02 PM   #63
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The CZ Scorpion Evo and Grand Power Stribog are options in the sub $1000 class. Granted they're straight blowback and not delayed roller blowback and don't have the history of the HK series firearms. But they have good reviews from a number of folks. I picked up a Stribog with a brace for $799 recently and even though I only have 400 or so rounds through it so far it seems decent. It's pretty handy and the lack of blast makes it pretty easy for my wife to use.
Granted I have an Benelli M4 which is in the same price range as most pistol cartridge carbines.....

I built a very nice Remington 870 HD shotgun for under 300 bucks off a gunshow find of a magnum special purpose deer gun from the 1990's. That is a 7 rd extended magazine, Metal trigger with police internals, and a S&J hardware extended safety.

The point being and I think you help make it....

Pistol cartridge carbines are a more expensive option.
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Old November 25, 2019, 10:07 PM   #64
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Was just sharing that there are lower cost options for PCCs. Yes there are even cheaper shotguns.

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Old November 25, 2019, 11:10 PM   #65
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Granted I have an Benelli M4 which is in the same price range as most pistol cartridge carbines.....
Ya know, David, I know you're hot on em and shotguns do provide an effective blast but unfortunately those pellets are sorta crappy at penetrating personal ballistic armor.
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Old November 27, 2019, 09:13 AM   #66
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Ya know, David, I know you're hot on em and shotguns do provide an effective blast but unfortunately those pellets are sorta crappy at penetrating personal ballistic armor.
Yes, 00 Buck has about the same penetration as 5.56mm. Because of the larger surface area the .32 caliber shot in 00 buck generally can penetrate up to Level IIa but Level IIa usually stops it while 5.56mm is usually stopped by Level III. So in general, a slight body armor penetration advantage goes to the 5.56mm.

Due to the nature of shotguns and the variety of shells even within the same shot size makes it a little harder to nail down. A 3 in Magnum 00 Buck has more penetration than a 2 3/4" LE 00 Buck for example.

A failure drill is very effective with a shotgun however.

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Old November 28, 2019, 05:45 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by zoo
"Ya know, David, I know you're hot on em and shotguns do provide an effective blast but unfortunately those pellets are sorta crappy at penetrating personal ballistic armor."
Collecting news reports of home invasions - whether by drunks, ex-husbands, thieves, or armed assailants - is sort of a hobby of mine. I've read quite a few of them.

I can't recall the last time I read one where the home invader, whether a drunk, an angry ex, a thief, or even an armed criminal, wore personal ballistic armor.

Genuine question - not being difficult. Can you provide any links to examples of incidents where a home invader in any category wore personal ballistic armor? I've got to believe the probability of that scenario is near-zero, but don't have any data on them at all.
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Old November 28, 2019, 06:28 PM   #68
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Can you provide any links to examples of incidents where a home invader in any category wore personal ballistic armor? I've got to believe the probability of that scenario is near-zero, but don't have any data on them at all.
Not counting the rare occurrences where LEO or pretend LEO enter a home unlawfully and with malice?

I don't have any such stats to provide you, my friend.

I will estimate however that the ONE report of such an incident you'll see will involve my dead carcass when the only weapon I happened to have had immediately available to me at the time was my .38 snubby!

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Old November 29, 2019, 11:38 AM   #69
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Those who advocate the use of rifle cartridges for home defense should have the opportunity to go into something resembling an average house and fire several rounds in various locations.

Having done so, there are some disadvantages:

The blast effect itself is tremendous, especially in a hallway or small bedroom. It can be disorienting to the shooter, regardless of its effect on anyone else.

The fireball is blinding - particularly at night. You may be able to line up your first shot, but your subsequent shots may be viewed through a after-image as your night vision will be gone.

The noise is also disorienting - an AR-15 going off inside a hallway is extremely loud. The effect makes further communications challenging, particularly with regard to radio transmissions.

There are also secondary effects that may occur in some cases. Most homeowners don't dust their walls or light fixtures in their ceilings. This goes in spades for commercial facilities. When a rifle goes off inside a small enclosed space the blast effect dislodges that dust, and depending on whether its a home or some other enclosed space, that dust is displaced into the air where it can get in your eyes and interfere with your vision. To what extent it's problematic depends on how dusty the environment is, but between the noise, the blast, the fireball, and any after effects, the combined impact to the shooter can be substantial.

