Help me Work up .45 ACP Load - Page 3

Stats Shooter · May 24, 2020, 09:17 PM

Winchester large pistol primers are basically a magnum primer. I use them in 45 acp and 10 mm. You will note Winchester does not have a magnum large pistol primer for that reason. They are not known to be as "hot" as labled magnum primers like cci or federal, but hotter than a standard primer. This is well known and documented on this forum.

An actual FPS increase will be powder, bullet, and gun dependent, but when you look at published load data, noting the primer used can be important.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why everyone with any experience says start low and work up your powder charges noting velocity and pressure signs. There is no such thing as "free velocity " Assuming you are using the same powder listed, same bullet, seating depth, etc, more velocity is achieved by either a longer barrel, or more pressure. ( There are ways with more volume due to longer seating depths but not generally with automatic pistols)

When i was new to reloading, i found out the hard way that lake city .308 brass had less volume than commercial. 308. I started about 3/4 the way up the powder scale and had stuck cases and pierced primers. Had i started low and worked up, would never have come to that.

Swifty Morgan · May 24, 2020, 09:43 PM

It's all going in my log for future use.

The other weird thing is the uncanny consistency I got with new Starline brass, compared to the big spread with range discards.

**44 AMP** · May 24, 2020, 10:08 PM

Quote:

There is no such thing as "free velocity " Assuming you are using the same powder listed, same bullet, seating depth, etc, more velocity is achieved by either a longer barrel, or more pressure.

Sometimes, there is such a thing as "free velocity". Some guns are just "faster" than others. It's not something easily quantified, may not be possible to do it, but sometimes, using exactly the same ammunition, different barrels produce different speeds, and sometimes the difference is enough to be significant.

Quote:

The other weird thing is the uncanny consistency I got with new Starline brass, compared to the big spread with range discards.

Why is it weird?? I'd think it was normal. New brass with as much consistency as you're going to get, short of paying to match grade stuff, vs range pick up which can be a mix of any and nearly everything.

Swifty Morgan · May 25, 2020, 11:21 AM

It's uncanny because the velocity spread was extremely tiny and because pistol reloaders confidently say the brass makes no difference. Looks like that's wrong. I guess people who can't shoot say that. If you're shooting 6" groups at 7 yards, I suppose all ammunition seems equally accurate.

I'm surprised to find out so many things that ought to be common knowledge are not commonly known. For example, if Winchester primers are really faster, everyone should know it by now. It's 2020. People shouldn't still be wondering about it. If you Google, you'll find all sorts of people who say all primers are the same.

zxcvbob · May 25, 2020, 02:16 PM

All primers are not the same, but any appropriate primer should work. If you switch primer brands, you might have to adjust your powder slightly to get back to the same load.

I use range pick-up brass, but I sort it by headstamp; seems to make a difference but part of that might be my imagination.

**44 AMP** · May 25, 2020, 03:57 PM

Quote:

because pistol reloaders confidently say the brass makes no difference.

If your standards are low enough, it doesn't make much difference.

Anyone who tells you all brass is the same, and all primers are the same simply doesn't know what they are talking about, even if they sound like they do.

You can find people saying anything on Google.

Swifty Morgan · May 25, 2020, 06:05 PM

I was looking forward to economizing on .45 brass, but if the velocity consistency translates in to accuracy, I will have to get used to buying Starline. I have a hard time willingly giving up accuracy.

Stats Shooter · May 25, 2020, 07:56 PM

Swiftly, You can find headstamp sorted once fired brass. 44 AMP is right about standards, but its also a question of : Is the juice worth the squeeze? For my F-Open mid range and long range ammo, i go through so many prep and QC checks that it would take too long to list here.

For IDPA, a 1/2 MOA improvement due to ammo quality is nt worth the time or money. I use mixed HS brasd, berrys bullets, and worry about trigger time more than time at the reloading bench. But, a bullseye shooter might stand to benefit from an accuracy gain.

Same in my .223's, if you are shooting steels on the move, that is different than 300 and 500 yard steel ram shooting.

FM12 · May 28, 2020, 08:10 PM

Ive setteled on 5.0 Bullseye for almost all weights of 45ACP. Load em up or load em down as needed.

HiBC · May 29, 2020, 10:22 AM

Swifty,for a guy who is asking for help,you seem to argue a lot.

All of this applies at the same time. You don't pick a few and leave some out.

The way you "work up" a 45 ACP load is you pick one that has already been "worked up" by those in the business who have more resources.

Bullets are manufactured to different lengths. Some 230 gr bullets are longer than others. The gun,such as a 1911,will have a maximum length the mechanics of the gun will accept. You can't use ammo that won't fit in the magazine. OK,fine. But that number has nothing to do with pressure or velocity.

