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Old December 1, 2019, 08:02 AM   #1
hounddawg
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Amp Annealing Under the Microscope latest tests

Part 5 (Section 2)https://www.ampannealing.com/article...KEVA6G5K6EiDVM
Part 5 (Section 3)https://www.ampannealing.com/article...he-microscope/


At first glance I was ready to place an order immediately upon reading these then I began doing some critical thinking and posted this on the Accurate Shooter forum. I will just copy and paste my thoughts from this thread

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...3992267/page-2


#1- case life. Both annealed and non annealed cases were fired 20 times and no neck splits were reported. If I can get 20 firings from a quality case non annealed, I think I have gotten my moneys worth

#2 -The slopes of the charts. In part 5 section 2 the non annealed case numbers should have steadily increased, they did not. If you look at the various charts the slopes of both annealed and non annealed cases for all shooters were virtually parallel. In a number of the tests the numbers got better with the number of firings. There was no correlation at all with the number of firings and performance. The non annealed cases numbers should have climbed in a steady manner as they became work hardened, they did not. The non annealed slope should show a steady decrease in accuracy from firing one to firing twenty on the non annealed cases while the annealed cases numbers should have a even slope.

As Riflewoman pointed out in post 6 any tests in the future needs to be performed in a double blind manner. The placebo effect is well documented and any tests not performed using a double blind procedure should be taken with a grain of salt. All placebo effects, observer bias, conformation bias, and the human/environmental effect need to be removed for any future tests to be valid. My first reaction to seeing these tests was that annealing does work, but after some thought and analysis they have created more doubt than before on whether annealing has any positive effect at all on accuracy or case life. The numbers just do not add up


Only in Dennis Deans Velocity extreme spread did the numbers show any increase in the non annealed cases over time and even at that his Vertical MOA showed a decrease

Needless to say there will be no annealing done on my bench
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Old December 2, 2019, 01:10 AM   #2
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They need a precision machine rest gun like the one Harold Vaughn had in his book, Rifle Accuracy Facts. Putting people into the equation means you must double-blind and control for fatigue and external conditions changes and other factors by round-robin. It was not a convincing test design.
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Old December 2, 2019, 09:15 AM   #3
hounddawg
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Quote:
They need a precision machine rest gun like the one Harold Vaughn had in his book, Rifle Accuracy Facts. Putting people into the equation means you must double-blind and control for fatigue and external conditions changes and other factors by round-robin. It was not a convincing test design.
I completely agree the placebo effect is a well documented phenomena, and this test is a great example of it.Notice the non annealed numbers are higher than the annealed from the first firing on.

The only thing these tests showed me is that non annealed cases have every bit as much lifespan as annealed. Does anyone else find it curious that the non annealed actually had better numbers on the final group than it did on the first group on 4 of the 10 charts. Just looking at the linears only in one out of ten charts did the annealed cases show a noticeable improvement in performance over the non annealed from the first to the last
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Old December 2, 2019, 01:56 PM   #4
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Well if I can get 40 firings per bunch I don't have to go find and buy more cases. They become friends after a while and the loss of each one is like loosing a gold fish.

And not sure why accuray keeps creeping in, I don't know that it does or doesn't. If it does its bor the 1s and 2s shootes of which I am rarely one (pun).

I do know that if I don't at least in my guns I get splits at 8.

And, the bullet insertion gets harder and harder. That is annoying and I am willing to put a bit of work into it.

And I did not go with the only Houndawg approved device (HAD, humor intended ) , I went with my cheap old Annie that seem to do the job (granted with more effort on my part but I am also willing as I knew what I was getting into)
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Old December 2, 2019, 04:26 PM   #5
hounddawg
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As far as to why accuracy keep creeping in, for me shooting is all about accuracy. It's taken me years and a lot of $$$$ in ammo components, endless hours trying to perfect my reloading and shooting techniques and watching my group sizes decrease. If I seriously thought a $1500 piece of gear would drop me down .1 or .2 just by popping a case in a machine and pressing a button I would have one on order as fast as I could key in my debit card and press return.

That is why I found these articles so intriguing and exciting, at first glance it looked like annealing really did improve accuracy but then after some analysis the trend lines show it did absolutely nothing in the accuracy department, even in the hands of world class marksmen using the most advanced annealer available

I have no idea how many reloadings I can get from a case before the neck splits, I never went beyond 20 reloadings on a case myself. I have about 75 ten year old Lapua .308 Palma's that were shot above book recommendations with 20 reloads on them. I tend to use some pretty stout loads on my long range stuff and primer pockets seem to loosen before I ever get a neck split.

I consider brass a consumable just like primers, bullets, barrels and powder. When a primer pocket gets sloppy the case gets tossed. Someday I may take a press to the range with a resizing die and my arbor with a seating die and find out how far I can go. Maybe pre measure 40 or 50 charges out at home and use a single case to do a dot drill at 100 until the primer hole gets loose or the neck splits.

I am hoping to have a 100 yard range available within a few minutes drive next year so I might just do that.
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