Additionally, when a 5.56mm round is fired in an apartment, it can go through the walls, through a refrigerator in the kitchen of the neighboring apartment, and through the stove next to the refrigerator as well, before it finally lodges in a countertop. Don't ask me how I know this.

If there are kids in any neighboring apartments, using a rifle as a personal defense weapon is distinctly sub-optimal.

Given the low probability of a home intruder wearing ballistic body armor, I'd suggest that if a home owner wants something other than a pistol or revolver, s/he should consider one of the pistol caliber carbines (PCC) - which offer more optimal characteristics inside small enclosed spaces. If it's allowable in your state, it would be wise to consider putting a suppressor on the weapon, which would reduce the impact to the shooter even further.

Just another opinion.
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Old November 29, 2019, 11:42 AM   #70
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Those who advocate the use of rifle cartridges for home defense should have the opportunity to go into something resembling an average house and fire several rounds in various locations.

Having done so, there are some disadvantages:

The blast effect itself is tremendous, especially in a hallway or small bedroom. It can be disorienting to the shooter, regardless of its effect on anyone else.

The fireball is blinding - particularly at night. You may be able to line up your first shot, but your subsequent shots may be viewed through a after-image as your night vision will be gone.

The noise is also disorienting - an AR-15 going off inside a hallway is extremely loud. The effect makes further communications challenging, particularly with regard to radio transmissions.

There are also secondary effects that may occur in some cases. Most homeowners don't dust their walls or light fixtures in their ceilings. This goes in spades for commercial facilities. When a rifle goes off inside a small enclosed space the blast effect dislodges that dust, and depending on whether its a home or some other enclosed space, that dust is displaced into the air where it can get in your eyes and interfere with your vision. To what extent it's problematic depends on how dusty the environment is, but between the noise, the blast, the fireball, and any after effects, the combined impact to the shooter can be substantial.

Additionally, when a 5.56mm round is fired in an apartment, it can go through the walls, through a refrigerator in the kitchen of the neighboring apartment, and through the stove next to the refrigerator as well, before it finally lodges in a countertop. Don't ask me how I know this.

If there are kids in any neighboring apartments, using a rifle as a personal defense weapon is distinctly sub-optimal.

Given the low probability of a home intruder wearing ballistic body armor, I'd suggest that if a home owner wants something other than a pistol or revolver, s/he should consider one of the pistol caliber carbines (PCC) - which offer more optimal characteristics inside small enclosed spaces. If it's allowable in your state, it would be wise to consider putting a suppressor on the weapon, which would reduce the impact to the shooter even further.

Just another opinion.
The only comment I'd made is pistol rounds can do the same. Really unless we're talking very specific walls, bullets go through them with ease, and even appliances aren't much anymore. The rest of your points are excellent.

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Old November 29, 2019, 12:01 PM   #71
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A friend who taught handgun marksmanship at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Brunswick, Georgia, had a 4" Revolver loaded with hollow base 158-gr. wadcutters in reduced load match ammo, seated backwards, as his bedside personal defense weapon. Minimal penetration in house walls, maximum tissue damage in bad guys. That's the compromises he thought was best.
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Old November 29, 2019, 12:47 PM   #72
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a 12ga pump loaded with 5 rounds of buckshot
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Old November 29, 2019, 01:24 PM   #73
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Those who advocate the use of rifle cartridges for home defense should have the opportunity to go into something resembling an average house and fire several rounds in various locations.
Doc Intrepid, I'm quite aware of the disadvantages of using rifle round(s) while inside buildings, cars, homes from first hand experience and not just from training. I still stand by my comments in post #53.

But hey, you do what you think is best for you.
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Old November 30, 2019, 07:25 AM   #74
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Heritage rough rider .22. Accurate, lower noise and small enough to hide from the maintenance man. Once a month they are on sale for 99 dollars which will help you save money for a house.
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Old December 2, 2019, 05:46 PM   #75
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We found it educational to actually take our shotguns to our pattern board at our club. We both had to deal with a somewhat larger space than the average apartment plus some outdoor concerns. Our finding were #4 buck or 00 buck was your pick. Both the Federal 00 and Remington #4 buck made very good patterns at 25 yards. My choice was #4 buck. My shotgun was an 870 with slug barrel. The other gun was one of those tricked out Mossberg pumps. The other guys choice was 00 buck. Our target was a B27.
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