For pressure,its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume. That will vary,bullet to bullet.
Thats why its good to look at Hornady data for that particular bullet.

It fine to look at Hogdon or Alliant data,but its only valid if its specified for that particular bullet.. You can get general ideas about 230 gr bullets,bt not down to the last .2 gr of powder you can get away with.

Yes,primers matter. Thats why loading manuals tell you which primer they are using.

The loading manuals will also tell you to not substitute components.

So yes,substituting a primer can boost pressure.

Despite testimony that some barrels are "faster" than others,that may well say that some barrels generate more pressure than others.

What makes more velocity butmore pressure,with the same bullet?

IMO,your chrono telling you that you have reached the published velocity figure is a far more reliable indication you have reached a given pressure than any voodoo reading of pressure signs.

If you use the published load specified primer,specified bullet,seated to specified length,with the specified powder in specified charge weights,in the specified brass,

You have no need to "work up" a load. Just select one,and work up tp spec'd max. Achieving spec'd max velocity is an indicator you have achieved max for your gun.

Mixd brass? Another brand of 230 gr bullet? an alternative primer?

No probem! If you read your manual,you will see it says "back off 10%"

Do that,and sneak back up to the published velocity. Or maybe a little less.

Its best to have a margin of safety to cover variables.

One of which,is your powder scales. Do you have a set of test weights? Have you calibrated your scale?

How much sense does it make to talk about backing off 0.2 of a grain from "too hot" if you don't test weight your scales?

This thread has chased around the chaos of picking and choosing the variables. You combine the variables you have overlooked ( deep seating depth,hot primer,and maybe a non calibrated scale.....

Its nuts to even discuss if you want to argue through it.

With a "correct" load,your gun will run happy. The brass won't be flung thirty feet. Your velocity will be appropriate.
If those don't happen,then hunt down "Why?" Seating too deep is a "Why" Substituting a hotter primer is a "Why"

Mixed brass? No problem! But lower your velocity expectations and back off a bit.

A box stock 1911 will run and shoot accurately with less than max loads. Thats where you can load your "mix and match" components. On the mild side.

If you want peak velocities,you have to eliminate variables. Attention to details.

What may be contrary to your beliefs,800 fps instead of 900 fps will have no effect on your testosterone levels.

**Aguila Blanca** · May 29, 2020, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

For pressure,its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume. That will vary,bullet to bullet.
Thats why its good to look at Hornady data for that particular bullet.

And none of the manuals will have all the bullets available on the market. That's why some of the folks on the M1911.org forum started collecting data on bullets. One of their members put it all into a spreadsheet that he posted on Google Docs as a reference for this exact purpose -- to allow people trying to work up loads using bullets that have no published data to compare those bullets to bullets with known data and get a better estimate on seating depth ... and, indirectly, anticipated pressure.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=519572970

Even within bullets of the same weight, it was surprising to me to see how much variation there is on bullet length, and in bullet body length. It made me even less inclined to pay attention to Berry's advice that you can use data for any bullet of the same weight (which gets Berry's off the hook with respect to generating load data for their bullets). I never liked that, and I found that loading their bullets using data for other projectiles always resulted in considerably less velocity than expected. Once I saw how short their 230-grain round nose bullet is compared to others, I understood why.

If you can find your bullet in that list, you can use the data to figure your seating depth, and that's what you need to know.

**44 AMP** · May 29, 2020, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Despite testimony that some barrels are "faster" than others,that may well say that some barrels generate more pressure than others.

I was with you, up to that point...

Barrels don't generate pressure. The powder burning does that. If anything, barrels "generate" resistance (friction) to the bullet passing through that the pressure has to overcome.

And this is where you get one gun (barrel) being faster, or slower than another. Every barrel and bullet combination is slightly different from every other one. Everything has tolerances and exactly how those differences interact ("line up" determines the velocity performance you can measure.

Most combinations are SIMILAR, but not exact duplicates, which is why the data is useful as GUIDLINES.

Quote:

Achieving spec'd max velocity is an indicator you have achieved max for your gun.

No, actually, it's not. It's an indicator that you have achieved a listed velocity that the industry has decided is the safe working max for ALL guns in that caliber with that bullet weight (and barrel length).

Published max loads are a prudent place to stop, but don't confuse SAAMI limits with the strength and safety limits of your gun.

The test firearm MATTERS, in comparison to your gun. What they got as a max (or where they decided to stop, and call that max) in their gun can be different than your gun.

Velocity numbers alone must be adjusted, or compensated for, in your head, to be in line with what you are shooting from. Achieving the listed max velocity that someone else got with their gun doesn't mean you have reached max (pressure limits) in your gun. You may be past the SAAMI spec, OR you might be considerably under it, DEPENDING ON YOUR GUN!

