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Old November 24, 2019, 04:00 PM   #1
pgb205
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Sudden gremlins in several of my guns. FTF, FTE...

Guns in question are
AR-pistol made from Anderson parts, SW 9c, Walther PPQ.
Ammo used fiocchi, freedom munitions and tullammo.
Ar-pistol and Walther PPQ have been used for many years without any issues, but mp9c is relatively new.

The issues observed are
failure to eject. On walther the casing just gets stuck between barrel and slide, but on AR-pistol the casing is not ejected and new round is force fed into the barrel. I have to drop the mag, lock back and then pry the new round and casing with my finger.
failure to feed. With 9c one of the images shows the new round almost vertical on the feed ramp.
failure to feed? with walther after firing one of the rounds I attempted to fire again and heard only pin drop. After locking back the empty casing was still in the barrel.
Multiple times the slide wouldn't lock back on empty mag
A few instances with walther of not picking up new round.

What did I try
I tried different kind of ammo for both AR-pistol and the handguns as mentioned above.
Cleaning. I started using Eezox recently and thought maybe that had negative effect. I've recleaned using Remoil but the problem wasn't corrected.
Several magazines.

Additional data
I've also had my itty bitty SW Shield and SW Ar15 and they had no problems whatsoever. As a matter of fact I haven't cleaned them the last few hundred rounds. Still going perfect.

Not sure what to think; open to all suggestions as to what might be wrong.

More picture coming up
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File Type: jpg ar-pistol-3.jpg (46.4 KB, 50 views)
File Type: jpg sw9c-3.jpg (48.8 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg ar-pistol-2.jpg (50.1 KB, 43 views)
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Old November 24, 2019, 04:01 PM   #2
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a few more pictures
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File Type: jpg walther-1.jpg (39.5 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg ar-pistol-1.jpg (55.8 KB, 36 views)
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Old November 24, 2019, 04:02 PM   #3
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last one
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Old November 24, 2019, 04:15 PM   #4
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You could just be having a run of bad luck, but let's leave that aside for the moment.

It's happening across a number of guns so it doesn't appear to be gun related.
It's happening across a variety of ammo so it doesn't appear to be ammo related.

That leaves us looking for something that has changed recently that isn't the gun or the ammo type.

I can think of a few.
  • Ammo storage issues. If the ammo is being stored in hostile conditions, it could possibly degrade and result in reduced reliability in automatics.
  • Cleaning/maintenance products. Especially when temps fall, the choice of lubricant can make a big difference.
  • Environment. Low temps can cause lubricants to thicken resulting in reliability issues. They can reduce the energy of the discharge, also resulting in jams in automatics.
  • Shooter. This wouldn't affect the gas-operated firearm, but the two recoil operated guns could be affected by grip. Things like a hand/wrist injury, the use of gloves, etc. might have an impact on reliability.
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Old November 24, 2019, 04:31 PM   #5
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*edit* JohnSka, you beat me to it! (I'm just long-winded)

I've got suggestions. But the interesting piece of data here to me is the AR pistol having issues the same time as the semi-autos. There isn't much on an AR to touch and interfere with the cycling.

Lubrication: What did you use for lubrication? Was it Eezox? Eezox isn't the greatest for lubrication but it's great for rust prevention. I know a light coating of Eezox is supposed to "dry up". If you don't wipe off the excess (as instructions say), does it become tacky? Perhaps you need oil after cleaning with Eezox. Some greases will also move more slowly in the cold. Check if you have lubricated with something that gums up in the cold.

Technique: for the pistols, have you started to wear gloves due to the cold weather? Have you had a recent hand injury or has it been a while since you shot? Anything that touches the slide during operation or a less firm grip could slow down reciprocation. A slow-moving slide wouldn't eject the empty casing very well and would fail to pick up the new round. This doesn't account for the AR pistol. That's why it could still possibly be lubrication. See if you've unconsciously been using a grip that touches the slide. Let another experienced shooter also shoot the pistol.

Ammo: As your problem has happened across calibers, this doesn't account for weak ammo unless two different batches were underpowered - which is much less likely. Did these failures happen with just one of those brands / boxes or all? Your problems sound like when my reloads don't have enough powder.