As an example, lets say load XYZ has a published max velocity of 850fps from a 5" barrel. If I shoot that exact load from another 5" I might get what they got, or I might get a higher or lower number.

IF I shoot that load from a 4.25" barrel I'm very likely to get a lower speed. Shoot it from a 7.5" and I'm likely to get a higher speed.

If, for example, my 4" gets 780fps where their max is 850 does that mean I can add powder until I get 850, and then stop, because its the book listed max? No.

If my 7.5" gets 925fps with the book max load, does this mean I have to reduce the load, because I'm above listed book max velocity?

No.

SAAMI limits are for INDUSTRY. They are prudent, safe, and well below the physical safety limits for your gun. Things do not blow up if you go to SAAMI +.1... you have to go much, much further than that to be at actual risk of mechanical failure. And, if you do go there, its entirely on you.

HiBC · May 29, 2020, 03:44 PM

44AMP,Its all close enough I'll say "I agree with you"

Example "Barrels do not generate pressure,the powder burn and resistance generate the pressure"

Of course,your version is a better way to say it.

And I also know if I fit the lugs to perfect blue off,use quality parts,fit a square bottom firing pin stop and a fairly heavy hammer spring,the Gun can handle a little more pressure. If I use 45 Super brass,yet a little more. I'm not a big fan of ramped barrels in a 45 ACP,but with full support,we can go some more pressure.

I've explored all that.

The OP asked about "How do I work up a load for 45 ACP."

I responded to the question by assuming box stock 1911,semi-inexperienced reloader and safe,reasonable guidelines.

I also have access to a Ben Jones GunCraft 38 Super race gun I gave to my brother that has been rocking 40.000 psi plus loads ince the single stack 38 Super days of the 1970's. Its in great shape,runs like a watch and uses a 12 lb recoil spring.

If the need is a good load to shoot up a qty of a particular 230 gr bullet,I've outgrown the mindset of 900 fps +

I've been handloading over 50 years and I've built enough 1911s to understand them pretty well.

**Unclenick** · May 29, 2020, 09:29 PM

Board member Clark used to blow guns up on purpose as part of his engineering work. He reported it is generally not easy to do. Hatcher's notebook has photos of a Springfield barrel (30-06, of course) that Hatcher turned down to 1/16" wall thickness down its length and around front end of the chamber and the gun fired three rounds of military ball ammo successfully, but burst around the neck and forward of it when a proof round was fired in it. That gives you some sense that most of the metal weight in your gun is for longevity and to prevent really wild bending and flexing under recoil that would make accuracy very problematic to achieve. Steel is strong stuff.

Brass failure is another matter. I've seen more than one piece of failed brass, not counting head or neck separations or splits, and numerous pierced primers over time. These things can go south on you and will do so long before the steel is threatened in most guns. Revolvers, particularly those with thin outside chamber walls, are an exception wherein sticky extraction may be the only warning you get before reaching a failure pressure, and the brass may still look just fine before then. Also, excessive rifle loads can fatigue or crack bolt lugs. Cases sticking in chambers are the result of the steel around them stretching beyond the elastic limit of the brass, and then returning to size over top of the case, clamping it tight.

It should be mentioned, since AB provided us with the nice list of lengths, how seating depth is calculated. Since real cases vary a little in length, but the seating die stays in the same place, for this calculation, it is best just to use the SAAMI maximum case length as a convenient reference number.

Where the same length unit is used with all, the general form is:

Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL

For 45 Auto using inches as the length unit:

Seating Depth = 0.898 in + Bullet Length - COL

What you can tell from velocity: If two powders produce the same velocity with the same bullet, you know the average pressure during the bullet's travel down the tube was the same for both powders. This is because average pressure determines the average force on the bullet base, and the average force determines the average acceleration two identical bullets will experience. Indeed, the average force multiplied by the barrel length in feet is the amount of work done to get the bullet up to speed, and that work is calculated by multiply that distance in feet by the average pounds of force to give the answer in foot-pounds. Since kinetic energy is equal to the work put into getting the bullet up to speed, this exact same number with the exact same units is the kinetic energy of the bullet in foot-pounds as well. So, divide the muzzle energy by the barrel length in feet and you have average pounds of force during the bullet's trip down the barrel. Divide that by the bullet's cross-sectional area and you have average pressure.

But you can arrive at an average by having a high peak pressure and a low muzzle pressure or by having a lower peak pressure and a higher muzzle pressure. Those two scenarios are what fast and slow powders produce, respectively. So, even though you can learn the average pressure in the barrel, from breech to muzzle, from the kinetic energy of the bullet, you don't know the ratio of the peak to the muzzle pressure from that, so you cannot determine peak pressure from it. What you can say, in general, is that if you have the same barrel length as a published pressure and velocity load is developed in with a particular powder, such as is published by Hodgdon, if your velocity for that barrel length is lower, your peak pressure was lower, and if your velocity is higher, your peak pressure was higher. That's about the extent of it.

This illustrates two identical bullets getting to the same velocity with a load of fast powder and a load of slow powder:

HiBC · May 29, 2020, 09:59 PM

Thank you Uncle Nick.

I have a question. I understand what you said about some powders having higher peak pressure.

Suppose I'm loading any recommended powder...Lets say W231

I'm shooting a 5 in bbl 1911. My book says max load is 5.8 gr for 790 fps.

Suppose all my components match the manual. If I get 790 fps at 5.5 gr,

Should I assume I have probably duplicated max pressure at 790 fps in my gun with 5.5 gr,

Or do I assume I have a "fast barrel" and load 5.8 gr for 830 fps ?

I'm under the impression,with limited resources,I should assume I have reached the pressure if I have reached the velocity.published for that powder.

I'm talking general guideline for the handloader.

**44 AMP** · May 29, 2020, 11:42 PM

I think you should assume you need another book. Or three...

Part of the difficulty discussing these things is that while we can measure velocity well with modern chronographs, we can't measure the actual pressure created, and have to rely on general numbers others have measured in their equipment, or on what a computer program says (and always remember GIGO)

Another problem is the tendency of people to look at these things as absolutes, and, they aren't.

One of the points I don't quite get is how people can accept differences in the ammo, shot to shot variation, extreme spread, standard deviation, etc., and yet think that chronograph readings from different guns and loads should be exactly the same.

Handloading is "cookbook chemistry" but its not as precise as some folks think it ought to be, based on their questions and remarks.

Ever notice how some cooking instructions include a statement about how cooking times may vary due to different ovens???

Well here we have a situation where your oven is not identical to their oven, and even though you try (and get close) your ingredients are not identical to their ingredients, so while they may bake for 14min and 15 seconds to get it to come out "perfect" you might need to bake for 15 minutes, or perhaps only 13 to get the same results (or as close to the same as possible).

Seems that most of the folks saying "they got this, and I did the same and got that..." aren't taking the differences into account.

One of the things a chronograph taught me is that different guns, even nominally identical ones, shooting the same ammo load will produce different results. USUALLY the results are close so they are useful guidelines, but sometimes they aren't close (at either end of the bell curve) and you only find that out by shooting. When the stars line up the right way, you could be at either the high or low end, not in the middle.

I don't fret over a handful of FPS. When/if the difference between "identical" guns and loads gets to about 100fps (and I've seen that though its not common) THEN I start looking for why...and sometimes, the answer is just "different guns, different results".

**Aguila Blanca** · May 29, 2020, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

I have a question. I understand what you said about some powders having higher peak pressure.

Suppose I'm loading any recommended powder...Lets say W231

I'm shooting a 5 in bbl 1911. My book says max load is 5.8 gr for 790 fps.

Suppose all my components match the manual. If I get 790 fps at 5.5 gr,

Should I assume I have probably duplicated max pressure at 790 fps in my gun with 5.5 gr,

Or do I assume I have a "fast barrel" and load 5.8 gr for 830 fps ?

I'm under the impression,with limited resources,I should assume I have reached the pressure if I have reached the velocity.published for that powder.

I dunno about you, but if I have matched the published recipe exactly (meaning the same brass, same primer, same bullet, same powder and charge, and same C.O.A.L.), I stop at the max load and the velocity is what it is.

If I've changed something, all bets are off. As it happens, I use Winchester 231 for .45 ACP. And I use Winchester brass and primers. But I load Berry's 230-grain bullets, and the velocities are significantly lower than the Winchester/Hodgdon web site led me to expect. Looking at the data from that spreadsheet that the guys on M1911.org have compiled, it's easy to see why. The Berry's 230-grain bullet is shorter than most in the same weight, and I load to a comparatively long C.O.A.L. of 1.270 rather than 1.200.

Consequently, although the web site says 5.3 grains is the max, I'm loading 5.3 grains and not getting anywhere close to 834 fps. In fact, because I use a Lee Autodisc powder measure, it's not possible to dial in the charges to the nearest tenth (unless I wanted to permanently modify the disc -- which I don't want to do). So I'm using the disc aperture that's closest to where I want to be. If a few charges are 5.4 grains, I don't think that's cause for concern due to the extra case volume I've got under the bullet.

On the other hand, I'm only loading for plinking so if the nearest aperture only threw 5.1 or 5.2 grains, I'd be perfectly happy with that, as well.