Temperature: How cold is it where you are shooting? Are you an Eskimo shooting in near-zero temperatures? Try some premium ammo which is usually loaded hotter.

Parts failure: It's possible, but I'm leaning away from this. Your recoil springs, mag springs, extractors could be getting old depending on how many thousands of rounds you've put through it. Recoil spring: has it been around 5,000 rounds? Extractor/extractor spring: has it been about 20,000 rounds? Since we don't have a sense of time from the original post, it seems that all the failures happened at once on the same outing which I know probably didn't happen.

Did this all happen over a single outing? Was there a clear demarcation between a new product and the failures? How often are these failures occurring? (Like 1 FTF in 50 rounds, or 1 in every mag?)
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Old November 24, 2019, 05:48 PM   #6
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I'm shocked that Freedom Munitions is still in business. Or maybe they are down & out but some of their dreck is still out in circulation.

I'd remove Freedom Munitions from my life, get back to it and report back.
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Old November 24, 2019, 07:09 PM   #7
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@sevens. I considered that it might be their reloaded ammo that's causing issues. But then neither my SW AR15 nor my shield are affected.

@johnksa. ammo storage I think should be ok. Fiocchi is only a few weeks old. Others are older but not by much. Normally I keep it at about 80F at my place.
At the range it was maybe 50F when I was there. I do prefer to keep my wrist pretty lax when shooting; the gun flips noticeably. I never had an issue with this before, and still don't with my shield 9 at least.

@dyl. Eezox was my primary suspect during my second outing to the range today as problem wasn't following either the ammo or the guns. I started using it a few month ago. After last weeks' problems I cleaned the three problematic firearms with RemOil and Hoppes 9 only. Double feed on the ar-pistol occur quite often. I'd say once per 30 round mag at least and yes all the problems started manifesting last week and also re-occurred today after cleaning with remoil.

PS: there might be some unusual wear marks on the bolt carrier of my AR-15 I willp post picture of those soon.
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Old November 24, 2019, 11:31 PM   #8
dyl
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Ar pistol:
Quote:
on AR-pistol the casing is not ejected and new round is force-fed into the barrel.
It could be the extractor or extractor spring is weak or damaged and does not hold onto the case rim well. When the bolt reciprocates it is letting go of the casing which stays in the chamber. The bolt reciprocates all the way to the back and as the bolt moves forward it picks up another round and jams it into the back of the empty. How to test? Try swap bolt carrier groups with your AR15 that has no problems. And you could have a look at extractor, extractor spring, the little O ring, and press on the ejector with something to see if the ejector is moving properly.
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Old November 25, 2019, 12:53 AM   #9
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frustrating

Nothings more frustrating than semis that won't run.

On both of your handguns, I suspect low slide velocity. Low slide velocity is either weak ammo, dirty/unlubed gun, an issue with the recoil spring, or possibly limp wristing the pistol The "smokestack" case, and the slide over live cartridge failures are very typical of a slow or sluggish slide. I'd suspect your ammo and would suggest your buy some US domestic, brass cased, big name FMJ, (read Win, Rem of Fed) clean relube your two problem children again, and shoot them again. While you state that your other 9mm pistols run your current ammo OK, that does not mean that your ammo (Tula, Fiochi and Freedom) are not causing issues with the pistols exhibiting failures. The handguns that are running could simply be more tolerant of your current ammo.

The AR pistol is a failure to extract/eject (fully). The advice of checking a second bolt group as offered by another poster is sound and easily done. If the second bolt group runs OK I'd suspect the extractor, extractor spring, and extractor spring damper (insert) in the problem assembly first. I'd clean and inspect all three, and very likely just go ahead and replace them all with quality parts. My take on your AR failures from observing your pics, is that the extractor is releasing the case early, and resultantly, the ejector cannot function as designed either. BTW, I would do the shooting with US domestic, big 3 brass case ammo just like the pistols. I am not a fan of steel case com bloc ammo in the AR. If the AR pistol continues to burp, I would swap out my ejector and ejector spring as well.