**Unclenick** · May 30, 2020, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiBC

Should I assume I have probably duplicated max pressure at 790 fps in my gun with 5.5 gr

HiBC,

The Bad News:

You should assume your pressure is higher than the book value. With a smaller dose of powder in the case, your powder is making a smaller total gas quantity. This means the muzzle pressure will be lower, producing less late-barrel acceleration. So, to have the same velocity, you must be getting more early-barrel acceleration to make up for what is missing at the barrel and that can only come from higher peak pressure. Whether your velocity difference is due to having a powder lot with a faster burn rate than the test data powder had or is due to differences in bore dimensions or surface roughness in the throat. I add that last point because we know that if one switches from plain jacketed bullets to the same bullets with moly or hBN anti-friction coatings, velocity for a given powder charge goes down. This is caused by the loss of resistance for the powder to build pressure against. So it follows that if friction is higher in your gun, velocity per grain of powder will go up.

The Good News:

The authors of the load manuals have made some allowance for this by the way they develop loads. You may have noticed that maximum loads data from Lyman or Hodgdon, where pressure measurements are given, are never at the maximum pressure. That is not how the SAAMI system works, though the SAAMI system is for manufacturers primarily and handloaders only incidentally. In the SAAMI system, ten rounds are fired and if the average peak pressure that results does not exceed the Maximum Average Pressure, they say you are good to go. The load manual authors know the handloader will often want to use whatever powder they have on hand, and will, therefore, make some choices that aren't entirely appropriate and that produces wider pressure variation than the SAAMI standard allows for (5% peak pressure SD for handgun cartridges and 4% for rifle cartridges). Rather than fight that, they go ahead publish loads for those marginal powders, but to keep the pressure variation under the radar, they do not allow the average peak pressure to go all the way to the SAAMI MAP. Instead, they use that MAP as a maximum number and keep the highest sample variation in their test lot down to that SAAMI MAP number. Thus, you get the following difference between manufactured ammo loaded to the upper SAAMI limit with an appropriate powder and how the same pressure variation is handled by handload recipe data:

This approach has an interesting consequence. In addition to providing some protection against powders that may vary too much, and providing some margin for faster-than-average powder lots and for fast barrels and for people who try to push things, it gives you help selecting a powder. That is because you know the powder with the highest maximum pressure limit in the list is the one that exhibited the lowest pressure variation among them all during testing. That makes it a good candidate for long-range shooting, in particular, if the velocity is acceptable. You can usually find more that one powder near the highest number and have a group of most-consistent powders to choose from.

Incidentally, regarding Starline 45 Auto brass, I once weighed a bunch of it and some Winchester and Federal and IMI Match. Starline had half the weight variation of the others, which were all about the same. So it is, in fact, more consistent than some other makes. Top Brass was also consistent like that, but they don't seem to sell 45 Auto anymore.

HiBC · May 31, 2020, 09:03 AM

Thank You Unclenick,for your time and thorough answer.

You only melted a few of my remaining brain cells.

Once again I am reminded that the end result is often determined by more variables than the obvious.

It still seems prudent to consider achieving max published velocity with a lesser charge a sign its best to not add more powder.

Also thank you for this nugget to take away. :It seems useful for powder selection.

Quote:

This approach has an interesting consequence. In addition to providing some protection against powders that may vary too much, and providing some margin for faster-than-average powder lots and for fast barrels and for people who try to push things, it gives you help selecting a powder. That is because you know the powder with the highest maximum pressure limit in the list is the one that exhibited the lowest pressure variation among them all during testing. That makes it a good candidate for long-range shooting, in particular, if the velocity is acceptable. You can usually find more that one powder near the highest number and have a group of most-consistent powders to choose from.

mkl · May 31, 2020, 03:05 PM

Several years ago when I was working with the .45ACP I came across some excellent results using Winchester Super Field (WSF). A couple of years later I found a chart which shows WSF as having the same burn rate as Unique.

Looks like I reinvented the wheel. It did seem to burn a little cleaner though.

Expand the jpg to about 200% for easier reading.

ToddRvs66 · May 31, 2020, 04:46 PM

I load quite a bit of 200 grain bullets and they are very accurate and easy to load.

If you are interested I have a video of 200 grain and 230 grain reloads with velocity and accuracy tests up on my youtube page

https://youtu.be/S7KPQ4EzBaw

I have loaded the Hornady 200 XTP and Speer 200 Grain JHP to quite high velocity and used the load for hunting deer and hog.

In fact I use a hot loaded XTP 200 grain at about 1047 FPS to take a deer this past season with my 45 acp 1911 Government model. Granted this is a very hot load but I have worked up to it and it is safe in my pistol. I have harvested 2 deer and 4 hogs with this load in the past.

The deer I shot this past season was standing broadside at 35 yards and I took him with a single 200grain XTP handload. The buck was a nice basket 8 pointer and ran only about 50 yards before piling up. The 200 grain XTP caught him in the chest after nicking the shoulder blade then punching through coming to rest just under the hide on the far side of the animal. The XTP was mushroomed and held almost all of it's weight.

This load is also very accurate as well I can get 2 inch groups at 25 yards all day long and I have no problem ringing a 10 inch steel plate at 75 yards.

The load I used is

11.8 grains of Accur #7 with Winchester cases and CCI Large Pistol Primers seated to a COAL 1.225.

I must stress before using this load back off about 2 grains and work up from there. As this is a very hot load.

May 24, 2020, 09:43 PM	#52
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	It's all going in my log for future use. The other weird thing is the uncanny consistency I got with new Starline brass, compared to the big spread with range discards. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

May 25, 2020, 11:21 AM	#54
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	It's uncanny because the velocity spread was extremely tiny and because pistol reloaders confidently say the brass makes no difference. Looks like that's wrong. I guess people who can't shoot say that. If you're shooting 6" groups at 7 yards, I suppose all ammunition seems equally accurate. I'm surprised to find out so many things that ought to be common knowledge are not commonly known. For example, if Winchester primers are really faster, everyone should know it by now. It's 2020. People shouldn't still be wondering about it. If you Google, you'll find all sorts of people who say all primers are the same. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

May 25, 2020, 02:16 PM	#55
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	All primers are not the same, but any appropriate primer should work. If you switch primer brands, you might have to adjust your powder slightly to get back to the same load. I use range pick-up brass, but I sort it by headstamp; seems to make a difference but part of that might be my imagination. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

May 25, 2020, 06:05 PM	#57
Swifty Morgan Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2018 Location: FL Posts: 467	I was looking forward to economizing on .45 brass, but if the velocity consistency translates in to accuracy, I will have to get used to buying Starline. I have a hard time willingly giving up accuracy. __________________ People who think their guns shoot better than they do must not be shooting much rimfire.

May 29, 2020, 10:22 AM	#60
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	Swifty,for a guy who is asking for help,you seem to argue a lot. All of this applies at the same time. You don't pick a few and leave some out. The way you "work up" a 45 ACP load is you pick one that has already been "worked up" by those in the business who have more resources. Bullets are manufactured to different lengths. Some 230 gr bullets are longer than others. The gun,such as a 1911,will have a maximum length the mechanics of the gun will accept. You can't use ammo that won't fit in the magazine. OK,fine. But that number has nothing to do with pressure or velocity. For pressure,its the depth of the bullet base that determines combustion chamber volume. That will vary,bullet to bullet. Thats why its good to look at Hornady data for that particular bullet. It fine to look at Hogdon or Alliant data,but its only valid if its specified for that particular bullet.. You can get general ideas about 230 gr bullets,bt not down to the last .2 gr of powder you can get away with. Yes,primers matter. Thats why loading manuals tell you which primer they are using. The loading manuals will also tell you to not substitute components. So yes,substituting a primer can boost pressure. Despite testimony that some barrels are "faster" than others,that may well say that some barrels generate more pressure than others. What makes more velocity butmore pressure,with the same bullet? IMO,your chrono telling you that you have reached the published velocity figure is a far more reliable indication you have reached a given pressure than any voodoo reading of pressure signs. If you use the published load specified primer,specified bullet,seated to specified length,with the specified powder in specified charge weights,in the specified brass, You have no need to "work up" a load. Just select one,and work up tp spec'd max. Achieving spec'd max velocity is an indicator you have achieved max for your gun. Mixd brass? Another brand of 230 gr bullet? an alternative primer? No probem! If you read your manual,you will see it says "back off 10%" Do that,and sneak back up to the published velocity. Or maybe a little less. Its best to have a margin of safety to cover variables. One of which,is your powder scales. Do you have a set of test weights? Have you calibrated your scale? How much sense does it make to talk about backing off 0.2 of a grain from "too hot" if you don't test weight your scales? This thread has chased around the chaos of picking and choosing the variables. You combine the variables you have overlooked ( deep seating depth,hot primer,and maybe a non calibrated scale..... Its nuts to even discuss if you want to argue through it. With a "correct" load,your gun will run happy. The brass won't be flung thirty feet. Your velocity will be appropriate. If those don't happen,then hunt down "Why?" Seating too deep is a "Why" Substituting a hotter primer is a "Why" Mixed brass? No problem! But lower your velocity expectations and back off a bit. A box stock 1911 will run and shoot accurately with less than max loads. Thats where you can load your "mix and match" components. On the mild side. If you want peak velocities,you have to eliminate variables. Attention to details. What may be contrary to your beliefs,800 fps instead of 900 fps will have no effect on your testosterone levels. Last edited by HiBC; May 29, 2020 at 10:31 AM.