With the AR pistol, the short barrel and gas tube may be creating it's own issues, but I have no experience with AR pistols. Lack of sufficient gas to the bolt group and recoil damper and spring can cause sluggish extract/eject issues. Additionally, your bolt gas rings could be worn or out of spec creating the same low gas issue. But I'd start with good ammo and the extractor group.
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Old November 28, 2019, 09:26 AM   #10
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Your issues can be due to using too much lube.
When too much lube is used it attracts dirt and debris and tends to not only gun things up it also it can cause wear.
Check out a you tuber named gun blue 490. A couple of his videos explain how many people are creating issues because of too much lube.
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Old November 29, 2019, 12:42 PM   #11
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Swap them in for a good American built revolver. Problem solved!
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Old November 29, 2019, 01:46 PM   #12
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Pgb205, have you tried burning some sage?
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Old November 29, 2019, 05:05 PM   #13
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Pay particular attention to what dyl posted on lube. I had all kinds of weird problems after using a so called "dry lubricant" on 2 on my semiautomatics. A through cleaning and relube using regular gun oil and presto ---- problems gone.
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Old November 30, 2019, 03:36 PM   #14
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Here are the pictures of (uncleaned) BCG. I'm not sure how normal those wear patterns are. Ejector seems to work normally and gas rings as well.
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File Type: jpg 20191130_152743.jpg (61.0 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg 20191130_152708.jpg (89.1 KB, 17 views)
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Old November 30, 2019, 03:39 PM   #15
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one last picture.
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Old November 30, 2019, 04:31 PM   #16
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and the very last one from walther ppq. I'm not sure if the three wear marks with arrows next to them were there before.
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Old December 1, 2019, 02:07 PM   #17
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just came back from followup range visit.
1. Swapped fiocchi 9mm for blazer ammo. 150 rounds through walther ppq and mp9c with no malfunctions
2. Swapped BCG from my AR pistol for a brand new one. 150 rounds of tullamo with no malfunctions.

A bit disappointed that fiocchi let me down. I will see if Anderson Manufacturing will help me with either fixing or replacing the faulty BCG.

thanks all for the suggestions.
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Old December 1, 2019, 03:54 PM   #18
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I had heard of some issues with Fiocchi lately. Which stinks because it's been rock solid for me in the past.

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Old December 2, 2019, 12:58 AM   #19
dyl
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Quote:
1. Swapped fiocchi 9mm for blazer ammo. 150 rounds through walther ppq and mp9c with no malfunctions
2. Swapped BCG from my AR pistol for a brand new one. 150 rounds of tullamo with no malfunctions.

A bit disappointed that fiocchi let me down. I will see if Anderson Manufacturing will help me with either fixing or replacing the faulty BCG.
Well that's good news to me. Strange about Fiochhi, I usually think of it as loaded a bit hotter than say, Winchester White Box 115 grain. Well, maybe give them a rest until the rest of a potentially bad batch is off the shelves.

If Anderson Manufacturing won't help with the BCG, you could do an even more in depth swap: Swap the extractor, extractor spring, O ring (or whatever they call the gasket underneath the extractor) from the functional BCG to the non-functional BCG and see if it cures it. If it does then just buy a BCG parts kit, pretty cheap. If it doesn't, it could be that parts of the bolt or carrier are out of spec. But hopefully Anderson responds.
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Old December 2, 2019, 05:05 AM   #20
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Sounds like the lubricant has changed the dynamics of the recoil spring rate in the Pistols. And as the other poster pointed out possibly wearing of gloves now, causes some limp wristing since your grip has changed somewhat.
The round that gets stuck is because the receiver is jumping over the rim. Happens when shooting steel cased Tula or Wolf in a pistol, at least for me. That ammo is especially dirty. The extractor could be junked up and the feed ramp as well. Combined with gloves, and other factors could be the cause.
Just some thoughts to consider.
Also, I believe all the Freedom ammunition that I have shot is a very light load, another factor combined with the recoil spring and lubricant effect on recoil rate.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; December 2, 2019 at 05:19 AM.
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Old December 2, 2019, 03:20 PM   #21
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causes

A very high percentage of failures in semiauto firearms can be traced to ammo or magazine issues. Seems you are on the right track w/ ammo in your handguns. Good luck with the AR.
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