May 24, 2020, 09:17 PM	#51
Stats Shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2016 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,636	Winchester large pistol primers are basically a magnum primer. I use them in 45 acp and 10 mm. You will note Winchester does not have a magnum large pistol primer for that reason. They are not known to be as "hot" as labled magnum primers like cci or federal, but hotter than a standard primer. This is well known and documented on this forum. An actual FPS increase will be powder, bullet, and gun dependent, but when you look at published load data, noting the primer used can be important. I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is why everyone with any experience says start low and work up your powder charges noting velocity and pressure signs. There is no such thing as "free velocity " Assuming you are using the same powder listed, same bullet, seating depth, etc, more velocity is achieved by either a longer barrel, or more pressure. ( There are ways with more volume due to longer seating depths but not generally with automatic pistols) When i was new to reloading, i found out the hard way that lake city .308 brass had less volume than commercial. 308. I started about 3/4 the way up the powder scale and had stuck cases and pierced primers. Had i started low and worked up, would never have come to that.

May 25, 2020, 07:56 PM	#58
Stats Shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2016 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,636	Swiftly, You can find headstamp sorted once fired brass. 44 AMP is right about standards, but its also a question of : Is the juice worth the squeeze? For my F-Open mid range and long range ammo, i go through so many prep and QC checks that it would take too long to list here. For IDPA, a 1/2 MOA improvement due to ammo quality is nt worth the time or money. I use mixed HS brasd, berrys bullets, and worry about trigger time more than time at the reloading bench. But, a bullseye shooter might stand to benefit from an accuracy gain. Same in my .223's, if you are shooting steels on the move, that is different than 300 and 500 yard steel ram shooting.

May 28, 2020, 08:10 PM	#59
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Ive setteled on 5.0 Bullseye for almost all weights of 45ACP. Load em up or load em down as needed.

May 29, 2020, 03:44 PM	#63
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	44AMP,Its all close enough I'll say "I agree with you" Example "Barrels do not generate pressure,the powder burn and resistance generate the pressure" Of course,your version is a better way to say it. And I also know if I fit the lugs to perfect blue off,use quality parts,fit a square bottom firing pin stop and a fairly heavy hammer spring,the Gun can handle a little more pressure. If I use 45 Super brass,yet a little more. I'm not a big fan of ramped barrels in a 45 ACP,but with full support,we can go some more pressure. I've explored all that. The OP asked about "How do I work up a load for 45 ACP." I responded to the question by assuming box stock 1911,semi-inexperienced reloader and safe,reasonable guidelines. I also have access to a Ben Jones GunCraft 38 Super race gun I gave to my brother that has been rocking 40.000 psi plus loads ince the single stack 38 Super days of the 1970's. Its in great shape,runs like a watch and uses a 12 lb recoil spring. If the need is a good load to shoot up a qty of a particular 230 gr bullet,I've outgrown the mindset of 900 fps + I've been handloading over 50 years and I've built enough 1911s to understand them pretty well.

May 29, 2020, 09:29 PM	#64
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Board member Clark used to blow guns up on purpose as part of his engineering work. He reported it is generally not easy to do. Hatcher's notebook has photos of a Springfield barrel (30-06, of course) that Hatcher turned down to 1/16" wall thickness down its length and around front end of the chamber and the gun fired three rounds of military ball ammo successfully, but burst around the neck and forward of it when a proof round was fired in it. That gives you some sense that most of the metal weight in your gun is for longevity and to prevent really wild bending and flexing under recoil that would make accuracy very problematic to achieve. Steel is strong stuff. Brass failure is another matter. I've seen more than one piece of failed brass, not counting head or neck separations or splits, and numerous pierced primers over time. These things can go south on you and will do so long before the steel is threatened in most guns. Revolvers, particularly those with thin outside chamber walls, are an exception wherein sticky extraction may be the only warning you get before reaching a failure pressure, and the brass may still look just fine before then. Also, excessive rifle loads can fatigue or crack bolt lugs. Cases sticking in chambers are the result of the steel around them stretching beyond the elastic limit of the brass, and then returning to size over top of the case, clamping it tight. It should be mentioned, since AB provided us with the nice list of lengths, how seating depth is calculated. Since real cases vary a little in length, but the seating die stays in the same place, for this calculation, it is best just to use the SAAMI maximum case length as a convenient reference number. Where the same length unit is used with all, the general form is: Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL For 45 Auto using inches as the length unit: Seating Depth = 0.898 in + Bullet Length - COL What you can tell from velocity: If two powders produce the same velocity with the same bullet, you know the average pressure during the bullet's travel down the tube was the same for both powders. This is because average pressure determines the average force on the bullet base, and the average force determines the average acceleration two identical bullets will experience. Indeed, the average force multiplied by the barrel length in feet is the amount of work done to get the bullet up to speed, and that work is calculated by multiply that distance in feet by the average pounds of force to give the answer in foot-pounds. Since kinetic energy is equal to the work put into getting the bullet up to speed, this exact same number with the exact same units is the kinetic energy of the bullet in foot-pounds as well. So, divide the muzzle energy by the barrel length in feet and you have average pounds of force during the bullet's trip down the barrel. Divide that by the bullet's cross-sectional area and you have average pressure. But you can arrive at an average by having a high peak pressure and a low muzzle pressure or by having a lower peak pressure and a higher muzzle pressure. Those two scenarios are what fast and slow powders produce, respectively. So, even though you can learn the average pressure in the barrel, from breech to muzzle, from the kinetic energy of the bullet, you don't know the ratio of the peak to the muzzle pressure from that, so you cannot determine peak pressure from it. What you can say, in general, is that if you have the same barrel length as a published pressure and velocity load is developed in with a particular powder, such as is published by Hodgdon, if your velocity for that barrel length is lower, your peak pressure was lower, and if your velocity is higher, your peak pressure was higher. That's about the extent of it. This illustrates two identical bullets getting to the same velocity with a load of fast powder and a load of slow powder: __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 29, 2020, 09:59 PM	#65
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	Thank you Uncle Nick. I have a question. I understand what you said about some powders having higher peak pressure. Suppose I'm loading any recommended powder...Lets say W231 I'm shooting a 5 in bbl 1911. My book says max load is 5.8 gr for 790 fps. Suppose all my components match the manual. If I get 790 fps at 5.5 gr, Should I assume I have probably duplicated max pressure at 790 fps in my gun with 5.5 gr, Or do I assume I have a "fast barrel" and load 5.8 gr for 830 fps ? I'm under the impression,with limited resources,I should assume I have reached the pressure if I have reached the velocity.published for that powder. I'm talking general guideline for the handloader. Last edited by HiBC; May 29, 2020 at 10:05 PM.

May 29, 2020, 11:42 PM	#66
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	I think you should assume you need another book. Or three... Part of the difficulty discussing these things is that while we can measure velocity well with modern chronographs, we can't measure the actual pressure created, and have to rely on general numbers others have measured in their equipment, or on what a computer program says (and always remember GIGO) Another problem is the tendency of people to look at these things as absolutes, and, they aren't. One of the points I don't quite get is how people can accept differences in the ammo, shot to shot variation, extreme spread, standard deviation, etc., and yet think that chronograph readings from different guns and loads should be exactly the same. Handloading is "cookbook chemistry" but its not as precise as some folks think it ought to be, based on their questions and remarks. Ever notice how some cooking instructions include a statement about how cooking times may vary due to different ovens??? Well here we have a situation where your oven is not identical to their oven, and even though you try (and get close) your ingredients are not identical to their ingredients, so while they may bake for 14min and 15 seconds to get it to come out "perfect" you might need to bake for 15 minutes, or perhaps only 13 to get the same results (or as close to the same as possible). Seems that most of the folks saying "they got this, and I did the same and got that..." aren't taking the differences into account. One of the things a chronograph taught me is that different guns, even nominally identical ones, shooting the same ammo load will produce different results. USUALLY the results are close so they are useful guidelines, but sometimes they aren't close (at either end of the bell curve) and you only find that out by shooting. When the stars line up the right way, you could be at either the high or low end, not in the middle. I don't fret over a handful of FPS. When/if the difference between "identical" guns and loads gets to about 100fps (and I've seen that though its not common) THEN I start looking for why...and sometimes, the answer is just "different guns, different results". __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 31, 2020, 04:46 PM	#71
ToddRvs66 Member Join Date: March 25, 2020 Posts: 20	I load quite a bit of 200 grain bullets and they are very accurate and easy to load. If you are interested I have a video of 200 grain and 230 grain reloads with velocity and accuracy tests up on my youtube page https://youtu.be/S7KPQ4EzBaw I have loaded the Hornady 200 XTP and Speer 200 Grain JHP to quite high velocity and used the load for hunting deer and hog. In fact I use a hot loaded XTP 200 grain at about 1047 FPS to take a deer this past season with my 45 acp 1911 Government model. Granted this is a very hot load but I have worked up to it and it is safe in my pistol. I have harvested 2 deer and 4 hogs with this load in the past. The deer I shot this past season was standing broadside at 35 yards and I took him with a single 200grain XTP handload. The buck was a nice basket 8 pointer and ran only about 50 yards before piling up. The 200 grain XTP caught him in the chest after nicking the shoulder blade then punching through coming to rest just under the hide on the far side of the animal. The XTP was mushroomed and held almost all of it's weight. This load is also very accurate as well I can get 2 inch groups at 25 yards all day long and I have no problem ringing a 10 inch steel plate at 75 yards. The load I used is 11.8 grains of Accur #7 with Winchester cases and CCI Large Pistol Primers seated to a COAL 1.225. I must stress before using this load back off about 2 grains and work up from there. As this is a very hot load.